|
|
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote:
zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
Then WHAT IS the issue??? That Zergs don't have a 100% winrate on the map? 
I honestly don't like these knee jerk fixes. They literally do next to nothing. Yes, it's nice, but why not have less blind nerfs, and more nerfs/changes/redesigning that actually fix the core problems?
And REALLY?! They don't want to touch the Swarm Hosts? REALLY...? Guys... Come on... Protoss just has a terrible time against free sieging units. Before, we had the problem where the game would always either end early or build up to the "dodge the vortex" point. Now it's, end it early, or slowly die to these mass Swarm Hosts. Free units is bad design. I mean, we could go on with the list of things where you fucked up on in terms of bad design, but this one is pretty fucking obvious. I don't know... Like, David Kim supposedly plays this game at a decently high level right...? Then how is he missing all of the core problems by miles? Is someone else playing with his name and claiming to be David Kim so they can say that they have someone who actually understands how the game works on the balance and design team? Cause we know for fucking sure Dustin Browder plays at a poor level, and if he were left alone to balance the game (which might actually be what's going on), we'd be beyond fucked. Like, if you put a misfit band of pros together to make changes to the game, I assure you, nearly all combinations of pros would create a better game.
|
On February 04 2014 10:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25? So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way.
That's a good idea for LotV, but a terrible idea for a mid-expansion patch.
On February 04 2014 10:17 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25? Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them. As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix).
It would be fine if weakening them was coupled with lowering their supply to 1. Also, this is why we need a medium armor class.
On February 04 2014 11:12 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote:- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0.
Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly. What is damage point?
Damage point is the time from the start of the attack animation to the pointer that tells the game that a projectile has left the unit and is traveling towards the target. Right now, the Hydralisk has one of the longest damage points, whereas Marines and Marauders have very short ones.
|
United States7483 Posts
On February 04 2014 13:29 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 10:06 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25? So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way. That's a good idea for LotV, but a terrible idea for a mid-expansion patch. Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 10:17 Dingobloo wrote:On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25? Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them. As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix). It would be fine if weakening them was coupled with lowering their supply to 1. Also, this is why we need a medium armor class. Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 11:12 Zheryn wrote:On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote:- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0.
Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly. What is damage point? Damage point is the time from the start of the attack animation to the pointer that tells the game that a projectile has left the unit and is traveling towards the target. Right now, the Hydralisk has one of the longest damage points, whereas Marines and Marauders have very short ones.
There is a medium armor class, it's just not labeled. Ghosts are an example of a unit that belongs to this class: it is not light and it is not armored.
|
Well, at least they recognize this changes will ONLY help the standart TvP and not the MECH TvP as all the community is requesting... Sad to see this, but at least they listen half of what the community is saying.
Is sad as well to see there were lying when said they were listening to many Pros feedback, because they never show this to us, as the TL did.
Blizzard, you need to fix all this stuff as son as posible. There are lot of people, who wont stay in the game waitong for LotV to see it fixed...
|
If they want to buff hydras in ZvZ and ZvT they can always buff hydra damage vs biological, seems like pretty neat and clean solution to me, any cost buff will be really extreme. Or maybe a range buff?
|
*Blizzard makes adjustments to their plans based on feedback* "OMG Blizzard never listens to feedback"
|
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote:
Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Because scans have a cost and you can't just keep using it for scouting. It is like saying Protoss has permanent map hack because they have obs.
The fact that in pro PvT, the Protoss don't even bother to scout anymore because they can easily do it with their MsC,
|
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote:
Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
|
Is there a picture of the Deadalaus fix yet?
|
On February 04 2014 14:43 ROOTiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote:
Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need. Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so.
I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT.
I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
|
On February 04 2014 04:28 aeligos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 04:21 Ballesvette wrote:On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote:
zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well its an issue if you want to expand as protoss. The race played does not determine the expand ability. That is wholly dependent on (1) player skill, (2) builds chosen by both players, and (3) working knowledge of the units and the game in general.
as a zerg I tell you this: go three nexus before gateway and survive against me or anyone not completely braindead.
|
Ok so go ahead and make these changes quickly and hopefully the pro's will figure out what is going to change before Code S is completely ruined. If only they would've done this sooner..
Glad they are listening on the MSC vision range nerf, sounds good to me just wish it was going through with the other changes.
I'm pretty worried about the Ghost upgrade removal, I hope templar openers in PvT aren't going to disappear now. But then again, Terran's hardly ever use ghost's anyway. They seem to not like to have to actually cast abilities while controlling their army, something every other race has to do in every matchup.
The only thing I'm disappointed in is the comments on the swarm host. It's not just Europe where they are a problem, it's everywhere. How they don't see that is just mind boggling. Change the enduring locust upgrade to something that gives the players incentives to use them in a more aggressive manner, instead of just having them sit at their base rallying across the map. But then again, that also just completely over-looks the inherent design flaw with giving a race free units, which didn't seem to come into account when designing the carrier for some reason seeing as how Interceptors still require resources to produce, go figure. When a unit is extremely vulnerable when being moved around like the SH is because of the insanely slow burrow/unburrow speed and movement speed is upgraded with something that makes their free-spawning units last 5 times longer that can also reach most expansions from sitting at their own expansion, there is absolutely no incentive to ever move them or use them in an aggressive manner. And they spawn fucking free units! Who would've thought they'd be overpowered? Didn't see that coming...!
|
On February 04 2014 15:08 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Ok so go ahead and make these changes quickly and hopefully the pro's will figure out what is going to change before Code S is completely ruined. If only they would've done this sooner..
Glad they are listening on the MSC vision range nerf, sounds good to me just wish it was going through with the other changes.
I'm pretty worried about the Ghost upgrade removal, I hope templar openers in PvT aren't going to disappear now. But then again, Terran's hardly ever use ghost's anyway. They seem to not like to have to actually cast abilities while controlling their army, something every other race has to do in every matchup.
The only thing I'm disappointed in is the comments on the swarm host. It's not just Europe where they are a problem, it's everywhere. How they don't see that is just mind boggling. Change the enduring locust upgrade to something that gives the players incentives to use them in a more aggressive manner, instead of just having them sit at their base rallying across the map. But then again, that also just completely over-looks the inherent design flaw with giving a race free units, which didn't seem to come into account when designing the carrier for some reason seeing as how Interceptors still require resources to produce, go figure. When a unit is extremely vulnerable when being moved around like the SH is because of the insanely slow burrow/unburrow speed and movement speed is upgraded with something that makes their free-spawning units last 5 times longer that can also reach most expansions from sitting at their own expansion, there is absolutely no incentive to ever move them or use them in an aggressive manner. And they spawn fucking free units! Who would've thought they'd be overpowered? Didn't see that coming...!
You're right about swarm hosts, and that's the problem. Their basic issue is a DESIGN issue, not a BALANCE issue. You can nerf Swarm Hosts and while we'll stop seeing them (which is great) it will also unbalance ZvP completely. Swarm Hosts need to be redesigned into a different unit (kind of like Reapers and to some degree Void Rays were for HotS), and that's just not going to happen until LotV at the earliest. So given this unfortunate situation, I do agree with Blizzard that the WORST problem with Swarm Hosts is the 50+ minute nonsense games that ensue when a Zerg decides to use SH to turtle, covers the map with spore and spine crawlers, and just keeps abducting expensive units into static defense until the map runs out of resources or the Protoss falls asleep on his keyboard (I think we should just call this "the FireCake Problem" or "the Stephano Problem"--what IS it with French Zergs?). This seems less popular in Korea than in Europe (I guess no French Zergs there?) but RorO has been doing it a little recently so I'm all for them trying to make this strategy less viable.
|
On February 04 2014 14:57 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 14:43 ROOTiaguz wrote:On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote:
Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need. Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing? True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so. I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT. I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
I'm not arguing that Terran scouting is unique in being unreliable. I'm arguing that scans, whilst occasionally useful, are unreliable and this individual seems to think they are.
|
About Deadalaus point, instead of making the choke smaller to help walling, wouldn't it be nice if blizzard put in some mineral patch there?
Bw had some random patches that you could open a new patch after you mine it out, always thought that is pretty interesting
|
As I always complain I feel obliged to this also this time. At least little bit
First, I hope that Photon Overcharge will be nerfed as it was proposed earlier?
Time Warp cost increase may be interesting in general.
I am still not sure about EMP change. I think that in general, on highest level, like Korean level, it will make bio stronger, which is nice. But I can't really imagine it really could help playing Mech vs Protoss. Even with shields lost Protoss units kill Mech simply too fast.
The Daedalus change is needed, but personally I'm not happy. Why? Because Protoss players don't like this map, so as Terran I had bigger chance I will not have to face them on this map 
|
Really positiv feedback from rhis thread. Surprising. None of the patches so far caused so many positiv emotions. Well except for inestor one from wol
|
NO HYDRA BUFF?!?
No, I kid. Hydras don't really need a buff. Trying to "make" (read: force) roach/hydra to be viable in ZvT is dumb, just like trying to make mech viable in matchups where it isn't.
That said, patch changes look good.
Also, on the issue of swarmhost turtle strats: I don't think rebalancing tempest/spore is a great change. I think taking a look at the locust would be better. If Swarmhosts started to lose effectiveness once you got too many of them, that could help. Maybe rebalance the locust with shorter range so that they stack up on each other and aren't useful in super large numbers.
|
btw, when are they going to fix Alterzim?
|
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote:
zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
Lol what ? Never seen PvZ on this map ??
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
