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On March 22 2014 03:04 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 02:59 Squat wrote:2014 results indicate, that Snute/TLO have surpassed her at that point, Vortix or Nerchio aren't that far away either. I think, the spot of the number 1 foreigner is wildly open. It's a close race for sure, but to say TLO and Snute has surpassed her I just straight up disagree with. They have yet to demonstrate that they can beat the same caliber opponents with anything resembling regularity. I think Snute has the potential to become a serious rival for Scarlett, but he's not there just yet. She's also had a pretty big slump recently, let's just wait and see until she gets to settle down a little in Korea before we jump to conclusions. When I say, that they surpassed her, I don't mean surpassing her at her peak, but surpassing her in her current state. She lost at Shoutcraft, Enders game invitational, WCS AM, while the euro zergs both advanced in WCS and held at Seatstorycup. I'd still rate a 2013 Scarlett above them at the moment, but she hasn't shown to be in that shape for a while now.
Yeah, that's what a slump means. Everyone has them. Stephano didn't do very well the last few months before he retired, but we judge him for what he accomplished, not for what he didn't. We'll see I guess. She's playing Snute in less than an hour in a Bo3, could be interesting.
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This again proves that he behaves like a 15 years old...
I am pretty sure he will not survive the real world if he keeps this attitude.
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Breaking news: sponsors and businesses are moneywhores who care about appearances.
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players like naniwa and idra are toxic.
they have been backstabbing this industry for so long.
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On March 22 2014 03:10 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 03:04 Xoronius wrote:On March 22 2014 02:59 Squat wrote:2014 results indicate, that Snute/TLO have surpassed her at that point, Vortix or Nerchio aren't that far away either. I think, the spot of the number 1 foreigner is wildly open. It's a close race for sure, but to say TLO and Snute has surpassed her I just straight up disagree with. They have yet to demonstrate that they can beat the same caliber opponents with anything resembling regularity. I think Snute has the potential to become a serious rival for Scarlett, but he's not there just yet. She's also had a pretty big slump recently, let's just wait and see until she gets to settle down a little in Korea before we jump to conclusions. When I say, that they surpassed her, I don't mean surpassing her at her peak, but surpassing her in her current state. She lost at Shoutcraft, Enders game invitational, WCS AM, while the euro zergs both advanced in WCS and held at Seatstorycup. I'd still rate a 2013 Scarlett above them at the moment, but she hasn't shown to be in that shape for a while now. Yeah, that's what a slump means. Everyone has them. Stephano didn't do very well the last few months before he retired, but we judge him for what he accomplished, not for what he didn't. We'll see I guess. She's playing Snute in less than an hour in a Bo3, could be interesting.
Yes, sure, I know what slump means. That slump is the reason, she isn't the nr.1 anymore, that spot is given out by current state of the player, not by past accomplishments, otherwise we would call HuK/Nerchio/MaNa/ThorZaIN the top foreigners, who play actively atm. Sadly I won`t be around in an hour anymore, otherwise I'd watch that.
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On March 22 2014 03:04 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 01:55 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2014 01:42 Dracolich70 wrote:On March 22 2014 01:22 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2014 01:14 Dracolich70 wrote:On March 22 2014 00:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:As far as I'm concerned there is nothing worse than forfeiting a $100,000 exclusive high-profile event in front of a pissed off crowd and then lying about your reasons why. It is never fun being humiliated, when you have already said, your heart is not in it, and yet, sent away to do. I am sure, someone as intelligent as you can understand, TB(or at least your private side of the business). Not sure, if the soundproof thing was a lie, but I find it human to fetch an excuse, when being humilated for reason you already knew beforehand. Regardless of any notion of otherwise, I am sure, most players play for their own, rather than for a bunch of people paying to watch them play out of form. Stephano forfeited plenty of tournaments as far as I recall. Not in this fashion. Context is king. And Naniwa is a grown ass adult with a job. What he did is like one of my attorneys losing it infront of a judge and getting held in contempt. You get fired for that shit. Life is hard in the working world, get a helmet. Yes, context is king. I am sure you would get fired for sending one of your attorneys unsuitable to take a case, because he lost it, while being warned by that employee beforehand, that he couldn't. Oh that would never happen. We are paid to take losing cases we don't want all time. Not every client hires you for a winner. No one is excited to get their ass handed to them on court, but we do it because is paychecks. So no, we always do things we don't like, because we are professionals. Maybe that shows the difference. You are willing to do anything for a paycheck, whereas Naniwa is not. Naniwa is a winner, and cares if he is in a position to win or not. I am sure, you make sure you pick people who care about the paycheck more than being the winner. So different premises I am sure.
I consider myself a winner every time I pay the mortgage. That's the different between me and Naniwa. I'm a fuckig grown up and other people rely on me. Naniwa only cares about himself and what he wants. It's always been that way.
And when you don't do your job, you get fired. It's not rocket science. If you don't want to go to IEM, don't got and get fired. Don't go, throw a fit on stage and then get yourself fired.
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Why Alliance and IEM wanted a guy who hadn't practiced the game for a long time to play in the tournament is beyond me.
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On March 22 2014 02:36 Enel wrote:
Guess what? We are all alive. It wasn't the apocalypse.
Wow, that stunning counterargument. Ok, thanks for confirming that Naniwa was not the one to cause the extinction of the entire human race. He probably also didn't murder a kid or set fire to Odee's house either. He's not responsible for Darfur War orphans so I guess all is forgiven.
Or y'know, it isn't, because it's a moronic fallacy to suggest that just because something wasn't the end of the world that it wasn't still serious in some way. Such blatant ignorance on display from some people. I get it, almost none of you run a team so you don't have inside knowledge or perspective, but at least try and put yourself in the shoes of people that are, who are fiscally tied to this scene and dedicate their lives to its growth.
I just feel like TB is on a mission to crucify Naniwa and i don't like it. He's in every Naniwa post or thread with the same shitty message.
Ahha you have uncovered my masterplan. I'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those pesky forum posters. Funny definition of "shitty message" you have there, apparently a well reasoned statement from someone in a position to know what he's talking about is a "Shitty message" in your eyes. Well, what on earth does that make your posts then, I have to wonder...
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On March 22 2014 03:17 Orek wrote:
Why Alliance and IEM wanted a guy who hadn't practiced the game for a long time to play in the tournament is beyond me.
Well, it seems to have been mostly Alliance wish, judging from Kennigits posts.
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On March 22 2014 03:03 Sakray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 00:48 YoloSwaggins wrote:On March 21 2014 23:41 Sakray wrote:On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote:
Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez how can people be so delusional? I guess most of these comments come from 14 year olds who have never worked for a second in their lives. if you don't do your job, you're fired. if you get money to do something, and you don't do it, you get fired. As a 22 y/o working as a developer for one of the biggest company in the world, I'll take that as a compliment. But I'll use another example : you're developer, and your company puts you on a project where you depend of the files the client sent you. If the said files are utter bullshit and you can't do anything with it, it's your right to say to your company "I can't do the work" and step off of the project. It's a bit extreme but you get the idea. First you try to get the right/correct files from the one you're supposed to get them from. If that doesnt work, you try via another route. If that doesnt work, you contact your company as to what to do. Follow those instructions, which might be to indeed drop the case, or contact the client again with alternatives. Deciding to drop a project on your own without doing your absolute best to obtain necessary files is about the worst thing you can do.
Going through this analogy, it's clear naniwa missed a few steps.
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guys , naniwa skipped a lot of lans prior to this.
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On March 22 2014 03:19 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 03:03 Sakray wrote:On March 22 2014 00:48 YoloSwaggins wrote:On March 21 2014 23:41 Sakray wrote:On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote:
Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez how can people be so delusional? I guess most of these comments come from 14 year olds who have never worked for a second in their lives. if you don't do your job, you're fired. if you get money to do something, and you don't do it, you get fired. As a 22 y/o working as a developer for one of the biggest company in the world, I'll take that as a compliment. But I'll use another example : you're developer, and your company puts you on a project where you depend of the files the client sent you. If the said files are utter bullshit and you can't do anything with it, it's your right to say to your company "I can't do the work" and step off of the project. It's a bit extreme but you get the idea. First you try to get the right/correct files from the one you're supposed to get them from. If that doesnt work, you try via another route. If that doesnt work, you contact your company as to what to do. Follow those instructions, which might be to indeed drop the case, or contact the client again with alternatives. Deciding to drop a project on your own without doing your absolute best to obtain necessary files is about the worst thing you can do. Going through this analogy, it's clear naniwa missed a few steps.
Actually I was trying to say that your client gave you shitty files, not corrupted ones. Like, absolutely not documented, badly written, etc... If you can't do the work with what they gave you and they're not willing to spend more time on them, dropping the project seems correct to me.
Maybe the "they're not willing to spend more time on them" part is, in Naniwa's case, when he was talking to the admin.
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On March 22 2014 03:21 xsnac wrote:
guys , naniwa skipped a lot of lans prior to this.
So? Did he do it on stage and get booed off by the crowd those other times?
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Naniwa skilled about every 2nd tournament under alliance he was under.
he didnt stream, but as he said himself before, it was part of his contract.
he basically didnt do his job for at least 2 months, why would they fire him? :O
guys, its a JOB. ofc u get fired if you behave like an idiot.
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On March 22 2014 02:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:Entire crowd booed him. Clearly they disagree with you. I as a team owner disagree with you. Had any of my players done that on that stage I would have fired them immediately. It was bad enough when CranK overslept and missed an open bracket game at an MLG, management took full responsibility for that. Then there was the issue of his lackluster play against his team-mate in WCS, there were consequences for that too. The bad publicity we received from both, well there are people who still bring up the WCS thing and that was a year ago and RO16 of a WCS America, not the biggest stage in Starcraft with $100k winner takes all. How your player acts reflects directly on the team. They are contracted to do a job and they are expected to perform their duties to a certain standard. In doing so they represent the team and their sponsors. Anything that player does which generates bad publicity reflects poorly on all of the above. This was the most severe thing I've ever seen an SC2 player do in his capacity as a player and in the context of a tournament environment. Nothing in the last 4 years comes close. So yeah, to say forfeits are not that big a deal shows an awful lot of ignorance about how the pro-scene works and how teams operate. It would also reflect badly on you, if you sent in a player that hadn't practiced for the tournament, in spite of him saying he couldn't. That is also very poor man-management. Professionalism goes both ways. Just like human understanding.
You say the management took full responsibility for it, shows the difference, does it not? Did you fire Crank for being unprofessional? Or did you know that eSport is a different level of professionalism, and told him to do better, as it reflects poorly on the both of you.
Maybe there is a difference in TotalBiscuit the businessman, and John Bain, the human being. I think so. And I think you would never have put one of your players in this situation.
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On March 22 2014 02:59 Enel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 02:40 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2014 02:36 Enel wrote:On March 22 2014 02:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:forfits are not that big of a deal. Entire crowd booed him. Clearly they disagree with you. I as a team owner disagree with you. Had any of my players done that on that stage I would have fired them immediately. It was bad enough when CranK overslept and missed an open bracket game at an MLG, management took full responsibility for that. Then there was the issue of his lackluster play against his team-mate in WCS, there were consequences for that too. The bad publicity we received from both, well there are people who still bring up the WCS thing and that was a year ago and RO16 of a WCS America, not the biggest stage in Starcraft with $100k winner takes all. How your player acts reflects directly on the team. They are contracted to do a job and they are expected to perform their duties to a certain standard. In doing so they represent the team and their sponsors. Anything that player does which generates bad publicity reflects poorly on all of the above. This was the most severe thing I've ever seen an SC2 player do in his capacity as a player and in the context of a tournament environment. Nothing in the last 4 years comes close. So yeah, to say forfeits are not that big a deal shows an awful lot of ignorance about how the pro-scene works and how teams operate. Guess what? We are all alive. It wasn't the apocalypse. Good counter argument... "No one died, so I guess it doesn't matter at all." That's not at all what im sayin. It does matter and Naniwa got fired for it. I just feel like TB is on a mission to crucify Naniwa and i don't like it. He's in every Naniwa post or thread with the same shitty message.
I feel like TB's been very pro-Naniwa prior to this. Granted TB is prone to his... well mood swings, but IIRC he's rooted for Naniwa many times in the past.
But anyways, this thread is a bit too crazy for me.
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On March 22 2014 03:22 Sakray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 03:19 Yorbon wrote:On March 22 2014 03:03 Sakray wrote:On March 22 2014 00:48 YoloSwaggins wrote:On March 21 2014 23:41 Sakray wrote:On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote:
Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez how can people be so delusional? I guess most of these comments come from 14 year olds who have never worked for a second in their lives. if you don't do your job, you're fired. if you get money to do something, and you don't do it, you get fired. As a 22 y/o working as a developer for one of the biggest company in the world, I'll take that as a compliment. But I'll use another example : you're developer, and your company puts you on a project where you depend of the files the client sent you. If the said files are utter bullshit and you can't do anything with it, it's your right to say to your company "I can't do the work" and step off of the project. It's a bit extreme but you get the idea. First you try to get the right/correct files from the one you're supposed to get them from. If that doesnt work, you try via another route. If that doesnt work, you contact your company as to what to do. Follow those instructions, which might be to indeed drop the case, or contact the client again with alternatives. Deciding to drop a project on your own without doing your absolute best to obtain necessary files is about the worst thing you can do. Going through this analogy, it's clear naniwa missed a few steps. Actually I was trying to say that your client gave you shitty files, not corrupted ones. Like, absolutely not documented, badly written, etc... If you can't do the work with what they gave you and they're not willing to spend more time on them, dropping the project seems correct to me. Maybe the "they're not willing to spend more time on them" part is, in Naniwa's case, when he was talking to the admin. Contacting the team was not an option? Especially in public cases communication with your employer seems vital.
Besides, what you call unwillingness is an assumption. We don't know if the files actually were 'shitty' or not, or if the booth was soundproof. All the more a reason to communicate with your employer.
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Seriously, why is this a surprise?
He's not playing SC2 anymore and he's also a walking PR disaster within the community. Good, and entirely expected move by Alliance.
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On March 22 2014 03:26 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 02:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:forfits are not that big of a deal. Entire crowd booed him. Clearly they disagree with you. I as a team owner disagree with you. Had any of my players done that on that stage I would have fired them immediately. It was bad enough when CranK overslept and missed an open bracket game at an MLG, management took full responsibility for that. Then there was the issue of his lackluster play against his team-mate in WCS, there were consequences for that too. The bad publicity we received from both, well there are people who still bring up the WCS thing and that was a year ago and RO16 of a WCS America, not the biggest stage in Starcraft with $100k winner takes all. How your player acts reflects directly on the team. They are contracted to do a job and they are expected to perform their duties to a certain standard. In doing so they represent the team and their sponsors. Anything that player does which generates bad publicity reflects poorly on all of the above. This was the most severe thing I've ever seen an SC2 player do in his capacity as a player and in the context of a tournament environment. Nothing in the last 4 years comes close. So yeah, to say forfeits are not that big a deal shows an awful lot of ignorance about how the pro-scene works and how teams operate. It would also reflect badly on you, if you sent in a player that hadn't practiced for the tournament, in spite of him saying he couldn't. That is also very poor man-management. Professionalism goes both ways. Just like human understanding. You say the management took full responsibility for it, shows the difference, does it not? Did you fire Crank for being unprofessional? Or did you know that eSport is a different level of professionalism, and told him to do better, as it reflects poorly on the both of you. Maybe there is a difference in TotalBiscuit the businessman, and John Bain, the human being. I think so. And I think you would never have put one of your players in this situation.
Actually the reason CranK wasnt fired for that is that it wasn't severe enough to warrant it. That and our grand sum of experience of eSports team management of that point could be measured in a handful of months. If it was CranK on that stage and he did the same thing, I would have fired him, bearing in mind the fact that we know soundproofing was not a factor.
I do think you bring up an interesting point though on the subject of "man-management" (human resources). Do you send a player who is clearly incapable at that point of doing his job, to the biggest tournament this year so far? How much did Alliance really know about his current state of mind and play? He doesn't live in a team-house. If I needed to know how my players were doing I could refer to inhouse rankings, our archived replays, ladder rank, win/loss ratio lately and perhaps most importantly, the opinions of his teammates. Dunno how much of that Alliance could really do. Naniwa claims he did not want to go to the tournament, ok, well how adamant was he? Was it typical Naniwa stubborn-ness or was it genuinely "DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SEND ME BECAUSE THIS WILL BE HORRIBLE". If the latter, you could make a case that Alliance should not have sent him, however you cannot make a case that defends Naniwas actions at the event itself.
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EPT
