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Active: 692 users

Code A qualifers: Flash, INnoVation, and others advance, C…

Forum Index > SC2 General
162 CommentsPost a Reply
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TL.net ESPORTS
Profile Joined July 2011
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 12:48:44
March 26 2014 11:23 GMT
#1
[image loading]
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_2/Qualifier

Advanced from morning qualifier
[image loading]Group 1: (Z)hitmaN, (Z)Impact
[image loading]Group 2: (P)Stork, (P)TAiLS
[image loading]Group 3: (T)Cure, (T)Journey
[image loading]Group 4: (P)eMotion, (P)Seed
[image loading]Group 5: (P)Billowy, (Z)hyvaa
[image loading]Group 6: (Z)Shine (Samsung), (T)FanTaSy
Advanced from afternoon qualifier
[image loading]Group 1: (Z)Rogue, (P)Super
[image loading]Group 2: (P)Choya, (Z)Action
[image loading]Group 3: (Z)Armani, (T)Flash
[image loading]Group 4: (Z)ByuL, (T)INnoVation
[image loading]Group 5: (P)Tassadar, (Z)RagnaroK
[image loading]Group 6: (T)TY, (T)Reality



Notable Eliminated Players
[image loading]+ Show Spoiler [Click to Show] +

MORNING SESSION
(T)Legend, (T)eins, (T)UngNim, (Z)Lucky, (Z)Sleep, (P)Creator, (T)Monster, (T)Guilty, (Z)Sniper, (P)Swagger, (Z)Shine (MVP), (Z)KassiA, (T)Hack, (T)MarineKing, (T)Miso

AFTERNOON SESSION
(Z)BBoongBBoong, (P)Splendid, (Z)DeParture, (T)Center, (P)Remember, (P)State, (Z)TerrOr, (P)SKS, (T)TurN, (T)KeeN, (T)Dream, (P)Terminator, (T)Noblesse, (T)BrAvO, (Z)KangHo, (T)Sorry, (Z)Sacsri


The second GSL qualifier of the year saw 24 players gaina entry into the upcoming Code A tournament.

Recently successful players like (T)Flash, (T)INnoVation, (T)TY, and (Z)Rogue were finally able to shed ther Code B status, earning a shot at advancing to Code S.

Some fan favorites like (P)Stork and (T)FanTaSy were also able break through the qualifiers, but others like (T)MarineKing and (P)State were left to await the third and final qualifier of the year.

Notably absent was the entire CJ Entus squad. Players like EffOrt, Gumiho, Bunny, Skyhigh, Trust, and others were eligible to participate, but they all missed out on the qualifier. According to Korean website Daily Esports, CJ Entus stated that "As a result of an agreement between the front office and CJ players to continue the team's momentum after placing second in Proleague's Round 2, the players will temporarily halt their participation in qualifiers."

The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.

A few players made unexpected returns. The previous inactive and rumored to be retired (Z)hyvaa fought his way through the qualifier, announcing his desire to sign with a team. Player-turned-coach-turned-player (P)Choya also qualified, even defeating former pupil Hurricane in the process. (Z)ByuL returned to Korea from WCS America, citing a desire to help his team in Proleague according to Daily Esports.
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TL+ Member
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
March 26 2014 11:26 GMT
#2
It's only R2 we know how things can change from round to round.
NovaMB
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany9534 Posts
March 26 2014 11:27 GMT
#3
MKP CJ Entus

But Bogus, TY, Rogue and Impact made it, which is nice.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 26 2014 11:29 GMT
#4
I still can't believe a retired hyvaa could knock out mkp lol
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
March 26 2014 11:30 GMT
#5
And no video coverage, which isn't nice
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
DARKING
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Mexico674 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 11:32:12
March 26 2014 11:30 GMT
#6
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
LiquipediaMexican Liquipedia staff and Terran player. I tweet things @DARKING665.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 26 2014 11:33 GMT
#7
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote:
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?

I wonder how much it will even pay off
Whisperkill
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada76 Posts
March 26 2014 11:33 GMT
#8
Wow, Flash and TY were kind of expected, but I'm thrilled Mafia Zerg managed to go through his group as well, KT hwaiting!
RIP 우정호, best broodwar player.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
March 26 2014 11:35 GMT
#9
did state try? I didn't find his name on the bracket although admittedly I didn't look terribly hard
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 26 2014 11:36 GMT
#10
Heh, look at the brackets, the terrans barely scraped by. Don't get your hopes up regarding the Code A performances of any of these guys.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Ketch
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands7285 Posts
March 26 2014 11:37 GMT
#11
what the hell CJ?
DARKING
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Mexico674 Posts
March 26 2014 11:37 GMT
#12
On March 26 2014 20:35 chipmonklord17 wrote:
did state try? I didn't find his name on the bracket although admittedly I didn't look terribly hard

He did. He lost to Tassadar in the 2nd round of the qualifier.
LiquipediaMexican Liquipedia staff and Terran player. I tweet things @DARKING665.
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
March 26 2014 11:40 GMT
#13
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote:
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?


Proleague always came first in bw, too.
I'm not aware of any instance of a team not letting their players participate in an individual tournament's qualifiers. However, it was a common occurance that players can only practice for starleagues during their spare time (outside of their 8h/day team practice). This applied not only to qualifiers but also to the latter rounds of individual leagues.
Darrkhan
Profile Joined February 2012
Finland1236 Posts
March 26 2014 11:40 GMT
#14
hyvaa!!!!!!....MKP

Tassadar also made it? Cool! Haven't seen him for a very long time.
I hope Flash, TY and Fantasy will do well next season
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33360 Posts
March 26 2014 11:40 GMT
#15
What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
March 26 2014 11:40 GMT
#16
According to Korean website Daily Esports, CJ Entus stated that "As a result of an agreement between the front office and CJ players to continue the team's momentum after placing second in Proleague's Round 2, the players will temporarily halt their participation in qualifiers."

This makes no sense...
NicksonReyes
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Philippines4431 Posts
March 26 2014 11:42 GMT
#17
KT! Don't miss out on signing hyvaa again!
"Start yo" -FlaSh
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 26 2014 11:44 GMT
#18
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote:
What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.

It's even more ridiculous in that it costs a team almost nothing to ferry there players to the studio or w/e to attend qualifiers, and if they get in, they still don't have to dedicate time to figuring out strategies and the like for each series. Oh well
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
March 26 2014 11:44 GMT
#19
On March 26 2014 20:33 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote:
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?

I wonder how much it will even pay off

Hopefully enough to secure a playoffs spot
AdministratorBreak the chains
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
March 26 2014 11:46 GMT
#20
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote:
What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.


But they still are required to spent their time helping out the main players instead of improving their own play or focusing on GSL I guess.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Undead1993
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany17651 Posts
March 26 2014 11:47 GMT
#21
hm i think that's a really bad decision by the cj entus team. if players build up momentum in individual tournaments they sure will be able to carry your team and you can only profit from it.
very happy hyvaa made it and kind of funny to see choya making it :D
SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33360 Posts
March 26 2014 11:47 GMT
#22
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote:
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?


something similar, added some context to the OP
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
March 26 2014 11:50 GMT
#23
On March 26 2014 20:44 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 20:33 bo1b wrote:
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote:
I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?

I wonder how much it will even pay off

Hopefully enough to secure a playoffs spot

Maybe you are behind all of this, it all makes sense now ...^^
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
machokj
Profile Joined March 2010
Bulgaria74 Posts
March 26 2014 11:51 GMT
#24
When does Code A start ? 9th April ?
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51440 Posts
March 26 2014 11:52 GMT
#25
oh dear, that's disastrous for the cj players, not being able to play in the qualifiers for the only major individual league in korea.
Commentator
Zerg.Zilla
Profile Joined February 2012
Hungary5029 Posts
March 26 2014 11:54 GMT
#26
Wuhu yeah bitch!hitmaN,Action,Flash,TY :D and Zest to the GSL finals...today was a good day!
(•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) ~Keep calm and inject Larva~
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 26 2014 11:59 GMT
#27
down with coach park!
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
p14c
Profile Joined May 2010
Vatican City State431 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 12:02:18
March 26 2014 12:00 GMT
#28
Terrans are still struggling. They barely can beat code B Zergs and Protosses and many of them advanced as a result of a TvT match..The chance of any of them to win a GSL in the foreseeable future is very low.
Game Over, Man! Game Over!
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3748 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 12:03:05
March 26 2014 12:02 GMT
#29
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote:
What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.

Maybe they are expected to be good punching bags for the A-team rather than play for their own good? It actually makes more sense in this case as being punching bags brings something good to the team while for team's top lineup such qualifiers are decent practice - punching bags doesn't need it.
jakethesnake
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada4948 Posts
March 26 2014 12:02 GMT
#30
Wow - rough for the CJ players. I really hope this doesn't create a frustrated team environment which would only hurt their performance!
Community Newsjjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji nshoseo.jpg
shid0x
Profile Joined July 2012
Korea (South)5014 Posts
March 26 2014 12:04 GMT
#31
Meh pretty dissapointing results.

Interesting results from (Z)Armani(BurninG),(P)eMotion,(T)Journey,Fox,(T)TurN.

feeling sorry for (T)Guilty,(T)KeeN & (T)Dream
RIP MKP
Rustug
Profile Joined October 2010
1488 Posts
March 26 2014 12:14 GMT
#32
It's CJ's gamble to take. ProLeague or Nothing, best of luck to them.
Curious that we spend more time congratulating people who have succeeded than encouraging people who have not. 파이팅! ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ"
massivez
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium653 Posts
March 26 2014 12:17 GMT
#33
Mmm, isn't their some Kespa individual league coming up also?
KatatoniK
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United Kingdom978 Posts
March 26 2014 12:19 GMT
#34
Impact made it through! Glad to see him finally break through into Code A. No Ryung in the qualifiers, is he going back to America?

Not sure I fully agree with CJ's decision, if they win R2 of PL though then maybe it'll be worth it. Sad to see State not make it again but one day he will, I know it.
Flying on the Jin Air hype plane. Lets go Maru, Rogue, sOs and the handsome CJ herO
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 12:27:45
March 26 2014 12:24 GMT
#35
Shit, MarineKing :'(
At least Flash, TY, Fantasy and Innovation are getting in, finally.

Edit: Wait so essentially, MarineKing got 2 Byes and lost to a total Terran no-namer? Tough shit :'(
Glorfindel!
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1815 Posts
March 26 2014 12:29 GMT
#36
Biggest upset clearly was Terror not making it :/
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/598681/1/Glorfindel/ladder/161337#current-rank
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
March 26 2014 12:31 GMT
#37
CJ's policy doesn't make sense. Even if you want to focus on proleague, you can still go to the qualifiers and play normally without preparation. I'm sure that a few hours less of training time won't kill.
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
March 26 2014 12:33 GMT
#38
ChoyWOAH! :o
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
mongmong
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)1389 Posts
March 26 2014 12:46 GMT
#39
Lol Cj! following the footsteps of T1 back in the broodwar days, good luck. Last time T1 tried that shit, things didn't work out so well did it?
어헣 ↗ 어헣 ↗
Ctesias
Profile Joined December 2012
4595 Posts
March 26 2014 12:57 GMT
#40
Very glad that all my favorite Terrans advanced!

On the other hand, I feel bad for the Proleague benchwarmers from CJ. Has got to be terrible not being fielded there, and still not being allowed to play in the individual league...
Flash | Mvp
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1969 Posts
March 26 2014 13:07 GMT
#41
Stupid move by CJ...
Total Annihilation Zero
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
March 26 2014 13:10 GMT
#42
I think CJ made a good decision. Even if they only sent people to the qualifiers who aren't going to be played in PL, if a bunch of their squad lost or something, it could change the environment of the team house. After a bad round 1, I think this was a good choice.

And seriously KT better sign Hyvva!
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
March 26 2014 13:14 GMT
#43
On March 26 2014 22:10 Vasoline73 wrote:
I think CJ made a good decision. Even if they only sent people to the qualifiers who aren't going to be played in PL, if a bunch of their squad lost or something, it could change the environment of the team house. After a bad round 1, I think this was a good choice.

And seriously KT better sign Hyvva!

I hope they somehow sign Life before friday so we have another KT > SKT
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
xuanzue
Profile Joined October 2010
Colombia1747 Posts
March 26 2014 13:25 GMT
#44
Cj still can play in wcs am/eu
Dominions 4: "Thrones of Ascension".
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
March 26 2014 13:25 GMT
#45
Byun
"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
shid0x
Profile Joined July 2012
Korea (South)5014 Posts
March 26 2014 13:33 GMT
#46
On March 26 2014 22:25 Skynx wrote:
Byun


he didn't even try.
RIP MKP
Trustworthy-Tony
Profile Joined March 2014
Tanzania187 Posts
March 26 2014 13:35 GMT
#47
What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~
p14c
Profile Joined May 2010
Vatican City State431 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 13:39:00
March 26 2014 13:38 GMT
#48
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:
What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~

Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.
Game Over, Man! Game Over!
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
March 26 2014 13:40 GMT
#49
On March 26 2014 21:31 Pangpootata wrote:
CJ's policy doesn't make sense. Even if you want to focus on proleague, you can still go to the qualifiers and play normally without preparation. I'm sure that a few hours less of training time won't kill.

But if you qualify you then have to practice for your individual matches. If you don't intend to practice for them, there is no point in trying to qualify.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 26 2014 13:45 GMT
#50
Damn it, Sniper out already.
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
March 26 2014 13:48 GMT
#51
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
Jampackedeon
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2053 Posts
March 26 2014 13:56 GMT
#52
Surprised, in a good way, that Flash made it through again! Glad to see he is still persevering!
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
March 26 2014 14:05 GMT
#53
On March 26 2014 22:56 Jampackedeon wrote:
Surprised, in a good way, that Flash made it through again! Glad to see he is still persevering!

I don't see how it's very surprising. He's still one of the best Terrans in Korea, having to requalify for an individual league doesn't change that.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
March 26 2014 14:17 GMT
#54
Winnovation!
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Ammanas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Slovakia2166 Posts
March 26 2014 14:26 GMT
#55
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote:
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?

They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...

On March 26 2014 22:38 p14c wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:
What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~

Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.

And what did you expect? There is just more players of those races - there was no one in those brackets who really deserved to advance instead of the people who advanced...
JangBi forever <3 || Classic! herO! Rain! Zest! | Rogue! Hydra! Solar! | Fantasy! Cure! Reality! Sorry! Journey!
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
March 26 2014 14:27 GMT
#56
I think that Monster link is wrong, the link is leading to some Terran player from France.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Swiv
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany3674 Posts
March 26 2014 14:31 GMT
#57
Hell yeah heeva is back. I am very excited! Hope he finds a good Team. Prime MVP Or a foreign maybe?
[_] Terran [_] Zerg [_] Protoss [X] Random ------- Fantasy - hyvaa - sOs
RHoudini
Profile Joined October 2009
Belgium3627 Posts
March 26 2014 14:33 GMT
#58
So many great players advance.
Special mention for hyvaa and Choya!
Lee Jae Dong fighting!
mongmong
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)1389 Posts
March 26 2014 14:35 GMT
#59
On March 26 2014 23:26 Ammanas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote:
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?

They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...

Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 22:38 p14c wrote:
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:
What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~

Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.

And what did you expect? There is just more players of those races - there was no one in those brackets who really deserved to advance instead of the people who advanced...



Since when Proleague has been THE premier tournament in all of Sc2? wasn't the case in bw, still isn't in sc2.
어헣 ↗ 어헣 ↗
illidanx
Profile Joined November 2011
United States973 Posts
March 26 2014 14:36 GMT
#60
Good decision by CJ.
Die-hard KeSPA fan
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 14:41:04
March 26 2014 14:37 GMT
#61
B teamers were told to contribute more to the team instead of reaching for stardom, and their weaker A team players who have been losing all of their matches while being carried by herO and Bbyong were told that they need to focus on getting better and contributing to the team instead of reaching for stardom.

When they deserve it, they can compete in individual leagues again.
Their decision makes perfect sense to me....
People criticize about CJ throwing out exposure, but what good is exposure when CJ was last place in round 1 of PL and if all of their players failed to qualify. There is such a thing as bad exposure too, especially for Coach Park right now. Lots of pressure on him to finally make a successful PL team again.

Although the Code A qualifiers are a lot more boring now than before, I'm glad that all of the people who qualified, qualified.
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
Yorkie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States12612 Posts
March 26 2014 14:38 GMT
#62
God damnit Kangho nooooooooooooooooo (((((((((((((((
Hwang Kang Hooooooooooo. Follow mah boy Shellshock @Shellshock1122
TheInsane
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada15 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 14:44:49
March 26 2014 14:43 GMT
#63
I wanted Legend to make it.

Then he could play and observe the GSL!
That would have been epic.
The meaning of life is to question one's own existance.
DinosaurJones
Profile Joined February 2012
United States1000 Posts
March 26 2014 14:43 GMT
#64
I don't see Ryung's name at all. Did he not try to qualify??
d00p
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
711 Posts
March 26 2014 15:02 GMT
#65
hyvaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jakethesnake
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada4948 Posts
March 26 2014 15:02 GMT
#66
Seed qualified for Code A/Challenger for the 5th time since he won his GSL. Hopefully this doesn't end up with his 5th first-round knock out (he has been knocked out in the first round in three consecutive seasons now).

He clearly has a lot of determination to keep qualifying, but must be extremely frustrated with his studio performance since mid-2012
Community Newsjjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji nshoseo.jpg
AWalker9
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United Kingdom7229 Posts
March 26 2014 15:10 GMT
#67
On March 26 2014 23:43 DinosaurJones wrote:
I don't see Ryung's name at all. Did he not try to qualify??


soOjwa has returned to smite all that stand in his way
NxSs
Profile Joined April 2013
Belgium39 Posts
March 26 2014 15:15 GMT
#68
Creator!
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
March 26 2014 15:32 GMT
#69
Poor CJ guys, for sure they want to play in the individual leagues. This is just coach Park being a jerk.
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
March 26 2014 15:33 GMT
#70
On March 27 2014 00:10 AWalker9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 23:43 DinosaurJones wrote:
I don't see Ryung's name at all. Did he not try to qualify??

https://twitter.com/axiomesports/status/448644366240722944
https://twitter.com/axiomesports/status/448819913713385472

After 1 season in Korea, Ryung runs back to NA?
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18397 Posts
March 26 2014 15:37 GMT
#71
Did I see correctly? Flash only advanced through the loser's bracket? o.O
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
March 26 2014 15:44 GMT
#72
At least now we know why did Prime play Choya almost whole R2 in SPL.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
bduddy
Profile Joined May 2012
United States1326 Posts
March 26 2014 15:47 GMT
#73
On March 26 2014 23:43 TheInsane wrote:
I wanted Legend to make it.

Then he could play and observe the GSL!
That would have been epic.
He doesn't observe anymore... he's also terrible
>Liquid'Nazgul: Of course you are completely right
AWalker9
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United Kingdom7229 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 15:53:56
March 26 2014 15:49 GMT
#74
On March 27 2014 00:37 sharkie wrote:
Did I see correctly? Flash only advanced through the loser's bracket? o.O


Yeah he got beat by Armani who I think is Solar's brother
soOjwa has returned to smite all that stand in his way
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
March 26 2014 15:53 GMT
#75
I don't understand Cj's decision. That's a really bad move.
Yay for TY, Cure, Fantasy and Stork, a bit sad for how poor Prime did in this qualifier, I would have wished them that they could catch a break for once.
Get off my lawn, young punks
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 15:57:37
March 26 2014 15:56 GMT
#76
On March 27 2014 00:53 ACrow wrote:
I don't understand Cj's decision. That's a really bad move.
Yay for TY, Cure, Fantasy and Stork, a bit sad for how poor Prime did in this qualifier, I would have wished them that they could catch a break for once.


If CJ wins R2 Playoffs and then make playoffs in R3, i don't think someone will blame Coach Park for this decision.
And seeing a lot of Proleague performers out in qualifiers, i don't think that anyone besides Gumi/Bunny probs could make Code B.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
DinosaurJones
Profile Joined February 2012
United States1000 Posts
March 26 2014 15:57 GMT
#77
So Axiom back to NA then...
yido
Profile Joined March 2014
United States350 Posts
March 26 2014 16:03 GMT
#78
I really hope Flash shows great games.
I have been waiting and waiting, only to watch Jaedong get better and better while Flash seems to be stuck.
I'm hoping more mech = more Flash, but I won't be holding my breath.

I doubt MKP will be back in Code S this year.
gl hf
AWalker9
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United Kingdom7229 Posts
March 26 2014 16:03 GMT
#79
On March 27 2014 00:57 DinosaurJones wrote:
So Axiom back to NA then...


Well it's only Ryung who's going back, Alicia, CranK and Heart are already there and Impact is in Code A.
soOjwa has returned to smite all that stand in his way
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
March 26 2014 16:03 GMT
#80
On March 27 2014 00:32 sitromit wrote:
Poor CJ guys, for sure they want to play in the individual leagues. This is just coach Park being a jerk.

Yeah.....
[image loading]
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
March 26 2014 16:06 GMT
#81
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
March 26 2014 16:09 GMT
#82
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
March 26 2014 16:19 GMT
#83
Really hope coach park decision pays off.
It's quite a big sacrifice for all the cj players afterall
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 16:35:55
March 26 2014 16:22 GMT
#84
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Trustworthy-Tony
Profile Joined March 2014
Tanzania187 Posts
March 26 2014 16:31 GMT
#85
VODs or replays publically available anywhere?
Alryk
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2718 Posts
March 26 2014 16:36 GMT
#86
Choya :O :O

Seed
Team Liquid, IM, ViOlet!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
March 26 2014 16:43 GMT
#87
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.

IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA.

Do you even bother reading and getting informed before speaking. This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years. This has nothing to do with KESPA... AND don't speak for everyone. Just because you value GSL greater then proleague doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. I absolutely love Proleague. It is currently my favorite part of SC2 even if SKT is having some troubles.

I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right?

And finally, don't you start getting accusatory and attacking me. That's rude and unnecessary. These players are paid to be on a team. They signed contracts to have salaries. Any one of them could have chosen to leave the just like Jaedong did. Maybe these players are in agreement and really want to succeed as a team and hell, that sounds like a fine decision to me.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 26 2014 16:53 GMT
#88
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.

Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
Moderator
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:13:41
March 26 2014 16:56 GMT
#89
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
March 26 2014 16:58 GMT
#90
On March 27 2014 01:53 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.

Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?

If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:18:52
March 26 2014 17:15 GMT
#91
Flash and Innovation is lucky that this was double elimination. Armani is God. Flash needs to stop with his ruler shit and just practice. He just sucks ATM and needs to realise that being good in BW doesn't mean he will be good in SC2 and his 68-2 record in practice TvP means jack shit.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:17:59
March 26 2014 17:17 GMT
#92
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
March 26 2014 17:21 GMT
#93
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
malady
Profile Joined November 2010
United States600 Posts
March 26 2014 17:22 GMT
#94
I think CJ made a fine decision, its their team.

It will all be worth it once there holding that trophy.
dumchu
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:30:58
March 26 2014 17:23 GMT
#95
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place.

Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. Team choice is actually very limited for most players. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:25:22
March 26 2014 17:23 GMT
#96
On March 27 2014 01:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:53 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.

Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?

If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.


BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.

User was temp banned for this post.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 17:35:36
March 26 2014 17:29 GMT
#97
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.

Why are you whining about it and not players?
Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.

It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
March 26 2014 17:57 GMT
#98
On March 27 2014 02:23 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:58 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:53 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.

Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?

If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.


BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.

This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
March 26 2014 18:01 GMT
#99
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.

Why are you whining about it and not players?
Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.

It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


Yes, all the PL aces that qualified went to IEM. So yes, PL in no longer THE tournament, i am sorry if the Kespa fans have trouble dealing with this. It is pretty obvious that Korean tournaments aren't the sole focus of KR teams and players. Just accept it.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
March 26 2014 18:03 GMT
#100
On March 27 2014 02:57 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:23 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:58 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:53 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.

Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?

If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.


BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.

This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.


Then please take your Bisu crap back to BW forums. Thanks,
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 18:07:04
March 26 2014 18:05 GMT
#101
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
March 26 2014 18:12 GMT
#102
On March 27 2014 03:05 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.


i thought it applies with team/coach also. i remember reading something about a coach not wanting to let their international player go because of upcoming important game. perhaps they can only convince but not actually decide for them, but i remember coach putting his input on that regard.

if i recall, this isnt the first time team/coach prioritize pl over other events in sc2 and bw alike.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
March 26 2014 18:14 GMT
#103
On March 27 2014 03:05 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.


you get diplomatic injuries in soccer.
Zest fanboy.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 18:17:39
March 26 2014 18:15 GMT
#104
On March 27 2014 03:05 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.


It's not only in soccer.
For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury.
He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.

And players not only decide it in soccer, comment above is right. Sometimes coaches go against it, just because "no reason to play friendlies with your national team because you can get injury, blah-blah and we have Champions League playoffs in 2-3 weeks".
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 18:33:25
March 26 2014 18:26 GMT
#105
On March 27 2014 03:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 03:05 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:21 vthree wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts?
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.

Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.


Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,


sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D

I'm not gonna argue.

On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.


Huh not according to the op.

On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.


Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.

Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.


Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.



No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.

I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.


It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.


I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.


For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury.
He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.



Well that is a unique case since he was injured for most of the year, but I'll give you that example. However, I call foul on using any Islanders decision as an example of anything to prove a point! Visnovsky complied with the decision, but I'm actually curious what would have happened if he fought that decision. I actually can't think of another example of an NHL team preventing a player from playing in the olympics.

Olympic participation is written into the CBA for this very reason, so the NHL shuts down and players can particpate in them freely without missing team games. Henrik Sedin pulled himself out of the olympics due to injury because a classy organization like the canucks wasn't going to stop him from going if he wanted to.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
March 26 2014 18:59 GMT
#106
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
AdministratorBreak the chains
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 26 2014 19:05 GMT
#107
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote:
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.


I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
Moderator
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 19:10:35
March 26 2014 19:10 GMT
#108
If this goes down and I still don't see skyhigh in PL i will be a very sad me


E: STUCHIU PLZ
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
March 26 2014 19:13 GMT
#109
guess it's CJ's loss
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
March 26 2014 19:15 GMT
#110
Inno TY Fanta and Flash <3 now back to Code S with them all!
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 19:24:31
March 26 2014 19:24 GMT
#111
On March 27 2014 04:05 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote:
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.


I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!


As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
AdministratorBreak the chains
jakethesnake
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada4948 Posts
March 26 2014 19:27 GMT
#112
On March 27 2014 04:24 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 04:05 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote:
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.


I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!


As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.


It would be pretty unfair to send the players who aren't good enough to make PL appearances to the GSL qualifiers. You'd basically be rewarding them for not being as good, when the problem is the whole team isn't good enough at the moment. For the sake of team unity, I can believe that it has to be an all or nothing approach.
Community Newsjjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji || jjakji nshoseo.jpg
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1310 Posts
March 26 2014 19:27 GMT
#113
On March 27 2014 04:24 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 04:05 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote:
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.


I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!


As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.


That's almost certainly what it is. You know Coach Park is a stickler for routine, and you can't have a routine if various members are coming and going and practicing for individual leagues.

People can argue whether it's a good decision to make or not (and we'll find out) but that's CJ's call to make. They own the team, they can do whatever they want with it, they're paying the bills.
STX Fighting!
VManOfMana
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States764 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 19:42:11
March 26 2014 19:27 GMT
#114
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


Oh, please. "Iron fist of KeSPA?" You have no way to prove that KeSPA is behind CJ's decision, especially with all the other KeSPA teams participating in the qualifiers.

This is a CJ internal decision. It just shows that teams, even under KeSPA, can decide what they feel is better. Will it pay off? Who knows, but CJ can gamble if they want to, especially if Proleague takes precedence.

If you didn't realize, Korean corporate-sponsored teams still give big importance to Proleague, as it has been for years. This is the tournament where CJ Entus plays, not just some player sponsored by CJ. It's a critical difference between the Korean and foreign scene, and also what allowed the Korean scene to develop without needing Blizzard to throw money.
Woo Jung Ho, FIGHTING! | "With the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did." -Falling
illidanx
Profile Joined November 2011
United States973 Posts
March 26 2014 19:48 GMT
#115
It's not like many CJ players can get into code A anyway, let alone code S, so nothing is really lost. It's better to focus on the team league.

and it's NOT kespa decision.
Die-hard KeSPA fan
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
March 26 2014 19:57 GMT
#116
I couldn't disagree more.
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?

Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.


Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story).
In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition...
How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/salaries/
http://sportsgmtalk.wordpress.com/head-coach-and-manager-contracts/nba-head-coach-contracts-salaries/

Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.

Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to).
KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.

Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.

Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 20:04:15
March 26 2014 20:03 GMT
#117
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:
I couldn't disagree more.
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?

It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?

Show nested quote +
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.


Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/sport/rutgers-video-attack/index.html

You can even read about the coach's reflections on his behaviour and actions months after he got fired. It's a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/the-coach-who-exploded.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=Kazi Media Group&utm_medium=Kazi Media Group&_r=3&

I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story).
In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition...
How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/salaries/
http://sportsgmtalk.wordpress.com/head-coach-and-manager-contracts/nba-head-coach-contracts-salaries/

Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.

Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to).
KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.

Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.

Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.


you're doing one huge mistake. The US sport system is far from being universal. Teams have (almost) no way to prevent player to play for the national team in eurobasket/soccer/rugby/handball...
Zest fanboy.
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
March 26 2014 20:07 GMT
#118
interesting about the cj players not participating.
Moderatorlickypiddy
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 26 2014 20:10 GMT
#119
On March 27 2014 04:24 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 04:05 stuchiu wrote:
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote:
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.


I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!


As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.


I was being serious.

Moderator
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 21:10:11
March 26 2014 20:22 GMT
#120
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
hmsrenown
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1263 Posts
March 26 2014 20:45 GMT
#121
Choya? The dude is still around? Brilliant!
Ammanas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Slovakia2166 Posts
March 26 2014 20:53 GMT
#122
The difference is, everyone is taking teams as a gathering of individuals working towards the same goal, but more or less individually. Just how in all the western teams and even few Korean ones. Kespa teams are teams though. Those teams are ONLY there to participate in Proleague. The individual leagues are just a side thing that teams don't really care about.

Best comparison would imo be an international duty for football(/soccer) or hockey players. For Kespa teams, Proleague is the English Premier League. The individual league is the national team. It is very nice if your player does well, it raises his credit and then the credit of the team, but it is not his job. His job is to play in Premier League. That is why those teams exist. To play there, to win there and to represent their sponsors there.

And as far as national duty goes, there are billions of examples of coaches saying 'No!' to players wanting to represent their country during the season. Those examples are everywhere, in football and hockey (which are the only sports I watch). Just saying for my small country in last couple of months - Visnovsky not allowed to play in olympics by Islanders (yes, he eventually agreed with that, but only after it was clear to him that if he goes, he basically fucks up his team spot). Skrtel not allowed to play vs Poland (I think?) by Liverpool. Same for Holosko by Besiktas. In KHL (the Russian hockey league) they almost never let their players play the national team matches during the season (and I know, cause it's basically half of our national team). And that is just one small country - I believe you could find many more examples for other countries...
JangBi forever <3 || Classic! herO! Rain! Zest! | Rogue! Hydra! Solar! | Fantasy! Cure! Reality! Sorry! Journey!
Goibon
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand8185 Posts
March 26 2014 23:43 GMT
#123
I hope doing well in proleague pays really well.
Leenock =^_^= Ryung =^_^= Parting =^_^= herO =^_^= Guilty
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
March 26 2014 23:49 GMT
#124
This CJ business is really bizarre. Being forced to prioritise Proleague practice over individual league, ok, but not even allowed to try to qualify? Never seen that happen before.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-26 23:55:26
March 26 2014 23:54 GMT
#125
Really happy with most of the players that qualified, I wish MKP, Dream and Keen could have made it though...

Still, excited to see Flash, Innovation, TY and Seed get a second chance. Choya and Hyvaa advancing was certainly the biggest wtf moment of today.

The CJ thing kind of makes sense I guess, Korea, proleague etc.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
OdinnTV
Profile Joined January 2014
Canada14 Posts
March 27 2014 01:07 GMT
#126
Are there videos of this anywhere, or a replay pack?
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
March 27 2014 01:17 GMT
#127
On March 27 2014 10:07 OdinnTV wrote:
Are there videos of this anywhere, or a replay pack?

The event was not streamed however a few apm videos from Olivia(works for Axiom) will be going up if that's your thing
Moderatorlickypiddy
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
March 27 2014 02:44 GMT
#128
On March 26 2014 23:26 Ammanas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote:
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?

They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...


Case of BW-tinted glasses here I think. Simply put Proleague may have been all-important in BW but it lacks the significance of GSL as far as SC2 goes. It doesn't have the same history in the newer game and the consequently attached prestige that comes with that. That isn't to say its not an important tournament however.



Some additional thoughts to my earlier comments: Can't help but feel this will turn out to be a massive mistake. You have more chance of keeping in the bigger leagues once you're already in. Missing out on one of the opportunities to get in there, especially with so few GSLs per year now, is a pretty big deal.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
March 27 2014 02:58 GMT
#129
On March 27 2014 05:07 NovemberstOrm wrote:
interesting about the cj players not participating.


lol I love it when there's a heated discussion and NovstOrm comes out of nowhere with the most neutral response possible
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 27 2014 03:00 GMT
#130
On March 27 2014 11:58 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 05:07 NovemberstOrm wrote:
interesting about the cj players not participating.


lol I love it when there's a heated discussion and NovstOrm comes out of nowhere with the most neutral response possible


Day9 of Forum Posters.
Moderator
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
March 27 2014 03:03 GMT
#131
literally Red Tornado
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Yiome
Profile Joined February 2014
China1687 Posts
March 27 2014 04:04 GMT
#132
Yes, Reality advanced
put him with 3 zergs pls
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 27 2014 04:11 GMT
#133
On March 27 2014 12:03 lichter wrote:
literally Red Tornado

we smash bros now

literally maxim tomato
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
March 27 2014 05:37 GMT
#134
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.

I agree that KeSPA used to be able to screw people over like the NCAA does, and maybe still can do so, but they've given up most of their power as a governing player's association, and changed into a guidance and tournament/broadcasting organization. They pretty much just run ProLeague and help teams find sponsors now a days, whereas they used to be able to inflict all sorts of rules and regulations on anyone who touched their label.

As for CJ, they don't need their players to make a small sum of money playing in Code A if they actually won the qualifiers somehow. They'd rather those players keep to their regular practice routine and try to get to a Code S level before trying to compete.
Regardless of how harmless you say competing in the qualifiers could be, when you actually compete, your mindset changes. Your practice routines change, and your mentality changes. Motivation sways one way or another.
Right now, the practice partners need to be practice partners and not over extend their limits. Practice hard and help the team prepare for PL (even though they won't be playing, they still aid in the team's preparation), and get yourself to a level where you can prove yourself worthy of coming off the bench.

CJ sent herO to IEM and missed 2 PL matches, they could send their players to Code A, but it's not worth it to them as a whole. There are pluses and minuses to every decision, but regardless, this is a decision that CJ can and did make.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest. Don't blame KeSPA when CJ sits their players out of GSL so they can focus on improving rather than winning.
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
Mentor
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany219 Posts
March 27 2014 06:21 GMT
#135
Kt.(Z)Action to win next season's Code S.
Mafia Zerg is finally in the house! Slayin nerds left and right.
"Fame is like salty water, no last sip after the first, and before you drown you'll be dying of thirst." -Prezident-
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
March 27 2014 09:08 GMT
#136
Good people in there. Stork through again. Wahoo!
The heart's eternal vow
TW
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland255 Posts
March 27 2014 13:54 GMT
#137
Code A
19 P
9 T
20 Z

In qualifiers:
Inno lost to ByuL
Fantasy lost to Shine
Flash lost to Armani

What's gonna happen if they face Soulkey, Roro etc?

I wont be surprised if we start Code S with 3 Terran players after Code A. Ridiculous.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-27 14:18:29
March 27 2014 14:18 GMT
#138
On March 27 2014 22:54 TW wrote:
Code A
19 P
9 T
20 Z

In qualifiers:
Inno lost to ByuL
Fantasy lost to Shine
Flash lost to Armani

What's gonna happen if they face Soulkey, Roro etc?

I wont be surprised if we start Code S with 3 Terran players after Code A. Ridiculous.


At least noone will whine about it because TY is in Code A this time.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-27 14:21:10
March 27 2014 14:20 GMT
#139
On March 27 2014 11:44 -Celestial- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 23:26 Ammanas wrote:
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote:
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?

They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...


Case of BW-tinted glasses here I think. Simply put Proleague may have been all-important in BW but it lacks the significance of GSL as far as SC2 goes. It doesn't have the same history in the newer game and the consequently attached prestige that comes with that. That isn't to say its not an important tournament however.



Some additional thoughts to my earlier comments: Can't help but feel this will turn out to be a massive mistake. You have more chance of keeping in the bigger leagues once you're already in. Missing out on one of the opportunities to get in there, especially with so few GSLs per year now, is a pretty big deal.


The foreign fans care less about Proleague than in BW, but I'm unconvinced that the same is the case for Korean fans. According to many sources, the number of fans has increased by a lot since this season of Proleague began - coincidentally a season that's miles better than the last one. Did the game's popularity spike for no particular reason? Doubtful.
The players still focus a lot on Proleague because of the sponsor exposure there is to gain from it and because coaches and management make it clear (in many cases) that Proleague is number one. As I've said, I don't necessarily support this move, but Proleague is obviously important both to the players and the teams and it makes some kind of sense for them to focus on PL above all else.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
March 27 2014 17:07 GMT
#140
On March 27 2014 14:37 Shinta) wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.


Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.


Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/30/league-fines-spurs-250000-for-not-playing-stars-vs-miami/

League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami

Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:

“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-27 19:06:45
March 27 2014 19:04 GMT
#141
On March 28 2014 02:07 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 14:37 Shinta) wrote:
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.


Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.


Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/30/league-fines-spurs-250000-for-not-playing-stars-vs-miami/

Show nested quote +
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami

Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:

“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”

NBA is biased, they didn't fine the Heat anything when the Heat sat their players just a few games later. I remember that fine, and it goes along with what I'm saying. NBA should have no right to decide how the teams strategize unless it breaks contract. Spurs didn't break any rules, but NBA made up bullshit to fine them and then was hypocritical at least one time in the same season.
Since then, the Spurs will play their players for 1 or 2 minutes and then sit them the rest of the game just to avoid the NBA's bullshit. The result is the same though.
It's saying that CJ players HAVE to play GSL.

You need to know what it's like to compete in a professional setting, or at least sympathize for it. It might sound stupid, but a mind set on improvement and a mind set on winning are two different minds.
It's not just missing a day of practice, it's missing a lot more than that.

You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-27 19:48:11
March 27 2014 19:29 GMT
#142
On March 28 2014 04:04 Shinta) wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 02:07 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 14:37 Shinta) wrote:
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.


Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.


Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/30/league-fines-spurs-250000-for-not-playing-stars-vs-miami/

League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami

Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:

“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”


You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.


Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.

I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Chuddinater
Profile Joined July 2013
Korea (South)169 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-28 01:27:27
March 28 2014 01:26 GMT
#143
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote:
Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.

WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.


So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.

Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.


I feel like I should clear up some misconceptions about this situation. KeSPA had no part in CJ Entus not sending players to the Code A qualifiers. This was a decision made by the CJ organization and its players. Why would KeSPA not allow only 1 team from competing in Code A yet allow all the other teams to compete? We respect the CJ organization's decision to focus on Proleague and hope that this gamble pays off.
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
March 28 2014 03:29 GMT
#144
On March 27 2014 12:00 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2014 11:58 lichter wrote:
On March 27 2014 05:07 NovemberstOrm wrote:
interesting about the cj players not participating.


lol I love it when there's a heated discussion and NovstOrm comes out of nowhere with the most neutral response possible


Day9 of Forum Posters.

i miss fragile51
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
March 29 2014 06:28 GMT
#145
On March 28 2014 04:29 Canucklehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 04:04 Shinta) wrote:
On March 28 2014 02:07 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 14:37 Shinta) wrote:
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.


Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.


Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/30/league-fines-spurs-250000-for-not-playing-stars-vs-miami/

League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami

Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:

“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”


You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.


Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.

I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.

You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately.
That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.

Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are.
If you're player sympathetic, you would be rooting for them to join a team that will write a contract that let's then do whatever they want and will pay for whatever they want.

This is a business, and people are trying to do the best they can. Although any business would care about employee benefits, company benefits come first. In this case, CJ is saying that Code A is not a priority. Even if their player has a breakout run in Code A, it will negatively affect PL practice for the team. They want to be team oriented, and I'm thinking it's in their contract to follow what Coach Park says.

If all of their players were as good as herO, he would probably let them all play Code A, but since they aren't, they need to focus on getting better and helping out in the team house.
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
March 29 2014 07:19 GMT
#146
On March 29 2014 15:28 Shinta) wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2014 04:29 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 28 2014 04:04 Shinta) wrote:
On March 28 2014 02:07 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 14:37 Shinta) wrote:
On March 27 2014 05:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 04:57 Shinta) wrote:

College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.


Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.

Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.

I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.

I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.

I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.

Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.


Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.


Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/30/league-fines-spurs-250000-for-not-playing-stars-vs-miami/

League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami

Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:

“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”


You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.


Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.

I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.

You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately.
That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.

Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are.


Nah, my paragraphs aren't in conflict because I didn't assume they would lose. The one day of loss practice is true. If they keep winning in gsl, then they would just practice both like hero, unless you think hero should drop out of gsl so he only has to practice for proleague? Cause if you want to count gsl practice time as not counting as practice, then you would have to do so for hero too. That's why I don't count any players who would have made gsl as losing practice time.

Also, you are team sympathetic because that's not how things work or how things are. It's how they are for CJ only as every other team let their players attend the qualifiers. That's what this whole debate is about - Coach Park's decision to prevent his players from playing in the qualifiers. I think his decision was wrong because that's not how things work or how things are for every other team. You seem to disagree and side with park, which is fine, but don't try to pass off his decision as normal as his decision was abnormal compared to every other team.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
May 17 2014 12:20 GMT
#147
Ya about that
AdministratorBreak the chains
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
May 17 2014 12:27 GMT
#148
On May 17 2014 21:20 Zealously wrote:
Ya about that


word
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
May 17 2014 12:30 GMT
#149
On May 17 2014 21:20 Zealously wrote:
Ya about that

I hope you aren't serious
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
May 17 2014 12:36 GMT
#150
On May 17 2014 21:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2014 21:20 Zealously wrote:
Ya about that

I hope you aren't serious


You could say that CJ put in the effort and it paid off
AdministratorBreak the chains
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
May 17 2014 12:41 GMT
#151
Journey and Fantasy. The crazy build boys are back
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
May 17 2014 13:02 GMT
#152
On May 17 2014 21:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2014 21:20 Zealously wrote:
Ya about that

I hope you aren't serious


not like someone in code B just won the ace match.
Zest fanboy.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
May 17 2014 13:05 GMT
#153
So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
May 17 2014 13:25 GMT
#154
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?


such a bad strawman.
Zest fanboy.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
May 17 2014 13:52 GMT
#155
On May 17 2014 22:25 sAsImre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?


such a bad strawman.

Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match.
But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
May 17 2014 14:36 GMT
#156
On March 26 2014 20:40 Darrkhan wrote:
hyvaa!!!!!!....MKP

Tassadar also made it? Cool! Haven't seen him for a very long time.
I hope Flash, TY and Fantasy will do well next season


Mounds of Zergs coming out of retirement: Stephano; Byul; Hyvaa...I wonder why lol.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
May 17 2014 14:56 GMT
#157
On May 17 2014 22:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2014 22:25 sAsImre wrote:
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?


such a bad strawman.

Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match.
But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway


I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take
AdministratorBreak the chains
Tenhou
Profile Joined April 2011
1052 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 15:51:18
May 17 2014 15:01 GMT
#158
On May 17 2014 23:56 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2014 22:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On May 17 2014 22:25 sAsImre wrote:
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?


such a bad strawman.

Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match.
But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway


I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take


You didn't put enough effort into making the pun.
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
May 17 2014 15:02 GMT
#159
On May 17 2014 23:36 SirPinky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 20:40 Darrkhan wrote:
hyvaa!!!!!!....MKP

Tassadar also made it? Cool! Haven't seen him for a very long time.
I hope Flash, TY and Fantasy will do well next season


Mounds of Zergs coming out of retirement: Stephano; Byul; Hyvaa...I wonder why lol.


Must be the sick Hydra buff.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 15:26:00
May 17 2014 15:24 GMT
#160
Edit wrong thread
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 18:02:36
May 17 2014 18:02 GMT
#161
On May 17 2014 23:36 SirPinky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2014 20:40 Darrkhan wrote:
hyvaa!!!!!!....MKP

Tassadar also made it? Cool! Haven't seen him for a very long time.
I hope Flash, TY and Fantasy will do well next season


Mounds of Zergs coming out of retirement: Stephano; Byul; Hyvaa...I wonder why lol.


Stephano has been playing even after his "retirement".
When I think of something else, something will go here
EarthwormJim
Profile Joined February 2014
Canada94 Posts
May 17 2014 20:03 GMT
#162
Please for the love of God, Flash, don't die.
Groovy
EarthwormJim
Profile Joined February 2014
Canada94 Posts
May 18 2014 18:12 GMT
#163
On May 18 2014 05:03 EarthwormJim wrote:
Please for the love of God, Flash, don't die.

you died
Groovy
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