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On February 10 2014 22:25 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:21 DooMDash wrote:
Remove swarm hosts, give Zerg 30 unit higher supply cap. Still swarmy, and more powerful late game. So 230/230 12min roach push? No, thanks.
Hive tech research for more food.
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On February 10 2014 23:08 labbe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:03 Noocta wrote:On February 10 2014 22:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 10 2014 22:43 Noocta wrote:
I don't really know how much shit people need to endure to finally accept that SC2 isn't a really good competitive game.
It drives from player stories and got its start from the Starcraft Brood war reputation. I'm feeling kinda sorry for Blizzard to be honest, because while they finally wised up and started taking more feedback and taking it more seriously, the changes that they're considering and employing are still far too limited and narrow in scope and focus, and while it's fantastic that they're finally giving things more time and more carefully examining the issues, at the end of the day some small tweaks in terms of a couple of units' spell cost, hitpoints, damage bonus or build time will not change anything in the long run, when the problems seem to be deeply rooted in the core game mechanics. Honestly, I was gonna say that the fact that the game "drives from player stories" isn't a bad thing, considering many of these stories are created in game (from the in-game chat we used to see at some early MLG events, to even players' specific playstyles and the way they influence strategies and the meta), but then again I am reminded how many people seem to only care for the out-of-game drama rather than any facet of the game itself. Blizzard is a fossil. It's way too big to be the reactive power it needs to be, and the people in charge are way too scared of consequences if they fuck up. David Kim isn't a lead designer at this point, he's a fucking statistician that doesn't want to shake anything up in case numbers starts to look wrong in his monthly report to Bobby Kottik. This. People need to realize that the Blizzard of today is not the same company that made Brood war, Diablo II and Warcraft III. The Blizzard of today is the trainwreck company that made Battle.net "2.0", Diablo III, and Heart of the swarm. Blizzard will not save Starcraft. The only way to get the Starcraft that we, the community wants, is to make it ourselves. I personally believe that Starbow can be just that, the community taking Starcraft into it's own hands.
Lol, yeah. "the community". Where has the community been in the last 2years of Starbow? The community doesn't take anything in their hands, because the community in general is clueless, lazy and whiny. Compared to how much bullshit has been suggested - no sorry - demanded by "the community", blizzard is really acing it with SC2.
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On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea
Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week.
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On February 10 2014 23:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:08 labbe wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 Noocta wrote:On February 10 2014 22:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 10 2014 22:43 Noocta wrote:
I don't really know how much shit people need to endure to finally accept that SC2 isn't a really good competitive game.
It drives from player stories and got its start from the Starcraft Brood war reputation. I'm feeling kinda sorry for Blizzard to be honest, because while they finally wised up and started taking more feedback and taking it more seriously, the changes that they're considering and employing are still far too limited and narrow in scope and focus, and while it's fantastic that they're finally giving things more time and more carefully examining the issues, at the end of the day some small tweaks in terms of a couple of units' spell cost, hitpoints, damage bonus or build time will not change anything in the long run, when the problems seem to be deeply rooted in the core game mechanics. Honestly, I was gonna say that the fact that the game "drives from player stories" isn't a bad thing, considering many of these stories are created in game (from the in-game chat we used to see at some early MLG events, to even players' specific playstyles and the way they influence strategies and the meta), but then again I am reminded how many people seem to only care for the out-of-game drama rather than any facet of the game itself. Blizzard is a fossil. It's way too big to be the reactive power it needs to be, and the people in charge are way too scared of consequences if they fuck up. David Kim isn't a lead designer at this point, he's a fucking statistician that doesn't want to shake anything up in case numbers starts to look wrong in his monthly report to Bobby Kottik. This. People need to realize that the Blizzard of today is not the same company that made Brood war, Diablo II and Warcraft III. The Blizzard of today is the trainwreck company that made Battle.net "2.0", Diablo III, and Heart of the swarm. Blizzard will not save Starcraft. The only way to get the Starcraft that we, the community wants, is to make it ourselves. I personally believe that Starbow can be just that, the community taking Starcraft into it's own hands. Lol, yeah. "the community". Where has the community been in the last 2years of Starbow? The community doesn't take anything in their hands, because the community in general is clueless, lazy and whiny. Compared to how much bullshit has been suggested - no sorry - demanded by "the community", blizzard is really acing it with SC2.
But the community is really good posting on websites with hyperbolic comments for based on a single proleague game that went full retard.
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On February 10 2014 23:19 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week.
oh .. good good  .. it would be nice to know the feedback of KR pros about it. Both BW and sc2 KR pros.
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On February 10 2014 23:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:08 labbe wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 Noocta wrote:On February 10 2014 22:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On February 10 2014 22:43 Noocta wrote:
I don't really know how much shit people need to endure to finally accept that SC2 isn't a really good competitive game.
It drives from player stories and got its start from the Starcraft Brood war reputation. I'm feeling kinda sorry for Blizzard to be honest, because while they finally wised up and started taking more feedback and taking it more seriously, the changes that they're considering and employing are still far too limited and narrow in scope and focus, and while it's fantastic that they're finally giving things more time and more carefully examining the issues, at the end of the day some small tweaks in terms of a couple of units' spell cost, hitpoints, damage bonus or build time will not change anything in the long run, when the problems seem to be deeply rooted in the core game mechanics. Honestly, I was gonna say that the fact that the game "drives from player stories" isn't a bad thing, considering many of these stories are created in game (from the in-game chat we used to see at some early MLG events, to even players' specific playstyles and the way they influence strategies and the meta), but then again I am reminded how many people seem to only care for the out-of-game drama rather than any facet of the game itself. Blizzard is a fossil. It's way too big to be the reactive power it needs to be, and the people in charge are way too scared of consequences if they fuck up. David Kim isn't a lead designer at this point, he's a fucking statistician that doesn't want to shake anything up in case numbers starts to look wrong in his monthly report to Bobby Kottik. This. People need to realize that the Blizzard of today is not the same company that made Brood war, Diablo II and Warcraft III. The Blizzard of today is the trainwreck company that made Battle.net "2.0", Diablo III, and Heart of the swarm. Blizzard will not save Starcraft. The only way to get the Starcraft that we, the community wants, is to make it ourselves. I personally believe that Starbow can be just that, the community taking Starcraft into it's own hands. Lol, yeah. "the community". Where has the community been in the last 2years of Starbow? The community doesn't take anything in their hands, because the community in general is clueless, lazy and whiny. Compared to how much bullshit has been suggested - no sorry - demanded by "the community", blizzard is really acing it with SC2.
"The community" is not one entity with one will. There are very talented and passionate people in here, that know that SC2 is not the game that they wanted. Starbow, and other mods such as OneGoal and SC2BW is the result of this, and I admire the developers for all their hard work. It might take a bit of time, but I believe that people in time will choose the better game. SC2 is not that game IMO.
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On February 10 2014 23:25 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:19 Xiphias wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week. oh .. good good .. it would be nice to know the feedback of KR pros about it. Both BW and sc2 KR pros.
Koreans aren't gonna waste their time playing it lol.
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On February 10 2014 22:14 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:07 bo1b wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. How can you be so unbelievably biased as to believe that building pfs turrets ravens and vikings then sitting in your base for 1.5 hours before moving out, losing half your army and then still having an army zerg can't beat is a strat worthy of winning? That strat is fucking stupid, sh are the only way zerg has a chance, and that map is awful. The combined apm in that game must have been like 150. Think the other way round. Maybe the way Terran is forced to play like this is bcuz of the SH itself. U just cannot move out unless u have 10+ Ravens. I bet no Terran wants to play like this. Turtle 1,5h or move out earlier and get smashed in most of the games.
reality will always play turtle mech, whether there is swarmhost or not.
you can move against swarmhost style, you can leapfrog with raven pdd and enough tanks.
it's just reality prefer sitting back to get that huge sky terran out.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 10 2014 23:27 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:25 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 23:19 Xiphias wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week. oh .. good good .. it would be nice to know the feedback of KR pros about it. Both BW and sc2 KR pros. Koreans aren't gonna waste their time playing it lol.
Of course not. I mean, it's not like some of them already do...lol
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On February 10 2014 23:29 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:14 Phaenoman wrote:On February 10 2014 22:07 bo1b wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. How can you be so unbelievably biased as to believe that building pfs turrets ravens and vikings then sitting in your base for 1.5 hours before moving out, losing half your army and then still having an army zerg can't beat is a strat worthy of winning? That strat is fucking stupid, sh are the only way zerg has a chance, and that map is awful. The combined apm in that game must have been like 150. Think the other way round. Maybe the way Terran is forced to play like this is bcuz of the SH itself. U just cannot move out unless u have 10+ Ravens. I bet no Terran wants to play like this. Turtle 1,5h or move out earlier and get smashed in most of the games. reality will always play turtle mech, whether there is swarmhost or not. you can move against swarmhost style, you can leapfrog with raven pdd and enough tanks. it's just reality prefer sitting back to get that huge sky terran out.
exactly. Think about the Reality vs Hydra game. Hydra didn't make swarm hosts, Reality played exactly like that. And he actually knew that Hydra didn't have SHs, because he saw the large Roach/Hydra army and thus knew that there was no supply left for other units. So he could have done something else, like move out and attack. Didn't matter. Played the exact same turtle style, and it was quite a slaughter. Because it is a very strong way to play regardless, hell, it is even better when the opponent is not constantly throwing locusts at you, since you will reach an even stronger army even sooner.
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Well thats pretty much Morrow is saying... Why would you when you have a higher chance of dying if you push out.... Yea it can be done but you could sustain massive losses because of 1 false step where as if you just defend then youhave the higher chance of doing the same to your opponent giving them massive losses without so much as a dent in your army....
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Don't really want to quote any post in particular, but Blizzard will never allow Starbow to "replace" SC2, even if it were a hundred times better (I don't know, I haven't played it).
Secondly, there are some design problems with SC2 that have been talked over to death, but I don't agree with people that claim that the units are not the problem. The swarmhost is a horrible unit idea. I'm (was) a Zerg player, and swarmhosts are basically the reason I never liked HotS and ultimately stopped playing. In fact, when the unit was first announced, I remember talking to friends about how horrible it was and hoping it would get scrapped. Sure enough, fast forward a year, and swarmhosts are literally ruining this game (the little awesomeness is had left). They are unfortunately not alone, but it's all been said a million times.
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After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face.
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On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face.
Idk man, I'd figure if Blizzard buffs tanks too much we'd just see some crazy new marine tank timing push that's almost impossible to stop, before we get to see hour long turtle games.
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On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face.
Some people like them though
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On February 10 2014 23:32 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:27 ZAiNs wrote:On February 10 2014 23:25 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 23:19 Xiphias wrote:On February 10 2014 23:03 goody153 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:51 bokchoi wrote:
let's just drop hots and play starbow competitively i'm curious. How is the popularity of starbow their S. Korea ? do pro players try the game ? or have BW stars tried the game yet ? never heard any news or opinions about starbow from S. Korea Starbow is currently not up on KR server. Translation is soon complete and it should be up by the end of this week. oh .. good good .. it would be nice to know the feedback of KR pros about it. Both BW and sc2 KR pros. Koreans aren't gonna waste their time playing it lol. Of course not. I mean, it's not like some of them already do...lol
Just some Axiom players because TB wanted some content for Youtube. There's no way Kespa teams are going to be playing Starbow.
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On February 10 2014 23:45 Plansix wrote:
After that game, I have seen the dark future that we would face if Blizzard buffed tanks to much. Turret rings and Viking blobs. It's a future I am not willing to face.
The dark future is already here and it's called swarm hosts.
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Sc2 need an overhaul. It's problems run deep.
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I think it is still to early to call how these end game split map situations play out. I just saw that game between SK and Reality and they both seemed to be lost after a certain point in the game. They simply didn't know what to do. Both still hat options. In the end I think Reality should have won that game. He just didn't have enough experience in this situation to play it out. It seemed like he didn't really use his energy units most efficiently.
Soulkey on the other hand also really didn't use the full potential of his army. When there are a lot of point defense drones out he should have started to micro his locusts to kill just a little bit more. (Split, time the move in right, move command to cause splash damage on terran units).
I was also quite surprised how well a few zerglings traded if they were sent in with locusts as a buffer. I can also imagine that zerg could do a bit more with other "swimming on the locust wave" tactics.
The situation really seems to be unexplored and nobody wants to attack or loose such long games because of stupid mistakes. I can imagine that once the koreans figure out the right unit comps and tactics one side might have the edge in such passive games. After a certain point this game seemed like early WOL with both players having no idea what the next step is or how to use the unit they have most effectively.
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EPT
