College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
NBA is biased, they didn't fine the Heat anything when the Heat sat their players just a few games later. I remember that fine, and it goes along with what I'm saying. NBA should have no right to decide how the teams strategize unless it breaks contract. Spurs didn't break any rules, but NBA made up bullshit to fine them and then was hypocritical at least one time in the same season. Since then, the Spurs will play their players for 1 or 2 minutes and then sit them the rest of the game just to avoid the NBA's bullshit. The result is the same though. It's saying that CJ players HAVE to play GSL.
You need to know what it's like to compete in a professional setting, or at least sympathize for it. It might sound stupid, but a mind set on improvement and a mind set on winning are two different minds. It's not just missing a day of practice, it's missing a lot more than that.
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
I feel like I should clear up some misconceptions about this situation. KeSPA had no part in CJ Entus not sending players to the Code A qualifiers. This was a decision made by the CJ organization and its players. Why would KeSPA not allow only 1 team from competing in Code A yet allow all the other teams to compete? We respect the CJ organization's decision to focus on Proleague and hope that this gamble pays off.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately. That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.
Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are. If you're player sympathetic, you would be rooting for them to join a team that will write a contract that let's then do whatever they want and will pay for whatever they want.
This is a business, and people are trying to do the best they can. Although any business would care about employee benefits, company benefits come first. In this case, CJ is saying that Code A is not a priority. Even if their player has a breakout run in Code A, it will negatively affect PL practice for the team. They want to be team oriented, and I'm thinking it's in their contract to follow what Coach Park says.
If all of their players were as good as herO, he would probably let them all play Code A, but since they aren't, they need to focus on getting better and helping out in the team house.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately. That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.
Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are.
Nah, my paragraphs aren't in conflict because I didn't assume they would lose. The one day of loss practice is true. If they keep winning in gsl, then they would just practice both like hero, unless you think hero should drop out of gsl so he only has to practice for proleague? Cause if you want to count gsl practice time as not counting as practice, then you would have to do so for hero too. That's why I don't count any players who would have made gsl as losing practice time.
Also, you are team sympathetic because that's not how things work or how things are. It's how they are for CJ only as every other team let their players attend the qualifiers. That's what this whole debate is about - Coach Park's decision to prevent his players from playing in the qualifiers. I think his decision was wrong because that's not how things work or how things are for every other team. You seem to disagree and side with park, which is fine, but don't try to pass off his decision as normal as his decision was abnormal compared to every other team.
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take
EPT
