|
On February 11 2014 01:29 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 22:07 bo1b wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. How can you be so unbelievably biased as to believe that building pfs turrets ravens and vikings then sitting in your base for 1.5 hours before moving out, losing half your army and then still having an army zerg can't beat is a strat worthy of winning? That strat is fucking stupid, sh are the only way zerg has a chance, and that map is awful. The combined apm in that game must have been like 150. Because having one race designed to turtle and another designed to swarm all over the map was awesome to watch and I would love to see it back. <3 But I agree with Morrow, Raven and Planetaries are too much turtling power while no race ever has incentive to spread out because the economy is maxed out at three bases already.
Raven and planetaries do have turtling power. But as you can see in the Soulkey Reality game, it is just enough to hold off the SH. So removing the turtling power would mean Soulkey's SH just breaks through after 5 minutes of constant rallying. One of the big issues is that you just can't really move forward on the ground against SH once they hit a certain number until you have full upgraded mech with air support.
I think banshees is a solution to SH but then you need air support so you just end up with an air Terran death ball.
|
On February 11 2014 01:36 S1eth wrote:
You have completely misunderstood what DK said.
Maybe I did.
But tell me, what happened to the problem of Zerg not having aggressive options in the midgame? Because that is the reason that Swarmhost exists.
If the problem never existed, then the Swarmhost was made for no reason. And what does that say about the design team?
|
On February 11 2014 01:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:18 Ravomat wrote:On February 11 2014 01:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 10 2014 22:08 labbe wrote:Morrow, switch to starbow  Even though it is unlikely, this is probably the most realistic solution. Assuming Blizzard will solve this issue is ignorant. They tried to solve it with HOTS, eliminating turtling that was a stated objective of theirs, but of course they manage to make the problem worse because the game designers don't understand the game. Remember how David Kim said they designed the Swarmhost to allow for Zerg to be aggressive in the mid-game? Look how that turned out. Time and again Blizzard has shown an inability to fix problems with SC2. According to DKs AMA recently they aren't unable they are unwilling. They like how it is. He made a critical logical error in his argument and I pointed it out. On February 06 2014 07:20 Pandain wrote:
Do you believe that the swarm host is proving to be used in the way that you wanted it to when you designed the unit for HotS? Do you like the way the swarm host is currently being used by pros? David Kim wrote:
The first question in our minds don't matter as much at this point.
He set out to fix a problem that he identified (Zerg not having aggressive options in the mid game). As we know, he failed. And now he says the problem doesn't matter? What happened to the problem of Zerg having issues being aggressive in the mid game? And why did he try to fix it in the first place!? By ignoring Pandain's question, he basically said the initial problem never existed. And what does that say about him? If the problem did not exist, why did he create the Swarm Host? Because he did think the problem existed, but he was wrong, and is unwilling to admit it. It proves he is unable to correctly identify problems in the game. It isn't that they are unwilling to fix them. They try to "fix" an issue, fail, and then forget about fixing said problem, because they realize the issue actually wasn't a problem in the first place. And we are left the the "results" (ie Swarmhost) which they then try to somehow fit into the game. And often the "results" overlap with existing units , ie Tempests. Remember Tempests solving the non-existent Muta problem in WOL? Yeah, me too. Now Tempests are just a replacement for the Carrier, performing nearly the same role (long range capital ship).Frankly, I'm not sure what is worse: Blizzard's inability to identify real problems with the game, or their inability to implement in the game what they had planned to implement. The Swarm Host is evidence of failure on both fronts. And it is why we are left with a unit that makes the game worse. Let's not even get started with other units like the Warhound. Mass Muta was a problem back in WoL. Tempest was introduced as a unit that is to counter mass muta once it reach critical number in the unit reveal panel, but they have changed it since the beta into a long range siege unit to focus on counting air massive unit The reason is because they went for a different direction on how to deal with mass muta, a buff to phoenix default range. This is probably because of a lot of players saying it will be useless since muta will be able to get a huge mid game advantage and roll the toss before (old) tempest can do anything.
Let's assume you said is correct.
It just goes to highlight how Blizzard is unable to solve problems in the game.
I'd argue that Mass Muta wasn't a problem ,it just took some time to figure out. By the end of WOL, you never really saw it in tournaments, because Mass Blink Stalker and Storm handled it.
It became a problem again HOTS when they introduced Muta regen.
|
The main issue is that Blizzard tried and is still trying (rather unsuccessfully) to make SC2 appeal as much as possible to casual gamers, thus simplifying the game to the point where it is somewhat extremely unfit for high level play, mostly due to simplified micro and macro and easy to use, but for high level play badly designed units like swarm host and oracles.
|
On February 11 2014 01:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:36 S1eth wrote:
You have completely misunderstood what DK said.
Maybe I did. But tell me, what happened to the problem of Zerg not having aggressive options in the midgame? Because that is the reason that Swarmhost exists. If the problem never existed, then the Swarmhost was made for no reason. And what does that say about the design team?
Are you arguing that Zerg never had that problem or that SH cannot solve it?
EDIT:
And from what I remember, wasn't their argument for introducing the SH that Zerg can often be in a lead but has problems finishing off their opponents?
|
On February 11 2014 01:42 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:36 S1eth wrote:
You have completely misunderstood what DK said.
Maybe I did. But tell me, what happened to the problem of Zerg not having aggressive options in the midgame? Because that is the reason that Swarmhost exists. If the problem never existed, then the Swarmhost was made for no reason. And what does that say about the design team? Are you arguing that Zerg never had that problem or that SH cannot solve it?
Both.
And it evidenced by the fact the Swarmhost did not solve the problem, David Kim admitted this, and it has just created other issues.
And yes to your edit, it was unit that would allow the Zerg to finish off opponent in the mid game.
|
|
|
On February 11 2014 01:43 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:42 S1eth wrote:On February 11 2014 01:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:36 S1eth wrote:
You have completely misunderstood what DK said.
Maybe I did. But tell me, what happened to the problem of Zerg not having aggressive options in the midgame? Because that is the reason that Swarmhost exists. If the problem never existed, then the Swarmhost was made for no reason. And what does that say about the design team? Are you arguing that Zerg never had that problem or that SH cannot solve it? Both. And it evidenced by the fact the Swarmhost did not solve the problem, David Kim admitted this, and it has just created other issues.
What matchup are you talking about specifically?
|
I think the biggest issue is that there are 'free' units or spells. Basically, anything where Time is the limited factor instead of Resources (Swarm hosts versus Carriers for instance, the Swarm hosts have an indefinite supply of locusts so long as they are given the time, whereas carriers can ONLY have interceptors if they use 25 minerals). While it is even more extreme with SH's, it is also the case with basically anything with useful spells to use, like infestors, queens, BC's, ravens, etc.
It makes it so that your investments and efforts can result in no actual damage. So, instead of having something where every single action and attack matters, you have these drawn out situations where players are just waiting on Time before they do another action. [Proleague match with Soulkey and Reality g1] Soulkey has a bunch of swarm hosts, a single infestor, a few spores and a few queens. Reality has a bunch of vikings, ravens, siege tanks, and a few hellions and thors. The locusts were indefinite while the PDD's were indefinite. So, neither player actually is making any real ground because neither player needs resources or a unit's life (SOMETHING FINITE, NOT INFINITE) to sacrifice.
Every single action should be a thoughtful decision, where you must make a strategic choice instead of just falling back on things to refresh over time. Life on units and resources (min/gas) should be the limiting factor for things, NOT time.
|
I agree with Morrow. the problem is more deep than a simple "lel SH free units"
still I'll change the life-time locust's upgrade by a speed upgrade, and re-balance according to this.
|
On February 11 2014 01:44 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:43 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:42 S1eth wrote:On February 11 2014 01:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:36 S1eth wrote:
You have completely misunderstood what DK said.
Maybe I did. But tell me, what happened to the problem of Zerg not having aggressive options in the midgame? Because that is the reason that Swarmhost exists. If the problem never existed, then the Swarmhost was made for no reason. And what does that say about the design team? Are you arguing that Zerg never had that problem or that SH cannot solve it? Both. And it evidenced by the fact the Swarmhost did not solve the problem, David Kim admitted this, and it has just created other issues. What matchup are you talking about specifically?
Why do you frame it as me?
Blizzard did not specify which matchup (showing more incompetence...). They said when a Zerg got a big advantage early, they couldn't finish people off because they didn't have the aggressive tools in the midgame.
The Swarmhost was designed to fix this. We all know, and David Kim basically admitted it, that the Swarmhost failed at solving this problem. But what did Blizzard introduce to solve the problem? Nothing.
Why?
Because the problem never existed in the first place. Zergs didn't finish people off in WOL because it was safer to tech up to Hive and guarantee the win, then risk a mid game timing failing. When Hive tech sucked in early HOTS, Zergs did do mid game timings (especially against Terran) and won many games with them, ie Roach/Ling/Bane busts.
|
On February 11 2014 01:45 xuanzue wrote:
I agree with Morrow. the problem is more deep than a simple "lel SH free units"
still I'll change the life-time locust's upgrade by a speed upgrade, and re-balance according to this.
Instead of having Swarmhosts spawn 2 ranged Locusts every 25 seconds, have a Swarmhost spawn 6-8 melee Broodlings (the same ones that come out of a kill Zerg building with the rough the same stats including fast movespeed) every 10 seconds. However the Broodlings have a life of ~5 seconds (upgradable to ~8 seconds).
What does this mean?
Well, it means a few Swarmhosts are much more powerful in small numbers and allow Zerg to tech to late game. But it also means that mass Swarmhosts do nothing since Broodling can't walk through each other, and the low life timer means that most of the Broodlings from a mass of Swarmhosts just die off before they do any damage. Thus, once they reach a certain number they reach maximum efficiency and additional Swarmhosts would do literally nothing.
Finally, it means that Swarmhosts aren't really a siege unit anymore, because their range would be reduced. But they'd be really good for splitting up the attention of your opponent and as a harassment unit to harass expansions.
I said that in the beta test forum.
|
On February 11 2014 01:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
Swarm hosts problem is that small pockets of them aren't particularly good, and they work much better with army/static D support + high numbers of SH. You're not getting around that with changes in the meta, the meta has changed to reflect the role that Swarmhosts fulfil the best
I feel as if they're best suited for the trash bin. They would overlap with broods if they were hivetech, and overall they make the mid-game very boring in almost any match that they're used. Sure, occasionally we're treated to a "creative" use of SH within the bounds of the game's freedoms, but these fall short in the excitement department of creative uses for units that are actually entertaining.
|
I have been wondering if the economic problems, as morrow puts them, can be worked around with maps.
Could maps of 8 mineral patches and 2 gas geysers be changed to ensure a lower mining per base? Maybe 5 per base and 1 geyser only, however a larger amount contained in each to ensure similar longevity per base.
This would make expanding more beneficial.
It would of course affect balance, but the effect could be quite equal. I guess the mule would be maybe relatively more effective due to it not blocking other workers, but nevertheless it would still encourage more expanding and a more spread out gameplay.
|
On February 10 2014 22:43 Noocta wrote:
I don't really know how much shit people need to endure to finally accept that SC2 isn't a really good competitive game.
It drives from player stories and got its start from the Starcraft Brood war reputation.
I think what you're saying is a little unfair, there have been a fair share of bad games, but we've also witnessed some awesome ones.
|
On February 11 2014 01:40 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:37 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 01:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 11 2014 01:18 Ravomat wrote:On February 11 2014 01:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 10 2014 22:08 labbe wrote:Morrow, switch to starbow Even though it is unlikely, this is probably the most realistic solution. Assuming Blizzard will solve this issue is ignorant. They tried to solve it with HOTS, eliminating turtling that was a stated objective of theirs, but of course they manage to make the problem worse because the game designers don't understand the game. Remember how David Kim said they designed the Swarmhost to allow for Zerg to be aggressive in the mid-game? Look how that turned out. Time and again Blizzard has shown an inability to fix problems with SC2. According to DKs AMA recently they aren't unable they are unwilling. They like how it is. He made a critical logical error in his argument and I pointed it out. On February 06 2014 07:20 Pandain wrote:
Do you believe that the swarm host is proving to be used in the way that you wanted it to when you designed the unit for HotS? Do you like the way the swarm host is currently being used by pros? David Kim wrote:
The first question in our minds don't matter as much at this point.
He set out to fix a problem that he identified (Zerg not having aggressive options in the mid game). As we know, he failed. And now he says the problem doesn't matter? What happened to the problem of Zerg having issues being aggressive in the mid game? And why did he try to fix it in the first place!? By ignoring Pandain's question, he basically said the initial problem never existed. And what does that say about him? If the problem did not exist, why did he create the Swarm Host? Because he did think the problem existed, but he was wrong, and is unwilling to admit it. It proves he is unable to correctly identify problems in the game. It isn't that they are unwilling to fix them. They try to "fix" an issue, fail, and then forget about fixing said problem, because they realize the issue actually wasn't a problem in the first place. And we are left the the "results" (ie Swarmhost) which they then try to somehow fit into the game. And often the "results" overlap with existing units , ie Tempests. Remember Tempests solving the non-existent Muta problem in WOL? Yeah, me too. Now Tempests are just a replacement for the Carrier, performing nearly the same role (long range capital ship).Frankly, I'm not sure what is worse: Blizzard's inability to identify real problems with the game, or their inability to implement in the game what they had planned to implement. The Swarm Host is evidence of failure on both fronts. And it is why we are left with a unit that makes the game worse. Let's not even get started with other units like the Warhound. Mass Muta was a problem back in WoL. Tempest was introduced as a unit that is to counter mass muta once it reach critical number in the unit reveal panel, but they have changed it since the beta into a long range siege unit to focus on counting air massive unit The reason is because they went for a different direction on how to deal with mass muta, a buff to phoenix default range. This is probably because of a lot of players saying it will be useless since muta will be able to get a huge mid game advantage and roll the toss before (old) tempest can do anything. Let's assume you said is correct. It just goes to highlight how Blizzard is unable to solve problems in the game. I'd argue that Mass Muta wasn't a problem ,it just took some time to figure out. By the end of WOL, you never really saw it in tournaments, because Mass Blink Stalker and Storm handled it. It became a problem again HOTS when they introduced Muta regen.
You can't just say "mass blink stalker and storm" without understanding the "problem". it's not the unit that makes mass muta a problem
you should do some reading here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
it's all about how hard it is to grab that third for protoss and plus other strength from the zerg's macro and map control
hots was revealed during the time when mass muta was a problem.
And it is possible that because infestor broodlord became a big problem so that tempest got the change, which makes complete sense too.
|
On February 11 2014 01:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:15 ETisME wrote:On February 11 2014 01:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 10 2014 22:04 mnck wrote:On February 10 2014 22:03 Qikz wrote:
Swarmhosts just shouldn't exist. Reality should have won the first game with his slow push but he could barely move because soulkey had an endless supply of free units. They're just simply badly designed, nothing should be free in an RTS. Ravens have free units as well, PDDs together with tanks achieve the same thing. Both are silly and should be changed imo. really? First off. Auto-Turrets can't move. Second, Auto-turrets cost energy. Third Auto-turrets don't benefit from fucking upgrades. You're seriously trying to call them equal? it does benefit from building armor upgrade (and the duration upgrade) I know that, the upgrades I was referring to was attack and armor upgrades.
They're not units, so why should they benefit from armory upgrades? As if the raven isn't fucking ridiculous enough... and this is coming from a Terran player. The point someone made was that they're free. Sure, you got him on the energy cost (which goes without saying - but energy has a cap, meaning if you don't use it you're wasting it, too), but the fact that they cost 200/200 to be at their most useful makes them pretty damn good for technically free units. Raven gets the armor; that's enough. That's all it needs. It's the BEST detector in the game for utility and in numbers is the most abusive caster unit in the game.
|
On February 11 2014 01:51 Daeracon wrote:
I have been wondering if the economic problems, as morrow puts them, can be worked around with maps.
Could maps of 8 mineral patches and 2 gas geysers be changed to ensure a lower mining per base? Maybe 5 per base and 1 geyser only, however a larger amount contained in each to ensure similar longevity per base.
This would make expanding more beneficial.
It would of course affect balance, but the effect could be quite equal. I guess the mule would be maybe relatively more effective due to it not blocking other workers, but nevertheless it would still encourage more expanding and a more spread out gameplay.
I think a lot of things would need to be tweaked. Most of the timing builds would be changed. Stuff like mass speedlings might be too strong due to the fact they have a lot map control early game in both ZvP and ZvT.
|
On February 11 2014 01:44 Tiaraju9 wrote:
This thread is a waste.
It does seem to be one step above "the power of Protoss" reddit thing that happens every Protoss match. It's basically "Blarg! DK why you no listen to community?!?! S-host is bad design!!!"
|
On February 11 2014 01:44 Tiaraju9 wrote:
This thread is a waste.
The truth right here
All of this stuff has been reiterated and reiterated and beaten to death
The problem is and has been the designers of this game, they've proven they don't know what they're doing numerous NUMEROUS times.
Yet they are allowed to sit back and still spit out balogne to the people that play this game because of the endless fanboys that still hold on to the dream that "just hang on, they're working on it, they'll get it right... IT'S BLIZZARD come on remember??"
I swear if everyone had flipped their lid in wol beta like people did in d3, we wouldn't be having to deal with dustin and david as they would have stepped the fuk down already like they've needed to for a long painstakingly long ass time.
So here we are, 3-4 years later.. in the twilight of a game that in the right hands would have had well over a million viewers for each major tournament by now.
Move on people, the problem is at the core and the core isn't going to change.
This is the greatest game I've ever played in my life, it's a pity that just like our own government.. it fell into the wrong hands.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
