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On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels.
No I'm afraid I can't, Soo doesn't do flashy, he does winning. His style it pretty much the epitome of solid, unspectacular yet highly effective.
I'm not saying you should be hyped, I'm not hyped at all, I've barely watched anything of the GSL this season because I've simply not cared. I'm saying Soo is way better than he's given credit for, better than other more popular zergs like Life, Curious, JD etc.
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So the finals are going to be representative of the season as a whole, huh.
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On March 30 2014 22:23 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels. No I'm afraid I can't, Soo doesn't do flashy, he does winning. His style it pretty much the epitome of solid, unspectacular yet highly effective. I'm not saying you should be hyped, I'm not hyped at all, I've barely watched anything of the GSL this season because I've simply not cared. I'm saying Soo is way better than he's given credit for, better than other more popular zergs like Life, Curious, JD etc.
Yet we dont see him in proleague, there has to be a reason for this aswell i would think...
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On March 30 2014 23:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 22:23 Squat wrote:On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels. No I'm afraid I can't, Soo doesn't do flashy, he does winning. His style it pretty much the epitome of solid, unspectacular yet highly effective. I'm not saying you should be hyped, I'm not hyped at all, I've barely watched anything of the GSL this season because I've simply not cared. I'm saying Soo is way better than he's given credit for, better than other more popular zergs like Life, Curious, JD etc. Yet we dont see him in proleague, there has to be a reason for this aswell i would think...
Well there is obviously some reason. I just don't think it's a lack of ability. Perhaps they just haven't had to field him much, maybe he's being saved as a snipe, I dunno Kev.
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On March 30 2014 21:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 19:24 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 18:51 McRatyn wrote:On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels. Don't know about you but pure results hype me alomost as, if not the same, as "cool" play. And when you say that he wins with "mediocore" games, how does that make his opponents look like? Well, considering the fact that the game is artificially balanced (as opposed to most physical sports), the possibility that it isn't balanced always exists and always will exist. That leaves the burden of proof of skill either on the players (to demonstrate) or the casters (to explain). soO's gotten to two finals, yeah that's kind of impressive, but then again Inca got to the finals. Are you gonna tell me Inca's skill rivals the skill of other GSL finalists? No, luck, balance, meta, and whatever else were on his side. I personally haven't seen omgwtf-level play out of soO and Artosis wasn't able to work his magic to explain what makes soO so good last season, so, I dunno what to tell you. For me it takes Soulkey levels of consistency to like a player who doesn't always look spectacular while winning. If you want to watch funky builds, go watch RuFF on twitch.tv and you'll see 1 base ghost builds, 2 base mech vs protoss, 4 port banshee, proxy mine drops etc. He's done very well for himself, but fact of the matter is he's a rank 30 gm on NA and probably wouldn't make gm on Korea. This game isn't about being flashy. It's about WINNING. You say he doesn't appear to be playing at a world class level. That's quite the assertion to make. Who are you? A gm player, talent scout, coach? Your opinion is controversial, but also likely worthless. He beat world class players to make it to where he is. Inca made it to the finals when the game was still young and not figured out. The meta game has evolved since then. The strategies are for the most part figured out. Soo is on one of the strongest teams in the world, competing in the hardest leagues in the world, playing the best players in the world etc. It's not even comparable the level of skill.
Hey don't insult inca, he was the pioneer of mind gaming 1 base dark Templar rushes vs all races.
And by mind gaming I mean doing them close to 100% of the time.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
SKT T1 Zerg......... ahaha xD
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Zest, the super rising star of KT, eclipsing even flash
soO, the two time consectutive finalist, seemingly soulkeys apprentice
no matter who wins it will be epic! :D
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zest for royal road
soo for dong line
i believe!!
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I love how people are discussing Soo's skill rather than the actual finals themselves. He made it to the finals back to back, he is very good at this game, deal with it.
Sucks that there is no venue though.
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On March 31 2014 03:48 Lorch wrote:
I love how people are discussing Soo's skill rather than the actual finals themselves. He made it to the finals back to back, he is very good at this game, deal with it.
Sucks that there is no venue though.
The actual finals aren't interesting, everybody knows that KT > SKT
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On March 30 2014 21:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 19:24 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 18:51 McRatyn wrote:On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels. Don't know about you but pure results hype me alomost as, if not the same, as "cool" play. And when you say that he wins with "mediocore" games, how does that make his opponents look like? Well, considering the fact that the game is artificially balanced (as opposed to most physical sports), the possibility that it isn't balanced always exists and always will exist. That leaves the burden of proof of skill either on the players (to demonstrate) or the casters (to explain). soO's gotten to two finals, yeah that's kind of impressive, but then again Inca got to the finals. Are you gonna tell me Inca's skill rivals the skill of other GSL finalists? No, luck, balance, meta, and whatever else were on his side. I personally haven't seen omgwtf-level play out of soO and Artosis wasn't able to work his magic to explain what makes soO so good last season, so, I dunno what to tell you. For me it takes Soulkey levels of consistency to like a player who doesn't always look spectacular while winning. If you want to watch funky builds, go watch RuFF on twitch.tv and you'll see 1 base ghost builds, 2 base mech vs protoss, 4 port banshee, proxy mine drops etc. He's done very well for himself, but fact of the matter is he's a rank 30 gm on NA and probably wouldn't make gm on Korea. This game isn't about being flashy. It's about WINNING.
Which makes it even more impressive when players manage to win utilizing a signature style that others aren't able to pull off, ie. Life's lings, Kangho's Queens, Soulkey's aggressive Swarm Host, Scarlett's creep, Jaedong's Mutas, hyvaa's sOs-like insanity, DRG's eternal Lair tech and Roro's eternal turtle-mode in metas that don't favor them. Although I might hate Roro anyway just because.
You say he doesn't appear to be playing at a world class level. That's quite the assertion to make. Who are you? A gm player, talent scout, coach? Your opinion is controversial, but also likely worthless. He beat world class players to make it to where he is.
I didn't say soO's not a good player, I said he doesn't appear to be playing at a world class level. Obviously he is a good player. He might even be world class (though I seriously doubt it). But because he doesn't do anything flashy (like use micro-intensive units in a way that makes our heads spin, which is kind of a pre-req for world-class skill in my book), and because apparently the English commentators are fundamentally incapable of pointing out all of the right unflashy moves that he makes often enough to get to Code S finals twice, I won't have any way to know until he proves it with Soulkey-esque consistency.
The only way this is controversial is if you go into the game assuming both that it's perfectly balanced, and perfectly rewarding of skill, at all times. Both of those seem like faulty assumptions to me. There's a reason we have patches, and some units/strats inherently take more mechanical skill to pull off than their counter-strats, or vice versa. Or if you think that making it to two GSL finals during the same meta is hard proof of "world class skill" in and of itself. But unless your world class is big enough to include like 50 players (in which case that's not world class, that's just Koreans), I disagree.
Inca made it to the finals when the game was still young and not figured out. The meta game has evolved since then. The strategies are for the most part figured out. Soo is on one of the strongest teams in the world, competing in the hardest leagues in the world, playing the best players in the world etc. It's not even comparable the level of skill.
Every single thing you said about soO was true of Roro when he won his GSL at the end of WOL. Good team (less good than soO's), hardest league, playing best players (harder vs. lineup than soO's). And WOL was a lot more figured out then than HOTS is now. So I guess it's just an inarguable fact that Roro had world class skill and deserved to win a GSL...?
edit: let's bring some RL sports into this. If you followed Sochi Olympics hockey, you'd know that there was a lot of controversy around the way the subpar teams were playing. They played very defensive, boring hockey, because they knew they could never win a straight up game. Sound familiar? (In SC it's usually the opposite, inferior players play very aggressive games; but the idea is the same) These teams' hope was keeping the score 0-0 until the shootout, and in a shootout anything is possible. Viewers hated it and talked about changes the rules of the game to disencourage this style of play. Seriously. Changing the rules of hockey. They wanted to see manly macro hockey games where the inferior team lost in a way that demonstrated their inferiority.
And the inferior teams did lose. But if they had won, nobody would have said they were good teams. Winning is a lot, but it isn't everything.
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soO is a top zerg, there's no doubt about it.
But other than him taking down list of great players, there is nothing much else to say about him.
Maybe we are all just waiting for that one epic game where his skill really shines among the others
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God I want Zest to win SO bad, first time I've wanted a Protoss to win this badly for a while :D
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On March 30 2014 19:24 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 18:51 McRatyn wrote:On March 30 2014 18:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 30 2014 06:01 Squat wrote:
Soo is one of the best 3-4 zergs in the world. He has better gamesense than Soulkey and almost as good understanding of zerg as Roro, along with top notch mechanics and a varied arsenal of different builds and styles. He is criminally underrated and would probably beat your favorite player black and blue while you are busy exclaiming "who the fuck is this guy!?" with a mixture of astonishment and despair.
Soo is legitimately one of the best players in Korea, haters can step on a lego. Can you point me to a series where he demonstrates some very serious, very obvious skill? All of his GSL games (this season and last) have looked pretty mediocre to me. Yeah, he wins, but he doesn't do it by doing anything extraordinary. Like even vs. Life which was obviously an entertaining series, Life was always the one with the cooler moves (Nydus, proxy Spine) whereas soO just... plays... well. And not so well that it looks world-class. Just... well. I'm more hyped about this season than last, but nowhere close to Inno vs. Soulkey levels. Don't know about you but pure results hype me alomost as, if not the same, as "cool" play. And when you say that he wins with "mediocore" games, how does that make his opponents look like? Well, considering the fact that the game is artificially balanced (as opposed to most physical sports), the possibility that it isn't balanced always exists and always will exist. That leaves the burden of proof of skill either on the players (to demonstrate) or the casters (to explain). soO's gotten to two finals, yeah that's kind of impressive, but then again Inca got to the finals. Are you gonna tell me Inca's skill rivals the skill of other GSL finalists? No, luck, balance, meta, and whatever else were on his side. I personally haven't seen omgwtf-level play out of soO and Artosis wasn't able to work his magic to explain what makes soO so good last season, so, I dunno what to tell you. For me it takes Soulkey levels of consistency to like a player who doesn't always look spectacular while winning.
If you'd ask me in 2012, I'd have put Inca against Rainbow, TSL_Rain, Top, Losira, (way past his prime) July any day... Those were his contemporaries as GSL runner-ups and like it or not Inca was as good as them.
It's always taken a bit of luck to get into the finals, that's how tournaments go. I don't thinks soO making the finals back-to-back is exactly lucky though.
Anyways, I know what you mean about players who don't have the 'wow' factor but are consistent. I used to hate on Symbol and thought he was overrated because I thought he was pretty one-dimensional who got away with some terrible cheeses (like buliding a Nydus worm in vision of Innovation's buildings). But he was pretty consistent as SC2 players go, so eventually I had to accept that he was pretty decent. I think the real test for what makes a consistent player is simply - how do they do when they play against 'worse' players. Do they look struggle? Or do they just take care of business.
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for those saying soo is a so-so player...
why not participate in kr gsl and lets see how you place yourself there...
you probably won't even get on code a...
but still, an skt zerg will always be an skt zerg~ haha! ^_^
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On April 01 2014 07:39 riyanme wrote:
for those saying soo is a so-so player...
why not participate in kr gsl and lets see how you place yourself there...
you probably won't even get on code a...
but still, an skt zerg will always be an skt zerg~ haha! ^_^
When will people stop making that argument? 
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On April 01 2014 07:39 riyanme wrote:
for those saying soo is a so-so player...
why not participate in kr gsl and lets see how you place yourself there...
you probably won't even get on code a...
but still, an skt zerg will always be an skt zerg~ haha! ^_^
Remember that when you watch a bad movie next time
Become a movie director yourself or don't complain the movie sucked
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On April 01 2014 07:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2014 07:39 riyanme wrote:
for those saying soo is a so-so player...
why not participate in kr gsl and lets see how you place yourself there...
you probably won't even get on code a...
but still, an skt zerg will always be an skt zerg~ haha! ^_^ When will people stop making that argument?
anyway, im SOO ZEST up for the finals....
i really want zest to win...
why the heck is the venue on the studio??!
a looming 'cataclysm' in gsl... tsk tsk...
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On March 29 2014 14:31 mrRoflpwn wrote:
Oh I miss the days where they were able to afford Kpop girl groups =(
I miss those days too T_T
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EPT
