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4713 Posts
On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face.
It took you this long? I basically foresaw this ever since Lucifron vs Goswser.
I've had enough turtle mech, SH and skytoss to last me 10 lifetimes.
Now lets think of ways to make the game more dynamic and less turtly for all races.
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On February 10 2014 23:58 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:32 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On February 10 2014 23:27 ZAiNs wrote:On February 10 2014 23:25 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 23:19 Xiphias wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week. oh .. good good  .. it would be nice to know the feedback of KR pros about it. Both BW and sc2 KR pros. Koreans aren't gonna waste their time playing it lol. Of course not. I mean, it's not like some of them already do...lol Just some Axiom players because TB wanted some content for Youtube.
Don't bullshit about that, the players liked it a lot and only then did TB decide to take a look at it and do something a little more interesting (like a mini-tournament) with it.
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I Broodwar Siege Tanks are kind of extreme units, when you consider it's huge range.
But then in SC2 there's also Tempest with 15 range and Swarm Host with even further range. Just makes the dead zone so much bigger, when there's 20 range between the two armies, it rly does make sense that we have prolonged turtle games.
When you have extreme units, you get extreme situations.
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Is there an extension mod for the SC2BW/Starbow economy? How would SC2 play out with worker wandering, assuming no balance changes for the moment? Is that not the solution being suggested in the OP?
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On February 10 2014 23:58 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face. The dark future is already here and it's called swarm hosts.
There are way more issues in this game than swarm hosts. Enough Ravens making terran armies literally unkillable (with ranged units) is equally dumb.
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Most of Blizzard's new units are horrible. It's not just swarm hosts.
Broodlords pretty much ruined WoL, but nobody makes them anymore because they have SH. Ravens have been stupid for ages, it's just that you have to play the kind of style mentioned in the OP to afford them (ie: boring as hell). Ghosts are only useful in one M/U or against shit opponents with poor map awareness ever since the massive nerf to snipe + emp (which was to counter an obvious deficiency in zerg where they had no real counter to ghosts - gg Blizz). Widow-mines are shit. Hellbats are shit now, and their circular AoE should have been easy to foresee as a problem when combined with medivacs. Mothership is a hero unit - nuff said - this isn't Warcraft 3 or a MOBA. Let's not forget about the glitch ultralisks that ruined a GSL semi-final.
Starbow may be the answer, but let's see how much of a fuck Blizzard gives about this game once people stop laddering altogether. Knowing them, they'll probably make some shameless copy of the mod, call it Starcraft 3 and make a couple more million dollars off of the last few delusional fans who actually expect quality out of Blizzard.
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On February 10 2014 23:58 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face. The dark future is already here and it's called swarm hosts.
Raven/Viking/tank is just as dark. Just blobed up flying units that alpha strike any unit that comes near. It's has horrible and dull.
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:58 DooMDash wrote:On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face. The dark future is already here and it's called swarm hosts. Raven/Viking/tank is just as dark. Just blobed up flying units that alpha strike any unit that comes near. It's has horrible and dull.
Lets just agree that any turtle style, regardless of which race is doing it, is boring, dull and uninteresting.
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On February 10 2014 22:35 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:07 bo1b wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. How can you be so unbelievably biased as to believe that building pfs turrets ravens and vikings then sitting in your base for 1.5 hours before moving out, losing half your army and then still having an army zerg can't beat is a strat worthy of winning? That strat is fucking stupid, sh are the only way zerg has a chance, and that map is awful. The combined apm in that game must have been like 150. Why do you think that happens? Oh right, it's because you can't actually leave your base or you die to everything the zerg has. You're forced to turtle with mech it it gets past a certain part in the game or if you have the map advantage since zerg has such a strong lategame vs mech. Much like in BW mech should be a powerful army that either needs to be stopped before it gets too big, or get shut down by sending multiple waves of units after using your insane map control against it. It shouldn't be completely screwed because everything the zerg has makes it impossible to move out of your own base. Infact, it was that reason that stopped me playing and watching (unless it's SKT rarely) SC2 all together months ago.
Did we watch the same game? Reality had absolutely no intention of going anywhere till he got full upgrades, 5 turtled up bases and 200 army supply of ultimate, unbeatable Terran composition.
Or are you telling me that suddenly Zerg is the race that forces other races into particular unit compositions? Oh, right. Must be why all the Terrans used to play bio in TvZ. They had to adapt to Zerg going Ling / Bling / Muta. /sarcasm
Go look up SK vs. Innovation or Maru vs. SK and you'll see that meching Terran is more than capable of applying pressure vs. Zerg.
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I feel like the underlying problem is simply the supply cap. You very rarely get to the 200 cap in BW because you don't need as much workers and units in general cost less supply than in sc2. This means that a turtling player will almost never get to overcome the huge supply advantage that an expanding player has, no matter how awesome their late game unit composition is. I would like to see what happens when the cap gets raised to 300/400 for example, bet everything will change drastically then.
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Yep, supply cap. With everyone hitting 200 supply really early every game strategy gets wonky. Traditionally you'd think, enemy expands, I attack. Enemy attacks, I defend. Enemy defends, I expand. Except that last one goes sideways once you hit supply cap.
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On February 11 2014 00:35 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:35 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2014 22:07 bo1b wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. How can you be so unbelievably biased as to believe that building pfs turrets ravens and vikings then sitting in your base for 1.5 hours before moving out, losing half your army and then still having an army zerg can't beat is a strat worthy of winning? That strat is fucking stupid, sh are the only way zerg has a chance, and that map is awful. The combined apm in that game must have been like 150. Why do you think that happens? Oh right, it's because you can't actually leave your base or you die to everything the zerg has. You're forced to turtle with mech it it gets past a certain part in the game or if you have the map advantage since zerg has such a strong lategame vs mech. Much like in BW mech should be a powerful army that either needs to be stopped before it gets too big, or get shut down by sending multiple waves of units after using your insane map control against it. It shouldn't be completely screwed because everything the zerg has makes it impossible to move out of your own base. Infact, it was that reason that stopped me playing and watching (unless it's SKT rarely) SC2 all together months ago. Did we watch the same game? Reality had absolutely no intention of going anywhere till he got full upgrades, 5 turtled up bases and 200 army supply of ultimate, unbeatable Terran composition. Or are you telling me that suddenly Zerg is the race that forces other races into particular unit compositions? Oh, right. Must be why all the Terrans used to play bio in TvZ. They had to adapt to Zerg going Ling / Bling / Muta. /sarcasm Go look up SK vs. Innovation or Maru vs. SK and you'll see that meching Terran is more than capable of applying pressure vs. Zerg.
And Inno and Maru did well vs Soulkey, right? Zergs can also try to bust a turtling Terran like Soulkey did in the re-match. It is just much more risky.
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On February 11 2014 00:54 DooMDash wrote:
How do we fix it pros?
A single match is proleague that went full retard? What and see of it happens again?
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Mech just dies to everything Zerg has before mass ravens if T doesn't get a huge economic advantage in the beginning. Almost all Z go into SH when they see mech, regardless if the T is going to turtle or not. If they do not and the mech player tries to move out, you get crushed by vipers clouding the entire army or Mutalisks destroying all the bases.
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I don't understand why so many people are against "turtle" play. I think it is quite inreresting to watch, when the players split the map, mine most of it out and then have to think twice about losing every single unit. Maybe it is not fast, shiny and full of explosions, but for me, the "standard" SC2 game is unnecessarrily fast and a lot of detail is lost by simplt not having enough time to watch everything.
The only flaw I see in "turtle" play at the moment is that most of the players haven't studied these situations enough and aren't mentally prepared to deal with them. I don't want to watch 30 minutes of macro with only light harassement into one of the players headbutting into a bad position and losing because he can't be bothered to play for longer, but I surely am willing to watch 30 minutes of macro for an hour of late game dance.
And if neither player ever attacks, that's a fair game too and that's why we have the tie for. The SC2 stalemate detection is probably too slow for that, but I don't see any reason why players couldn't be allowed to mutually agree to a tie using chat. It's just another strategic element to judge whether it is advantageous for them or not.
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Canada13389 Posts
I thought you used to have the opinion there were too fee space controlling units?
Though I do agree split map is different in sc2 because both sides alvery have very cost effective defensive armies. In the late game its hard to break your opponent in a defensive position. But other than in very rare split map scenarios the attacker can sometimes take a good trade and deny some econ then rebuild and keep an advantage.
This is before the ultra cost effective death army is made though.
I think a lot of people in this thread are jumping to too many conclusions about the game and instead of discussions we are having a flame fest in here.
I feel like the reach and space control of some units like the tempest and swarm host contribute to a turtley play style. I mean Tempests are really weak vs non massive units and are bad without a lot of static defenseman but that was figured out long ago.
Hosts have yet to be figured out. I'm not sure if it will be in time or not though.
The biggest issue for me is the fact that three to 4 base transitions are so late in the game that you already have a very powerful army when you take that 4th for the additional gas to solidify that super late army transition. I think if we saw earlier 4/5 bases being taken with a tangible impact on army size we would see less turtle play since the 4th or 5th would need to be defended by a smaller army. Not sure if this will figure itself out or not. I remember when nats were hard to secure and timings on the third from 2 base were more effective. I think ATM players are taking late 4ths with big armies making trading that army mean the end of game so they turtle.
It might be just a lack of understanding on how to take the 4th without dying or to punish a 4th without going all in that is hurt I g us ATM as well. Though turtley cost effective armies don't help its possible the same understanding concerns that impacted early sc2 is happening again.
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Northern Ireland25970 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:56 Plansix wrote:A single match is proleague that went full retard? What and see of it happens again?
It's happening more and more, PvZ too. Shost has been pretty bad since beta anyway, either proxies with nydus/Queen or this turtling malarky
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On February 11 2014 01:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 00:56 Plansix wrote:On February 11 2014 00:54 DooMDash wrote:
How do we fix it pros? A single match is proleague that went full retard? What and see of it happens again? It's happening more and more, PvZ too. Shost has been pretty bad since beta anyway, either proxies with nydus/Queen or this turtling malarky
If we get another game where both sides mine out in the next two weeks, I might think something needs looking at. But a shift in the meta to more passive styles does not mean it will stay that way forever.
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On February 10 2014 22:08 labbe wrote:Morrow, switch to starbow
Even though it is unlikely, this is probably the most realistic solution.
Assuming Blizzard will solve this issue is ignorant. They tried to solve it with HOTS, eliminating turtling that was a stated objective of theirs, but of course they manage to make the problem worse because the game designers don't understand the game. Remember how David Kim said they designed the Swarmhost to allow for Zerg to be aggressive in the mid-game? Look how that turned out.
Time and again Blizzard has shown an inability to fix problems with SC2.
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