On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA. IT'S NOT KESPA.
Do you even bother reading and getting informed before speaking. This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years. This has nothing to do with KESPA... AND don't speak for everyone. Just because you value GSL greater then proleague doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. I absolutely love Proleague. It is currently my favorite part of SC2 even if SKT is having some troubles.
I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right?
And finally, don't you start getting accusatory and attacking me. That's rude and unnecessary. These players are paid to be on a team. They signed contracts to have salaries. Any one of them could have chosen to leave the just like Jaedong did. Maybe these players are in agreement and really want to succeed as a team and hell, that sounds like a fine decision to me.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Flash and Innovation is lucky that this was double elimination. Armani is God. Flash needs to stop with his ruler shit and just practice. He just sucks ATM and needs to realise that being good in BW doesn't mean he will be good in SC2 and his 68-2 record in practice TvP means jack shit.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place.
Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. Team choice is actually very limited for most players. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.
Why are you whining about it and not players? Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
You're speaking about "player abuse" when you hadn't seen players contracts? Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it. And Proleague > GSL, even if Proleague is probably past of its prime.
Same as was Manchester United when Fergie was coach. United-Children-Wife, not in different order.
Well, at least we know that IEM WC>PL because a lot of PL aces skipped PL for IEM. I think it is time for the Kespa snobs to realise that PL is just another tournament,
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
So? At least those skt players still have an individual league to play in even if their team loses in proleague. Soul and woongjin were top two last year. Where are they now? Winning proleague isn't that big of a deal these days. Feel sorry for the cj players forced to miss the qualifiers against their will.
Iron fist of kespa wins out again over player rights. However, I guess you're in favour of stomping all over player's rights and freedoms as long as it's in the name of proleague right? Kespa loves fans like you! Imagine if coach park tried to pull that off with eg/tl players saying they couldn't attend qualifiers or foreign tourneys? Eg/tl would laugh in his face saying we believe in this little thing called players choice here.
This was a decision upon the CJ Management and Coach Park who did the same thing 8 years ago and then placed in 1st or 2nd for the next 8 years.
Huh not according to the op.
On March 26 2014 20:23 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: The move is not without some precedent. In 2006, SK Telecom T1 (not during the coach Park regime) forced its players to choose between just one of the OSL or MSL (the two major individual tournaments of Brood War) to try and focus more on Proleague. Despite this policy, SKT did not see improved Proleague results and later rescinded the widely criticized decision.
Also, you can shout it's not kespa all you want, but I really don't know why you try to separate coach park from kespa. Kespa is the regulatory body and they could choose to discipline/sanction coaches who do things they don't approve/agree with. You think coaches/management in sports like the ncaa, nfl, nba, nhl, etc have total freedom in how they treat players?
Hell no they don't and sanctions/penalties would come down hard on them not just from the league but from the players associations of those leagues as well. You want a list of college coaches who have been fired over player abuse allegations? You can't just separate individual coaches/management from kespa because any kespa inaction is implicit compliance with cj's action. That's the problem with esports. Players rights are still a million times less than players rights in regular sports leagues.
Here, I'll give you a real life example of a college coach fired over player abuse. Now, if rutgers or the ncaa took no action, you're damn right I would blame them too. However, since they did take action I can separate the coach's individual action from rutgers/ncaa and solely just blame the coach because the school was not complicit or approved of such actions.
I actually think college coaches is a great comparison here with kespa coaches because college coaches wield more power and authority over players than coaches in the pro leagues. That's why you always hear about player abuse with college coaches because they make millions while college athletes are unpaid, whereas in the pro leagues, most players make more money than the coaches. It's all about money/power relationship when it comes down to how far coaches will go.
Seriously? I bet, that there is a line in KeSPA teams contracts that team > all, you work for it.
No, that's precisely my point. IF such a contract existed then I would blame Kespa for allowing such a clause. There's such a thing as reasonable and unreasonable things in team contracts. The problem I have is people absolving kespa of blame or defending such contracts in the first place. The defenders just want to allow teams to write any contract they want no matter how unreasonable. Then blame the player for signing such a contract in the first place. Sure you can blame the players, but you have to remember not everyone is a Jaedong who can easily find another team. It's all very anti players rights to me and I'm in favour of defending players rights.
I bet coaches in pro sports leagues would love to have their players practice more. In fact some have said so in the past. However, in those leagues the maximum amount of practice time and days they can practice is written into the CBA of the leagues, so coaches can't go overboard with it.
Comparing amounts of practice in sports and esports is a joke.
Why are you whining about it and not players? Had at least one CJ Entus player whose name isn't Bbyong, herO, Hydra or Sora whined that they had chance to go to Code S? Effort, who is BW champion will whine? Gumiho will whine? Other CJ guys who didn't have a chance? I don't think so. They're teamplayers, they realise that it's better in current situation, they're professionals at least.
It's like soccer when you can choose between going to national team or staying in the club. Both parts can be right, right? And always someone blames player who chooses one side or another.
Yes, all the PL aces that qualified went to IEM. So yes, PL in no longer THE tournament, i am sorry if the Kespa fans have trouble dealing with this. It is pretty obvious that Korean tournaments aren't the sole focus of KR teams and players. Just accept it.
On March 27 2014 01:06 Canucklehead wrote: Feel sad for the cj players. Another case with no individual freedom under kespa teams.
WTF? This has nothing to do with Kespa. It's the coaches decision. See my post before yours with coach Parks achivements. See how SKT has 5 or so players in code S but can't win PL. Coach Park knows what he is doing.
Coach Swagger winning with just 2 Code A players and dragging his team from 7th to 4th (Not withstanding the times they almost overtook 1st) and they let their players go into Code A Qualifers.
Is Coach SwagHo the new Coach Bonjwa?
If they win out I'm willing to discuss this.
BW is a much easier games since Bisu can still win while he just sucked in SC2. I guess the strategic thinking was too much for him and he couldn't just rely on his multitasking, all the RTS talent is in SC2 while Bisu went back to beating up noobs in BW.
This is offtopic and flamebait. Please consider what forum you are in and how to post on TL.
Then please take your Bisu crap back to BW forums. Thanks,
EPT
