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On March 04 2014 20:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 20:02 -Celestial- wrote:On March 04 2014 18:18 architecture wrote:
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed. I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them. If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority. Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways. I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
I think that P skill ceilling is high, with blink, force fields, phoenyx and warp prism you can do a lot of awesome plays with micro...
But we have to admit that P is really really really easy to use, W+hotkey and PAM! you have your gateway army ready then A+forward to victory (low leagues ofc), even land your storms is easy.
But I don´t know how balance can change that aspect of P playstyle.
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On March 04 2014 20:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 20:02 -Celestial- wrote:On March 04 2014 18:18 architecture wrote:
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed. I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them. If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority. Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways. I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
The protoss players are right about this. Regardless of whether something is true or not doesnt mean it isnt toxic for the community especially at this point. Kinda like how protoss all ins are easier to roll terrans and we all roll up our sleeves and crusade for buffs or nerfs to even complete redesign to fix the problem?
I demand my fellow terrans shut the fuck up about protoss having no mirco and being easier because its becoming a huge problem that only serves in a counterproductive manner.
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The myth that Protoss units don't need to be microed is one of the most hilarious things I read on this forum. From reading the comments here it sounds like all you have to do is turtle behind a mothership core until you have storm and Colossus and then literally press F2, A on the opposite corner of the map, grab some pop-corn sit back and relax while you win.
The fact is that there are many aspect of Protoss micro that Terrans don't understand:
1) By the 4 minute mark we already have 6 spells to keep track of. By the end of the game in a standard PvT it's up to 9 spells/abilities (and that's just on the most commonly used units). Compare that to Stim, cloak, EMP, and scan (4).
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
3) We also have vastly different move speeds, from Stalkers who are fairly fast to Templar.. basically the slowest units besides queens off creep. Just getting our army to move from point A to point B requires micro, unless you want your HT to lag behind in a clumped group..
If you 1A at a Terran army, here's what happens:
Zealots attack the bio ball, which kites them back. Bio/Chargelots move faster than the Colossus.. so the Colossus can't keep up and end up shooting at nothing while getting hit by Vikings. Templar lag behind in a nice little bunch and get EMPd. After EMP on HT goes down and Colossus are dead, Terran actually boxes their units, presses T, and 1As in the opposite direction.
So what you actually need to do as a protoss is:
-Pull Zealots back whenever they get too far ahead
-Focus fire the Stalkers on the Vikings but keep them somewhat back so they do't die to bio
-Make sure your Colossus are actually shooting at things instead of walking around doing nothing
-Spread out your Templar and try to feedback ghosts, get good storms in
In addition, you need to be aware of where all your observers are and pull them back whenever Terran scans. A couple of cloaked ghosts landing crucial EMPs can ruin your day.
Protoss "micro" is hard to identify, but it's certainly there. Just getting your units to do what they're supposed to do is tricky. Maybe right click, H, right click, H, right click H is more sexy.. but there is no denying that a Protoss army requires a significant amount of micro against anyone who knows what they're doing.
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings. If you can get good EMPs you flat out win.
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@DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
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On March 05 2014 00:16 DinoMight wrote:
The myth that Protoss units don't need to be microed is one of the most hilarious things I read on this forum. From reading the comments here it sounds like all you have to do is turtle behind a mothership core until you have storm and Colossus and then literally press F2, A on the opposite corner of the map, grab some pop-corn sit back and relax while you win.
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings. If you can get good EMPs you flat out win.
So you are a Protoss player who concider placing Zealots infront of your Immortals as difficult, but when you play Terran as long as you survive the allins you have no problems at all to massacre a tier3 Protoss Army?
Sounds like you either are talking a lot of BS or suffer from a Schizoaffective disorder 
(and please dont take it all to seriously)
Its like you tell how life is on Mars when you spent your whole life on Venus.
Come on, we have seen the best Terrans in the world struggle in Lategame TvP 200/200 fully upgrades fights since the release of WoL. Its not like a super secret Protoss is very strong when they get there. And I dont think anyone mind. The problem being is that Protoss now gets there extremly fast and the window where Terran used to be extremly strong (the midgame, 9-15 minutes) is shortned extremly. Sometimes to just a few seconds, sometimes the window just does not excist depending on how the openings collides.
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On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote:@DinoMight Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss. Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1 Try to achieve this with the other races
You can just be like bad habit and get to GM by 6 pooling in every match up.
The argument that the game is imbalanced at "my skill level" is just a balance whine with alittle spin on it. It's still whining the game is unfair for you, but not for people that are better then you.
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On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote:@DinoMight Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss. Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1 Try to achieve this with the other races
Most of the people's assumption that Protoss doesnt require micro is because most ppl here are mostly diamond and below, where Protoss can just a move. However, they dont see the highest level of Protoss play require as much micro as Terran. Dinomight outlines most of the points.
Moving zealot in front of immortals can be very easy but doing all those things at once while macroing and warping in haress etc aint a walk in the park.
There is no denying protoss is easy race at low levels.
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1) By the 4 minute mark we already have 6 spells to keep track of. By the end of the game in a standard PvT it's up to 9 spells/abilities (and that's just on the most commonly used units). Compare that to Stim, cloak, EMP, and scan (4).
Please. By 4 minuts your MSC is barely out and it has no energy to cast any spell. Even if you make a Sentry as one of your first units—yes, at some point you will be able, if you want, to cast one of the 6 spells your Sentry + MSC have; but so what? Is Orbital macro management hard by 3'30 because we have the choice between MULE, Scan and Supply Call? Not at all. You call your MULE and that's that. Just because you have numerous possibilities doesn't mean there is difficulty. You actually don't have any decision to do with your spells until the first Terran poke or your Hallucination scout. Your "6 spells to keep track of" is completely routinized in optimal uses.
I have no idea why you're talking about 9 spells/abilities in lategame TvP. There are usually 3, Blink, Feedback, Storm and possibly a fourth with Time Warp if the MSC is there (and even then it's frequently cast before the battle). There are usually no Sentries left in lategame TvP.
At any rate, counting spells/abilities in each side tells absolutely nothing about the difficulty to handle each side. Stimming, for instance, is an active ability but it's trivial. There is no difficulty in doing the "stim" action. EMP and Storm are both AoE targetable spells with the same radius, yet the difficulty isn't the same because the stakes are not the same, the amount of tasks required meanwhile isn't the same and the respective spellcasters don't have the same opposition (= adverse units preventing them from casting their spells).
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
Pre-positioning isn't as hard as microing in battle, especially with the stupid rhythm of SC2 battles which end in a matter of seconds. And even if your pre-positioning isn't perfect, you still have help from your units: Colossi hover over the other units, which means they can only get in the way between themselves, and Blink allows you to immediately reposition your Stalkers if they're not where they should be. Charge also makes sure your Zealots will always be in front.
3) We also have vastly different move speeds, from Stalkers who are fairly fast to Templar.. basically the slowest units besides queens off creep. Just getting our army to move from point A to point B requires micro, unless you want your HT to lag behind in a clumped group..
Actually, outside of Templars, the speed at which Protoss units move is fairly homogeneous: Colossi 2.25, Zealots with Charge 2.75, Archons 2.81, Stalkers 2.95. For Templars, you wait them and that's all; or you put them in a Prism if you want to keep up with your army. Splitting them is another action independent of their slow speed (the clumping is not caused by their movement speed).
So what you actually need to do as a protoss is:
-Pull Zealots back whenever they get too far ahead
-Focus fire the Stalkers on the Vikings but keep them somewhat back so they do't die to bio
-Make sure your Colossus are actually shooting at things instead of walking around doing nothing
-Spread out your Templar and try to feedback ghosts, get good storms in
Pulling back troops (Zealots or not) is a simple right click. Blink allows Stalkers to auto-position themselves in range of the Vikings; and depending on the amount of Stalkers you have, you're better not focusing fire (because of overkill issues; plus if the bio is moving away from Zealots, Vikings are the only targets left; focus fire is only mandatory if the Stalkers may choose other targets). Colossi, like Archons and Zealots (i. e. 80% of your units), are a-click units; there is no in-battle micro to do with them as long as their attack move allows them to follow the course of the fight. Templar micro is the only difficult part, but thankfully the rest is automated or semi-automated so you can completely focus on that. Check the point of view of any top Korean Protoss on available PvT replays and you will see that: they focus mainly on Templars (Storms), secondary on Stalkers, and the rest (Zealots, Archons, Colossi, possibly Immortals and/or Tempests) is on autopilot; they only control those units for retreating purposes, because what in-battle micro would they do with them anyway?
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings.
Have fun sniping Observers when they follow Colossi.
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On March 05 2014 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote:@DinoMight Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss. Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1 Try to achieve this with the other races You can just be like bad habit and get to GM by 6 pooling in every match up. The argument that the game is imbalanced at "my skill level" is just a balance whine with alittle spin on it. It's still whining the game is unfair for you, but not for people that are better then you.
There are many roads to GM.
Gaulzi cannon rushed his way to high Masters and was beating GMs pretty regulary. Another guy 6 pooled (like Plansix said) to GM.
"The game is imba at my level" does not mean the game is imba. It means you need to up your level and practice more.
And I have a few Diamond Terran friends who can absolutely PUNISH a Protoss for not microing. It's not a Masters+ thing only. Hell, even I can offrace on my main account and beat Protoss players of my MMR if they don't micro.
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On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote:@DinoMight Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss. Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1 Try to achieve this with the other races
Hahaha what an awesome post, "hakuna matata mode" xDDD I can tell you that 60 APM A+forward terran army doesn´t work, medibacks tends to arrive before the main army :D.
@DinoMight
I think you are missundertanding "keep track of" and "avaible". At min 4 mark you only need to keep track of chronoboost while you know that you have other 3 spells avaible for puntual situations. At that time, T and Z have their own spell to macro and to "keep track of".
Anyways, even at high levels, P needs less micro than the other races (and I mean a bit less, no "0" micror A+move), kepp in mind that a T and Z army can dissapear in a cople of seconds in a storm or a HSM.
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On March 05 2014 01:36 covetousrat wrote:
There is no denying protoss is easy race at low levels.
What is considered "low level"?
I never feel comfortable playing TvP lategame. Never ever. But when I play PvT lategame I feel better the longer the game lasts.
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TheDwf is going to tell you what is up and that his race is harder. Because that's not a subjective at all, what people find difficult about a game.
I love these discussions so much. It's like compairing which role is harder in dota 2 or league. Or objective trying to determine which position is harder in hockey, goalie or a forward.
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@TheDwf
The point is that there are many things you need to do as a Protoss players. Sure, Terrans may micro their bio more intensely than Protoss does any ONE unit, but as a whole there is a lot of micro going on for both players.
Honestly I don't think that right click H right click H right click H is that hard... the hardest part of the engagement is landing good EMPs and getting your Vikings to attack from a good angle. So those are the two things to focus on. For Protoss, the most important two things are getting the Storms/Feedbacks in and making sure the Colossus aren't just getting shot at from dead airspace and not attacking. The other stuff is pretty routine for both sides.
So many people stress the importance of the stutter step but honestly if you negate Protoss's AoE the engagement becomes really easy...
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On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote:@DinoMight Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss. Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1 Try to achieve this with the other races
I hit high Diamond with Zerg in Wings of Liberty doing exactly that. I probably could do it with Zerg in HOTS too. It isn't that hard. Heck, in WOL I did it with only roaches in PvZ and roach/ling/bane all-in in ZvT. ZvZ I just speedling all-inned. You can get to high Diamond easily just massing units with Zerg (or really any race) as long as your spend your money right and keep up with macro. If your opponent's macro is bad, it doesn't matter what race you play because you will simply have more stuff than them. That's why most people who can hit high Master with one race can usually hit Master with another fairly quickly. Being able to spend your resources is a universal skill that applies to all races and once you have it down you can usually do well with any race. It's why back in the day (I'm sure he still does) Day9 always emphasized spending your money over everything else.
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On March 05 2014 01:51 DinoMight wrote:
@TheDwf
The point is that there are many things you need to do as a Protoss players. Sure, Terrans may micro their bio more intensely than Protoss does any ONE unit, but as a whole there is a lot of micro going on for both players.
Honestly I don't think that right click H right click H right click H is that hard... the hardest part of the engagement is landing good EMPs and getting your Vikings to attack from a good angle. So those are the two things to focus on. For Protoss, the most important two things are getting the Storms/Feedbacks in and making sure the Colossus aren't just getting shot at from dead airspace and not attacking. The other stuff is pretty routine for both sides.
So many people stress the importance of the stutter step but honestly if you negate Protoss's AoE the engagement becomes really easy...
Hit & run is not hard per se, but what makes Terran micro difficult with bio/Ghosts/Vikings engagements is that there are other mandatory tasks to perform meanwhile; plus Terran units follow the "glass cannon" model, so you're punished harder for mistakes with fragile units than with beefy ones.
Yes, you can sometimes comfortably a-click if Protoss has no more Storms, but that happens very rarely at high level since Protoss, aware of this, always have Templars in the back waiting for you to push too eagerly to land that money Storm.
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As a top 16 GM terran and top 50 GM toss player, I feel that protoss overall is a lot easier to play but terran has a higher skill ceiling for example, if two players practice an hour a day, one being terran and one being toss, the toss would win. It is like this until you get to about 6-8 hours a day, then they will trade games often (assuming they started at even skill and intelligence). Terran is just way harder to play mechanically and even at times more difficult strategically unless you have godlike mechanics and micro which only come with large amounts of practice. At the end point it is relativiely balanced now (top korean level). This is why we dont see any foreign terrans win anything as almost every single one does not have the time/dedication to reach godlike mechanics that are required to win at the highest level of play. With protoss (and zerg to some extent) you essentially just learn how to scout and execute a strategy and will quickly rise and skill, but after that practice is less efficent as there are less things to do, unlike terran.
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Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
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On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote:
Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
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8748 Posts
On March 04 2014 11:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote:
Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive. And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Uhh, yeah, obviously. Zealots and stalkers without blink are boring and basic units. Warpgate rushes that used sentries were somewhat interesting, but often too early in the game to be very complex. The variety of ways you deal with blink/dt/oracle are much more interesting than dealing with a warpgate rush. And the variety of ways the protoss player controls blink/dt/oracle and executes the builds are much more interesting as well. Clearly we see the game very very differently if you don't think having the option between 3+ builds all involving very different units is better than doing the same rush over and over again with the same basic units. I can't even fathom why you'd have to ask or even consider if making things simpler and more predictable in every way possible is better for a strategy game.
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On March 04 2014 02:26 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 01:42 Jerom wrote:On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote:
It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units. how is that odd? what is odd is that the collosus does no friendly splash damage.
That's because the Colossus is in the motherfucking SKY. Like this is a towering...Colossus...He's so far up there he can shoot down at an angle that directly hits enemy units, and slices left to right. I mean... the Colossus is so large that... well units that attack only AIR can hit it.
Edit: http://i3.minus.com/i1ws3QTL9uP81.jpg Hypothetical Source. It's a GAME... it can make sense in the physical world or you're meta balance world...
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EPT
