The second GSL qualifier of the year saw 24 players gaina entry into the upcoming Code A tournament.
Recently successful players like Flash, INnoVation, TY, and Rogue were finally able to shed ther Code B status, earning a shot at advancing to Code S.
Some fan favorites like Stork and FanTaSy were also able break through the qualifiers, but others like MarineKing and State were left to await the third and final qualifier of the year.
Notably absent was the entire CJ Entus squad. Players like EffOrt, Gumiho, Bunny, Skyhigh, Trust, and others were eligible to participate, but they all missed out on the qualifier. According to Korean website Daily Esports, CJ Entus stated that "As a result of an agreement between the front office and CJ players to continue the team's momentum after placing second in Proleague's Round 2, the players will temporarily halt their participation in qualifiers."
The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
A few players made unexpected returns. The previous inactive and rumored to be retired hyvaa fought his way through the qualifier, announcing his desire to sign with a team. Player-turned-coach-turned-player Choya also qualified, even defeating former pupil Hurricane in the process. ByuL returned to Korea from WCS America, citing a desire to help his team in Proleague according to Daily Esports.
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote: I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote: I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
Proleague always came first in bw, too. I'm not aware of any instance of a team not letting their players participate in an individual tournament's qualifiers. However, it was a common occurance that players can only practice for starleagues during their spare time (outside of their 8h/day team practice). This applied not only to qualifiers but also to the latter rounds of individual leagues.
What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.
According to Korean website Daily Esports, CJ Entus stated that "As a result of an agreement between the front office and CJ players to continue the team's momentum after placing second in Proleague's Round 2, the players will temporarily halt their participation in qualifiers."
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote: What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.
It's even more ridiculous in that it costs a team almost nothing to ferry there players to the studio or w/e to attend qualifiers, and if they get in, they still don't have to dedicate time to figuring out strategies and the like for each series. Oh well
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote: I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote: What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.
But they still are required to spent their time helping out the main players instead of improving their own play or focusing on GSL I guess.
hm i think that's a really bad decision by the cj entus team. if players build up momentum in individual tournaments they sure will be able to carry your team and you can only profit from it. very happy hyvaa made it and kind of funny to see choya making it :D
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote: I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
On March 26 2014 20:30 DARKING wrote: I cannot believe an entire team skipped the qualifiers to focus on proleague. Is this a first? Or did this happen in Brood War at some point as well?
I wonder how much it will even pay off
Hopefully enough to secure a playoffs spot
Maybe you are behind all of this, it all makes sense now ...^^
Terrans are still struggling. They barely can beat code B Zergs and Protosses and many of them advanced as a result of a TvT match..The chance of any of them to win a GSL in the foreseeable future is very low.
On March 26 2014 20:40 Waxangel wrote: What the Korean community is crticizing about CJ is that with the exception of EffOrt, none of the CJ players eligible for the qualifiers had figured importantly into CJ's Proleague campaign thus far. It's hard to think that they will be playing guys like Trust, or SkyHigh in the R2 playoffs.
Maybe they are expected to be good punching bags for the A-team rather than play for their own good? It actually makes more sense in this case as being punching bags brings something good to the team while for team's top lineup such qualifiers are decent practice - punching bags doesn't need it.
Impact made it through! Glad to see him finally break through into Code A. No Ryung in the qualifiers, is he going back to America?
Not sure I fully agree with CJ's decision, if they win R2 of PL though then maybe it'll be worth it. Sad to see State not make it again but one day he will, I know it.
CJ's policy doesn't make sense. Even if you want to focus on proleague, you can still go to the qualifiers and play normally without preparation. I'm sure that a few hours less of training time won't kill.
On the other hand, I feel bad for the Proleague benchwarmers from CJ. Has got to be terrible not being fielded there, and still not being allowed to play in the individual league...
I think CJ made a good decision. Even if they only sent people to the qualifiers who aren't going to be played in PL, if a bunch of their squad lost or something, it could change the environment of the team house. After a bad round 1, I think this was a good choice.
On March 26 2014 22:10 Vasoline73 wrote: I think CJ made a good decision. Even if they only sent people to the qualifiers who aren't going to be played in PL, if a bunch of their squad lost or something, it could change the environment of the team house. After a bad round 1, I think this was a good choice.
And seriously KT better sign Hyvva!
I hope they somehow sign Life before friday so we have another KT > SKT
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~
Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.
On March 26 2014 21:31 Pangpootata wrote: CJ's policy doesn't make sense. Even if you want to focus on proleague, you can still go to the qualifiers and play normally without preparation. I'm sure that a few hours less of training time won't kill.
But if you qualify you then have to practice for your individual matches. If you don't intend to practice for them, there is no point in trying to qualify.
Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote: Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~
Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.
And what did you expect? There is just more players of those races - there was no one in those brackets who really deserved to advance instead of the people who advanced...
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote: Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...
On March 26 2014 22:35 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: What a glorious day. Flash, FanTaSy, Baby & INnoVation advancing. hwaiting ~~
Come on man it's not like they qualified for Code S. It's just Code A for god sake and still more Zergs and Protosses qualified even when Protoss and Zerg already hugely dominate Code A and S.
And what did you expect? There is just more players of those races - there was no one in those brackets who really deserved to advance instead of the people who advanced...
Since when Proleague has been THE premier tournament in all of Sc2? wasn't the case in bw, still isn't in sc2.
B teamers were told to contribute more to the team instead of reaching for stardom, and their weaker A team players who have been losing all of their matches while being carried by herO and Bbyong were told that they need to focus on getting better and contributing to the team instead of reaching for stardom.
When they deserve it, they can compete in individual leagues again. Their decision makes perfect sense to me.... People criticize about CJ throwing out exposure, but what good is exposure when CJ was last place in round 1 of PL and if all of their players failed to qualify. There is such a thing as bad exposure too, especially for Coach Park right now. Lots of pressure on him to finally make a successful PL team again.
Although the Code A qualifiers are a lot more boring now than before, I'm glad that all of the people who qualified, qualified.
Seed qualified for Code A/Challenger for the 5th time since he won his GSL. Hopefully this doesn't end up with his 5th first-round knock out (he has been knocked out in the first round in three consecutive seasons now).
He clearly has a lot of determination to keep qualifying, but must be extremely frustrated with his studio performance since mid-2012
I don't understand Cj's decision. That's a really bad move. Yay for TY, Cure, Fantasy and Stork, a bit sad for how poor Prime did in this qualifier, I would have wished them that they could catch a break for once.
On March 27 2014 00:53 ACrow wrote: I don't understand Cj's decision. That's a really bad move. Yay for TY, Cure, Fantasy and Stork, a bit sad for how poor Prime did in this qualifier, I would have wished them that they could catch a break for once.
If CJ wins R2 Playoffs and then make playoffs in R3, i don't think someone will blame Coach Park for this decision. And seeing a lot of Proleague performers out in qualifiers, i don't think that anyone besides Gumi/Bunny probs could make Code B.
I really hope Flash shows great games. I have been waiting and waiting, only to watch Jaedong get better and better while Flash seems to be stuck. I'm hoping more mech = more Flash, but I won't be holding my breath.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA.
Do you even bother reading and getting informed before speaking. This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years. This has nothing to do with KESPA... AND don't speak for everyone. Just because you value GSL greater then proleague doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. I absolutely love Proleague. It is currently my favorite part of SC2 even if SKT is having some troubles.
I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right?
And finally, don't you start getting accusatory and attacking me. That's rude and unnecessary. These players are paid to be on a team. They signed contracts to have salaries. Any one of them could have chosen to leave the just like Jaedong did. Maybe these players are in agreement and really want to succeed as a team and hell, that sounds like a fine decision to me.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Flash and Innovation is lucky that this was double elimination. Armani is God. Flash needs to stop with his ruler shit and just practice. He just sucks ATM and needs to realise that being good in BW doesn't mean he will be good in SC2 and his 68-2 record in practice TvP means jack shit.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place.
Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. Team choice is actually very limited for most players. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.
Why are you whining about it and not players? Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.
Why are you whining about it and not players? Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
Yes, all the PL aces that qualified went to IEM. So yes, PL in no longer THE tournament, i am sorry if the Kespa fans have trouble dealing with this. It is pretty obvious that Korean tournaments aren't the sole focus of KR teams and players. Just accept it.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.
Then please take your Bisu crap back to BW forums. Thanks,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
i thought it applies with team/coach also. i remember reading something about a coach not wanting to let their international player go because of upcoming important game. perhaps they can only convince but not actually decide for them, but i remember coach putting his input on that regard.
if i recall, this isnt the first time team/coach prioritize pl over other events in sc2 and bw alike.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
It's not only in soccer. For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury. He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.
And players not only decide it in soccer, comment above is right. Sometimes coaches go against it, just because "no reason to play friendlies with your national team because you can get injury, blah-blah and we have Champions League playoffs in 2-3 weeks".
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury. He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.
Well that is a unique case since he was injured for most of the year, but I'll give you that example. However, I call foul on using any Islanders decision as an example of anything to prove a point! Visnovsky complied with the decision, but I'm actually curious what would have happened if he fought that decision. I actually can't think of another example of an NHL team preventing a player from playing in the olympics.
Olympic participation is written into the CBA for this very reason, so the NHL shuts down and players can particpate in them freely without missing team games. Henrik Sedin pulled himself out of the olympics due to injury because a classy organization like the canucks wasn't going to stop him from going if he wanted to.
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
It would be pretty unfair to send the players who aren't good enough to make PL appearances to the GSL qualifiers. You'd basically be rewarding them for not being as good, when the problem is the whole team isn't good enough at the moment. For the sake of team unity, I can believe that it has to be an all or nothing approach.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
That's almost certainly what it is. You know Coach Park is a stickler for routine, and you can't have a routine if various members are coming and going and practicing for individual leagues.
People can argue whether it's a good decision to make or not (and we'll find out) but that's CJ's call to make. They own the team, they can do whatever they want with it, they're paying the bills.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
Oh, please. "Iron fist of KeSPA?" You have no way to prove that KeSPA is behind CJ's decision, especially with all the other KeSPA teams participating in the qualifiers.
This is a CJ internal decision. It just shows that teams, even under KeSPA, can decide what they feel is better. Will it pay off? Who knows, but CJ can gamble if they want to, especially if Proleague takes precedence.
If you didn't realize, Korean corporate-sponsored teams still give big importance to Proleague, as it has been for years. This is the tournament where CJ Entus plays, not just some player sponsored by CJ. It's a critical difference between the Korean and foreign scene, and also what allowed the Korean scene to develop without needing Blizzard to throw money.
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote: Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story). In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition... How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?
Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.
Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to). KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.
Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.
Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote: Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story). In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition... How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?
Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.
Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to). KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.
Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.
Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.
you're doing one huge mistake. The US sport system is far from being universal. Teams have (almost) no way to prevent player to play for the national team in eurobasket/soccer/rugby/handball...
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
The difference is, everyone is taking teams as a gathering of individuals working towards the same goal, but more or less individually. Just how in all the western teams and even few Korean ones. Kespa teams are teams though. Those teams are ONLY there to participate in Proleague. The individual leagues are just a side thing that teams don't really care about.
Best comparison would imo be an international duty for football(/soccer) or hockey players. For Kespa teams, Proleague is the English Premier League. The individual league is the national team. It is very nice if your player does well, it raises his credit and then the credit of the team, but it is not his job. His job is to play in Premier League. That is why those teams exist. To play there, to win there and to represent their sponsors there.
And as far as national duty goes, there are billions of examples of coaches saying 'No!' to players wanting to represent their country during the season. Those examples are everywhere, in football and hockey (which are the only sports I watch). Just saying for my small country in last couple of months - Visnovsky not allowed to play in olympics by Islanders (yes, he eventually agreed with that, but only after it was clear to him that if he goes, he basically fucks up his team spot). Skrtel not allowed to play vs Poland (I think?) by Liverpool. Same for Holosko by Besiktas. In KHL (the Russian hockey league) they almost never let their players play the national team matches during the season (and I know, cause it's basically half of our national team). And that is just one small country - I believe you could find many more examples for other countries...
This CJ business is really bizarre. Being forced to prioritise Proleague practice over individual league, ok, but not even allowed to try to qualify? Never seen that happen before.
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote: Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...
Case of BW-tinted glasses here I think. Simply put Proleague may have been all-important in BW but it lacks the significance of GSL as far as SC2 goes. It doesn't have the same history in the newer game and the consequently attached prestige that comes with that. That isn't to say its not an important tournament however.
Some additional thoughts to my earlier comments: Can't help but feel this will turn out to be a massive mistake. You have more chance of keeping in the bigger leagues once you're already in. Missing out on one of the opportunities to get in there, especially with so few GSLs per year now, is a pretty big deal.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
I agree that KeSPA used to be able to screw people over like the NCAA does, and maybe still can do so, but they've given up most of their power as a governing player's association, and changed into a guidance and tournament/broadcasting organization. They pretty much just run ProLeague and help teams find sponsors now a days, whereas they used to be able to inflict all sorts of rules and regulations on anyone who touched their label.
As for CJ, they don't need their players to make a small sum of money playing in Code A if they actually won the qualifiers somehow. They'd rather those players keep to their regular practice routine and try to get to a Code S level before trying to compete. Regardless of how harmless you say competing in the qualifiers could be, when you actually compete, your mindset changes. Your practice routines change, and your mentality changes. Motivation sways one way or another. Right now, the practice partners need to be practice partners and not over extend their limits. Practice hard and help the team prepare for PL (even though they won't be playing, they still aid in the team's preparation), and get yourself to a level where you can prove yourself worthy of coming off the bench.
CJ sent herO to IEM and missed 2 PL matches, they could send their players to Code A, but it's not worth it to them as a whole. There are pluses and minuses to every decision, but regardless, this is a decision that CJ can and did make. Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest. Don't blame KeSPA when CJ sits their players out of GSL so they can focus on improving rather than winning.
On March 26 2014 22:48 -Celestial- wrote: Damn silly decision by CJ here. They give up any chance of representation in THE premier tournament in all of SC2 to "preserve" players that they're not even likely to play in proleague?
They gave up chance to play in individual league, in order to focus on THE premier tournament in all of SC2...
Case of BW-tinted glasses here I think. Simply put Proleague may have been all-important in BW but it lacks the significance of GSL as far as SC2 goes. It doesn't have the same history in the newer game and the consequently attached prestige that comes with that. That isn't to say its not an important tournament however.
Some additional thoughts to my earlier comments: Can't help but feel this will turn out to be a massive mistake. You have more chance of keeping in the bigger leagues once you're already in. Missing out on one of the opportunities to get in there, especially with so few GSLs per year now, is a pretty big deal.
The foreign fans care less about Proleague than in BW, but I'm unconvinced that the same is the case for Korean fans. According to many sources, the number of fans has increased by a lot since this season of Proleague began - coincidentally a season that's miles better than the last one. Did the game's popularity spike for no particular reason? Doubtful. The players still focus a lot on Proleague because of the sponsor exposure there is to gain from it and because coaches and management make it clear (in many cases) that Proleague is number one. As I've said, I don't necessarily support this move, but Proleague is obviously important both to the players and the teams and it makes some kind of sense for them to focus on PL above all else.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
NBA is biased, they didn't fine the Heat anything when the Heat sat their players just a few games later. I remember that fine, and it goes along with what I'm saying. NBA should have no right to decide how the teams strategize unless it breaks contract. Spurs didn't break any rules, but NBA made up bullshit to fine them and then was hypocritical at least one time in the same season. Since then, the Spurs will play their players for 1 or 2 minutes and then sit them the rest of the game just to avoid the NBA's bullshit. The result is the same though. It's saying that CJ players HAVE to play GSL.
You need to know what it's like to compete in a professional setting, or at least sympathize for it. It might sound stupid, but a mind set on improvement and a mind set on winning are two different minds. It's not just missing a day of practice, it's missing a lot more than that.
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
I feel like I should clear up some misconceptions about this situation. KeSPA had no part in CJ Entus not sending players to the Code A qualifiers. This was a decision made by the CJ organization and its players. Why would KeSPA not allow only 1 team from competing in Code A yet allow all the other teams to compete? We respect the CJ organization's decision to focus on Proleague and hope that this gamble pays off.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately. That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.
Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are. If you're player sympathetic, you would be rooting for them to join a team that will write a contract that let's then do whatever they want and will pay for whatever they want.
This is a business, and people are trying to do the best they can. Although any business would care about employee benefits, company benefits come first. In this case, CJ is saying that Code A is not a priority. Even if their player has a breakout run in Code A, it will negatively affect PL practice for the team. They want to be team oriented, and I'm thinking it's in their contract to follow what Coach Park says.
If all of their players were as good as herO, he would probably let them all play Code A, but since they aren't, they need to focus on getting better and helping out in the team house.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
Don't blame the NBA when the Mavericks sit Dirk out a game so he can rest.
Actually, while I don't mind teams resting stars near the playoffs for injury prevention, a team can take it too far! Also, I don't find the situations comparable because I disagree with you on how important missing half a day of practice would be on the players, including your mindset assessment.
League fines Spurs $250,000 for not playing stars vs. Miami
Here is Stern’s statement with the fine:
“The result here is dictated by the totality of the facts in this case. The Spurs decided to make four of their top players unavailable for an early-season game that was the team’s only regular-season visit to Miami. The team also did this without informing the Heat, the media, or the league office in a timely way. Under these circumstances, I have concluded that the Spurs did a disservice to the league and our fans.”
You're just looking at the surface without looking at what those things mean.
Nah, I'm just looking out for the players best interest. I bet they all wanted to play in the qualifiers, especially someone like gumiho, but wouldn't dare go against park and the team, so accepted the decision like good little soldiers. I think our disagreement comes from I'm more player sympathetic, while you're more team sympathetic.
I think you're over analyzing some things. You're treating one day of practice like the holy grail which would set off a chain reaction of doom on mindset, etc. if they missed it. I say the players would miss practice, but realistically, this would only happen if we assume the players have to practice 7 days a week 24/7. If the coach was flexible, then he would just switch one of their off days to the day of qualifiers and no practice time is missed at all. Or he could just cancel practice for that day. It's not unheard of in sports for a coach to cancel a planned practice either due to he thinks the team might be too fatigued, thinks they've been overworked recently or just as a reward.
You're two paragraphs are opposing statements. First you say you're for the players, and second you assume that the players will lose immediately. That is the only scenario where they will lose only one day of practice.
Also, I'm not being sympathetic of the team, I'm just telling you how things work. That's just the way things are.
Nah, my paragraphs aren't in conflict because I didn't assume they would lose. The one day of loss practice is true. If they keep winning in gsl, then they would just practice both like hero, unless you think hero should drop out of gsl so he only has to practice for proleague? Cause if you want to count gsl practice time as not counting as practice, then you would have to do so for hero too. That's why I don't count any players who would have made gsl as losing practice time.
Also, you are team sympathetic because that's not how things work or how things are. It's how they are for CJ only as every other team let their players attend the qualifiers. That's what this whole debate is about - Coach Park's decision to prevent his players from playing in the qualifiers. I think his decision was wrong because that's not how things work or how things are for every other team. You seem to disagree and side with park, which is fine, but don't try to pass off his decision as normal as his decision was abnormal compared to every other team.
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take
On May 17 2014 22:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you are saying that he would have lost if he would have tried to qualify?
such a bad strawman.
Well you didn't say that i agree, but you did imply it, otherwise there would be no reason to even state that effort is code B and did win the match. But whatever, i am not even interested in that stuff anymore, CJ won't win tomorrow anyway
I bumped this thread to make a witty pun but apparently it didn't take