On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
i thought it applies with team/coach also. i remember reading something about a coach not wanting to let their international player go because of upcoming important game. perhaps they can only convince but not actually decide for them, but i remember coach putting his input on that regard.
if i recall, this isnt the first time team/coach prioritize pl over other events in sc2 and bw alike.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
It's not only in soccer. For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury. He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.
And players not only decide it in soccer, comment above is right. Sometimes coaches go against it, just because "no reason to play friendlies with your national team because you can get injury, blah-blah and we have Champions League playoffs in 2-3 weeks".
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
sOs and herO are a lot of Proleague aces? :D
I'm not gonna argue.
On March 27 2014 02:23 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:43 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:22 Canucklehead wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:09 BisuDagger wrote:
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
I only follow soccer casually, but isn't it written that it's the players choice to go or not and teams cannot prevent the player from going if he wants to? The only league I casually follow is the EPL and I always remember teams losing players to the african nations cup. In the end it's the players choice is my point. People can criticize the players for going or not going, but in the end the player had the right to decide for themselves, unlike here with cj players.
For example. NY Islanders from NHL didn't let Lyubomir Visnovsky to go to Sochi with Slovakia national team because he just came from injury. He wanted to go, his country wanted him to go but club went against all odds and didn't let him.
Well that is a unique case since he was injured for most of the year, but I'll give you that example. However, I call foul on using any Islanders decision as an example of anything to prove a point! Visnovsky complied with the decision, but I'm actually curious what would have happened if he fought that decision. I actually can't think of another example of an NHL team preventing a player from playing in the olympics.
Olympic participation is written into the CBA for this very reason, so the NHL shuts down and players can particpate in them freely without missing team games. Henrik Sedin pulled himself out of the olympics due to injury because a classy organization like the canucks wasn't going to stop him from going if he wanted to.
I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
It would be pretty unfair to send the players who aren't good enough to make PL appearances to the GSL qualifiers. You'd basically be rewarding them for not being as good, when the problem is the whole team isn't good enough at the moment. For the sake of team unity, I can believe that it has to be an all or nothing approach.
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
That's almost certainly what it is. You know Coach Park is a stickler for routine, and you can't have a routine if various members are coming and going and practicing for individual leagues.
People can argue whether it's a good decision to make or not (and we'll find out) but that's CJ's call to make. They own the team, they can do whatever they want with it, they're paying the bills.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
Oh, please. "Iron fist of KeSPA?" You have no way to prove that KeSPA is behind CJ's decision, especially with all the other KeSPA teams participating in the qualifiers.
This is a CJ internal decision. It just shows that teams, even under KeSPA, can decide what they feel is better. Will it pay off? Who knows, but CJ can gamble if they want to, especially if Proleague takes precedence.
If you didn't realize, Korean corporate-sponsored teams still give big importance to Proleague, as it has been for years. This is the tournament where CJ Entus plays, not just some player sponsored by CJ. It's a critical difference between the Korean and foreign scene, and also what allowed the Korean scene to develop without needing Blizzard to throw money.
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote: Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story). In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition... How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?
Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.
Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to). KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.
Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.
Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.
On March 27 2014 01:56 Canucklehead wrote: Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
It's not KeSPA, it is CJ. Why should KeSPA have the right to interfere with a particular team's strategies so long as those strategies don't breach lawful contracts?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished. The problem is that the fans care only about the entertainment of it and don't push towards making the business less manipulative. It uses students, who are not allowed to accept money due to scholastic requirements, to provoke massive marketing opportunities, and uses student's money, whom many have absolutely no interest in those particular sports that the institution is forcing them to pay for, to launch their school into a massive money making industry (which I don't even know why it makes money, college sports are not very entertaining in my opinion, but that's another story). In other words, they get students money to pay for making the school massive amounts of money. Coaches also make massive amounts of money. Student scholarships are also limited per team, depending on how the school divides up their athletic monies, thus leaving quite a large part of the students to receive only partial scholarships (making them pay a very significant amount of money to the institution), and even forces some of their players to pay full tuition... How can college coaches making the same amount of money (on average) as professional coaches (even the highest paid college coaches making almost as much money as the highest paid professional coaches), and the players that those coaches are using being forced to pay overwhelming tuition fees, be a system that you use as an example of justice, righteousness, and idealism?
Pretending college sports was a valid example to use though, the particular example you illuminate is an example of verbal and physical abuse. It's on a 100% different level from CJ's situation. It doesn't have any place in this conversation.
Now then.. Talking about what real teams do in sports that aren't eSports, teams very often times prohibit their players from playing in other tournaments (such as world cup football, world cup basketball, olympics, and any other tournament that goes on outside of the one individual team league that the player is signed to). KeSPA is doing a GREAT job by opening up and letting both foreigners play in PL as well as allowing PL teams to participate in non KeSPA leagues and tournaments. They are doing an awesome job at being open and fair, doing what's best only for the players and teams that fuel eSports.
Your favorite basketball/football/baseball/whatever team does have the right to disallow your favorite player from playing in the FIBA World Cup/FIFA World Cup/World Baseball Classic/etc, just like CJ has the right to disallow our favorite players from playing in GSL/DreamHack/MLG/etc.
Who's paying and allowing those players to play? The teams are. If the team has the best opportunity stemming from 1 league (which that is the case almost 100% of the time, and is mostly the case as far as ProLeague is concerned), it will be in their best interest to focus their efforts on that league. CJ has done so, and, so long as it doesn't breach contract (which I can say with 99.9% confidence that it doesn't), has every right to do so.
you're doing one huge mistake. The US sport system is far from being universal. Teams have (almost) no way to prevent player to play for the national team in eurobasket/soccer/rugby/handball...
On March 27 2014 03:59 Zealously wrote: I'm not the hugest fan of CJ's decision, but can we at least wait until the round playoffs and a few weeks in round 3 before we judge? If CJ can secure a playoffs spot before round 4 even begins by placing highly in rounds 2 and 3, then the pressure is off Proleague practise for the last round and they can prepare to hell and back for individual leagues. I know people don't care as much about Proleague in SC2 as in BW, but at least wait and see if CJ can reap the benefits of this (albeit somewhat strange) decision before declaring that CJ management is full of tyrants.
I can't wait for SkyHigh to put CJ on the back of his shoulders!
As for the two or three players that don't really get fielded, it might be more of an equality thing. "Hey look, the rules go for everyone." or something. It's not flawless, but I think I'd feel a little better if my coach kept me from going to certain meets and I knew that nobody else was going either.
College sports is the worst example you can give. The entire system is corrupt and its entire name is tarnished.
Actually, I think college sports is one of the best examples because I do agree with you that the NCAA is corrupt and have archaic and dumb rules that allows them to make millions off the backs of unpaid athletes. It's the perfect example of the power they wield like Kespa. However, given all that the NCAA will still sanction coaches who go over the line. I'm not saying Kespa will never sanction people either, but it has to be very egregious, such as match fixing, etc.
Also, I would lean more to the CJ side if the players were actually missing PL games since the players are primarily contracted for PL, so I applaud teams letting players go to IEM, etc. I still think it should be on a case by case basis and how important that tourney would be to the player, but I'm willing to say the team's have the right for players not to miss PL matches if they so choose. However, in this case the players won't be missing any games and will only miss half a day to a day of practice at most.
I think it's not exactly the same as players in sports going to national teams because they're going to represent their country and not their individual glory. SC2 is always tricky to compare to sports at times because while PL is a team league, SC2 is at its core an individual game, like tennis, golf, etc. Those players only represent themselves, except for specific team/country tournaments where they play under a team. Problem is there's not enough money in esports for sc2 players to be like tennis and golf players. In an ideal esports world, all sc2 players would be like polt, white ra and grubby.
I do admit to siding with players in esports more just because of the money factor. If PL players were getting paid millions then I would probably have less sympathy. The boston bruins let Zdeno Chara miss 2 regular season games to be the flag bearer for slovakia. I wouldn't really have a problem if the bruins didn't let him do that as he's paid to play in the NHL. Also, my viewpoint comes primary from watching NA sports where the issue of leaving the local team for the national team mid season doesn't really come up unlike in soccer and stuff, so it's not something I've thought about strongly on who is right and wrong there.
I like to use sports examples because it's common to do so, but admit the comparisons are not always valid and comparable due to the vast economic differences that exist b/w esports and professional sports. Also, another primary difference being players have no power in esports as there's no players association. It's a very unbalanced level of power, that I don't see changing any time soon because the time and money needed to establish a players association is not realistic. Then you have the prob of all the leagues throughout the world needing to agree with each other and listen to a players association.
Sports don't have that problem because the leagues are their own entity. While esports leagues/tourneys are their own entity as well, it's a bit different as there's no player exclusivity with those tourneys apart from Riot and the LCS. Like the NHLPA looks out for players in the NHL. Not for players in the KHL or swedish elite league, etc. The NHL can then form agreements with other leauges like the KHL like respecting each other's contracts and not poach each other's players. It's all a very complex process when you're talking about multiple leagues/tourneys in esports, which I don't think would be solved any time soon due to the economic realities of esports.
EPT
Visnovsky complied with the decision, but I'm actually curious what would have happened if he fought that decision. I actually can't think of another example of an NHL team preventing a player from playing in the olympics. 
