• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:42
CEST 22:42
KST 05:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2913Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format12[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!1Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back10BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 29 Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back Is the larve respawn broken? Interview with an American 16 Year Old Grandmaster Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format
Tourneys
WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event HomeStory Cup 29 Vespene Cup #1 — $300+ USD, July 10
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family
Brood War
General
Pros Debate: Zerg Unfairly Nerfed? (ASL S22 map) screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL22] Wildcard Qualifier [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues IPSL Spring 2026 Top 4!
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Summer Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Power Rank Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
The Experiences We Want and …
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5416 users

GSL Finals to be held on April 5th from GOM eXP studio - P…

Forum Index > SC2 General
121 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
KelsierSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United Kingdom10443 Posts
April 01 2014 05:20 GMT
#121
So I am really pumped to watch the GSL final, think it is going to be a sick series.

But I kind of feel like the build up/ hype has been a bit...not sure

It's like hey guys wassup, btw finals is in 5 days kthxbye
Zerg for Life
TRaFFiC
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-01 08:02:36
April 01 2014 07:56 GMT
#122
+ Show Spoiler +


On March 31 2014 08:47 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2014 21:17 TRaFFiC wrote:
On March 30 2014 19:24 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 30 2014 18:51 McRatyn wrote:
On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:


Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.

Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego.


Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill?

All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well.

I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels.


Don't know about you but pure results hype me alomost as, if not the same, as "cool" play. And when you say that he wins with "mediocore" games, how does that make his opponents look like?


Well, considering the fact that the game is artificially balanced (as opposed to most physical sports), the possibility that it isn't balanced always exists and always will exist. That leaves the burden of proof of skill either on the players (to demonstrate) or the casters (to explain). soO's gotten to two finals, yeah that's kind of impressive, but then again Inca got to the finals. Are you gonna tell me Inca's skill rivals the skill of other GSL finalists? No, luck, balance, meta, and whatever else were on his side. I personally haven't seen omgwtf-level play out of soO and Artosis wasn't able to work his magic to explain what makes soO so good last season, so, I dunno what to tell you.

For me it takes Soulkey levels of consistency to like a player who doesn't always look spectacular while winning.


If you want to watch funky builds, go watch RuFF on twitch.tv and you'll see 1 base ghost builds, 2 base mech vs protoss, 4 port banshee, proxy mine drops etc. He's done very well for himself, but fact of the matter is he's a rank 30 gm on NA and probably wouldn't make gm on Korea. This game isn't about being flashy. It's about WINNING.


Which makes it even more impressive when players manage to win utilizing a signature style that others aren't able to pull off, ie. Life's lings, Kangho's Queens, Soulkey's aggressive Swarm Host, Scarlett's creep, Jaedong's Mutas, hyvaa's sOs-like insanity, DRG's eternal Lair tech and Roro's eternal turtle-mode in metas that don't favor them. Although I might hate Roro anyway just because.

Show nested quote +
You say he doesn't appear to be playing at a world class level. That's quite the assertion to make. Who are you? A gm player, talent scout, coach? Your opinion is controversial, but also likely worthless. He beat world class players to make it to where he is.


I didn't say soO's not a good player, I said he doesn't appear to be playing at a world class level. Obviously he is a good player. He might even be world class (though I seriously doubt it). But because he doesn't do anything flashy (like use micro-intensive units in a way that makes our heads spin, which is kind of a pre-req for world-class skill in my book), and because apparently the English commentators are fundamentally incapable of pointing out all of the right unflashy moves that he makes often enough to get to Code S finals twice, I won't have any way to know until he proves it with Soulkey-esque consistency.

The only way this is controversial is if you go into the game assuming both that it's perfectly balanced, and perfectly rewarding of skill, at all times. Both of those seem like faulty assumptions to me. There's a reason we have patches, and some units/strats inherently take more mechanical skill to pull off than their counter-strats, or vice versa. Or if you think that making it to two GSL finals during the same meta is hard proof of "world class skill" in and of itself. But unless your world class is big enough to include like 50 players (in which case that's not world class, that's just Koreans), I disagree.

Show nested quote +
Inca made it to the finals when the game was still young and not figured out. The meta game has evolved since then. The strategies are for the most part figured out. Soo is on one of the strongest teams in the world, competing in the hardest leagues in the world, playing the best players in the world etc. It's not even comparable the level of skill.


Every single thing you said about soO was true of Roro when he won his GSL at the end of WOL. Good team (less good than soO's), hardest league, playing best players (harder vs. lineup than soO's). And WOL was a lot more figured out then than HOTS is now. So I guess it's just an inarguable fact that Roro had world class skill and deserved to win a GSL...?

edit: let's bring some RL sports into this. If you followed Sochi Olympics hockey, you'd know that there was a lot of controversy around the way the subpar teams were playing. They played very defensive, boring hockey, because they knew they could never win a straight up game. Sound familiar? (In SC it's usually the opposite, inferior players play very aggressive games; but the idea is the same) These teams' hope was keeping the score 0-0 until the shootout, and in a shootout anything is possible. Viewers hated it and talked about changes the rules of the game to disencourage this style of play. Seriously. Changing the rules of hockey. They wanted to see manly macro hockey games where the inferior team lost in a way that demonstrated their inferiority.

And the inferior teams did lose. But if they had won, nobody would have said they were good teams. Winning is a lot, but it isn't everything.


@purewasted
I agree that it is impressive when a player can pull off a unique play-style in a high profile match. That is what most impresses me about SOS and Bomber. However, casters try and stereotype players and put them in strategical boxes because it makes the game more interesting and easier to understand for the newer viewers. That said, all the top players have those abilities and it is in any pro player's interest to branch their play out so as to not be predictable. In reality, these stereotypes have little more value than rascist ones like "All asian are smart." Scarlett isn't the only zerg who can spread creep and Life isn't the only top zerg who uses lings and counterattacks.

We are seeing "world class" as different things. For me, a player doesn't need to be consistent to be world class. Skill is in the present. How many people are in this group is open to interpretation.

I do believe the game is balanced. That's the way world class players see it too. It's hard to win when you think you're at a disadvantage. Notice in Flash's interviews he doesn't blame his losses on Protoss despite his trouble with that race.

As for boring play, I guess I'm just easily pleased. But I will say, with so much money on the line, I don't think a gsl finals is the time to break the meta (even though MVP did just that when he made bcs vs Squirtle).
2v2, 1v1, Zerg, Terran http://www.twitch.tv/trafficsc2
Prev 1 5 6 7 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 197
Railgan 77
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2206
Britney 638
ggaemo 179
firebathero 133
ZZZero.O 0
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu292
Other Games
Grubby3484
tarik_tv2135
Liquid`RaSZi943
fl0m842
Beastyqt584
C9.Mang0252
RotterdaM230
mouzStarbuck130
XaKoH 129
Livibee83
SteadfastSC52
CosmosSc2 19
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2407
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 119
• Reevou 3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1096
• Shiphtur316
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
12h 18m
CrankTV Team League
14h 18m
Replay Cast
1d 12h
CrankTV Team League
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Clem vs Lambo
Scarlett vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
IPSL
2 days
Dragon vs Hawk
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Trap
herO vs SHIN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
3 days
Bonyth vs Ret
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S3
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W3
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 1
Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.