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United States7483 Posts
On February 04 2014 09:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 07:53 LingBlingBling wrote:
How exactly would the tempest buff vs buildings work? Wouldn't that be to strong period in all mu? or is it just vs bio and even that would kinda destroy swarm host play, as that's really the only way to play it vs late game protoss deathball. Seems like most Pro zergs themselves don't like that style but play it because they feel it's the only way to beat late game protoss.
Show nested quote + Tempest:
Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
So that's all matchups. The change would essentially boost their dps vs. structures by 100%. This is still a lot less than what they do to massive air units (broodlords). Bio TvP is probably fine given that we rarely see ultra-lategame TvP with tempests and Terran isn't really reliant on heavy static defense in that scenario. If consistent mech TvP somehow became a reality, this might be a little trouble, but carriers seem to be the weapon of choice in that area anyway (at least according to Stats >_>). ZvP probably won't be broken by this, but I still don't like the change. Even though I don't think the SH is nearly as bad as people make it out to be, it's not exactly good either from an entertainment point of view. I'd rather they focus on doing an overhaul with the SH and corruptor. Not likely to see anything in that regard between expansions though 
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
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Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 04 2014 09:46 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Show nested quote +
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
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Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
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On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way.
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On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote:
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them.
As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix).
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United States97274 Posts
hooray for at least attempting to tweak the map and see how it goes instead of removing it! The rest of the map seems fine
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On February 04 2014 09:11 monsta wrote:
why dont we get a Fungal buff (more damage against air units) and nerf the spore back to the WoL version? this would completly fix ZvZ cause then Muta vs Muta would be more exciting and roach players have stronger infestors with stronger fungals..
- Buffing fungal vs air units might hurt the other matchups.
- Reverting the spore buff puts us back to where we were at the start of HotS. The problem was always more in the accessibility of the infestor. It was very risky to try to transition into them out of mutalisks because it gave the opponent a sizable window to just overwhelm you with a higher muta count.
- This doesn't address their goal of even attempting the hydralisk buff, which was to ease the transition to roach/hydra. Hopefully resulting in a little more diversity. Right now people sit on roaches for too long and sometimes even max out on them before transitioning to the addition of hydras, infestors, and vipers into their composition.
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On February 04 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 09:46 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win. You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time. Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
and to counter the HT countering the raven we have the ghost, interesting cirlce we have here. Tempest>Ghost > HT > Raven>tempest
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On February 04 2014 10:48 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:On February 04 2014 09:46 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win. You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time. Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests. and to counter the HT countering the raven we have the ghost, interesting cirlce we have here. Tempest>Ghost > HT > Raven>tempest
I don't know why you would need to counter it with a ghosts when you could just zone it out with a few tanks, ghosts with mech should be largely to deal with archons and immortals, in my opinion.
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On February 04 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 09:46 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win. You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time. Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
well usually you can ignore the Tempests because there are not enough to do any harm or there are to many so you can simply rush over the Protoss ignoring them completely. In a meching case, HTs can't even get close enough to feedback. You shouldn't calculate on mistakes by the opponent. The constant poking might trigger mistakes though especially in lower leagues.
The biggest advantage Tempest have over Carriers is that they don't need air upgrades. But if you want to drag out a game you have plenty of time to get air attacks and switch to the better unit, if you have the control for it that is.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 04 2014 10:59 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:On February 04 2014 09:46 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win. You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time. Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests. well usually you can ignore the Tempests because there are not enough to do any harm or there are to many so you can simply rush over the Protoss ignoring them completely. In a meching case, HTs can't even get close enough to feedback. You shouldn't calculate on mistakes by the opponent. The constant poking might trigger mistakes though especially in lower leagues. The biggest advantage Tempest have over Carriers is that they don't need air upgrades. But if you want to drag out a game you have plenty of time to get air attacks and switch to the better unit, if you have the control for it that is.
How does the terran attack into the protoss, exactly? Protoss can keep poking at terran from outside range forever with tempests, but terran has to commit to walking into range of the templar to hit the tempests. That means storms and feedbacks will go off np. Using tempests also means you have way more minerals left over for cannons and zealot harass, since you don't have to be making 100 interceptors every time you have a minor skirmish.
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On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote:- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0.
Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
What is damage point?
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I'm not sure if it's just me, but I really hate the map pool now. When I watch tournament streams, it's like most maps have... I'm not sure, but there's something about them that I hate. I enjoy watching games on Alterzim and Frost and a little of Yeonsu because of the size, but Daedalus, Habitation, Heavy Rain, and Polar Night are just so bad in their layout.
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Sooo how much is the sight range nerf for the test map? Currently the MSC has sight 14...I think nerfing it below 12 will change the PvP match up too much...as it is essential for scouting proxies in time and the opponent's base without getting sniped...
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On February 04 2014 07:30 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 07:23 vhapter wrote:
Not only have they decided to buff ghosts, which is retarded for a unit that's already strong against protoss, but they're still dead serious about buffing hydras - a freaking core unit that works perfectly fine. I don't know what to say anymore... it's like they want to tell people how to play by buffing certain units into oblivion instead of allowing players to devise their own strategies and accepting the fact that not every single unit will be used all the time. They didn't buff the ghost (which might have been more interesting) what they did was make it so the window where terran is at there strongest (midgame) starts a little earlier. The ghost as a unit is no stronger then it was last week but the initial post patch timings might make it look like it for a couple weeks.
This change just seems to be unnecessary. Ghosts are fine. This could make scv pulls with ghosts even stronger, which is unnecessary. Other than that, is there a point? Blizzard shouldn't buff things that are fine unless there's a good reason behind it.
Hydras are pretty damn good, yet they were thinking about a ridiculous hydra buff that would indirectly make muta switches even more op, besides allowing zergs to have a maxed out hydra army really early. Let's talk about protoss for a change then, the oracle buff was so uncalled for that even protoss players, myself included, disliked it. It makes PvP even more coinflippy and expanding becomes harder than it already was against stargate openers. I'm not gonna say it was a game breaking buff, it actually makes the oracle a better scouting tool, but if they want to make the oracle a more useful unit, give it a decent fleet fleet beacon upgrade or something, I don't know... just don't make it an even more bs unit than it already is.
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On February 04 2014 11:37 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Sooo how much is the sight range nerf for the test map? Currently the MSC has sight 14...I think nerfing it below 12 will change the PvP match up too much...as it is essential for scouting proxies in time and the opponent's base without getting sniped...
Scouting with hallucinations is still an option. PvP with photon overcharge shouldn't be so razor edge that getting a sentry would mean death.
As for proxies, scout it like Terrans do. Early scout and count pylons.
/edit
Either way, the effect will be shared equally by both Protoss. I don't actually know what you mean by "change the PvP match up too much".
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On February 04 2014 04:27 geokilla wrote:
LOL who said blizzard listens to the community? They just "test" it then do it anyways.
All three of the changes they went ahead with were heavily favored by the community (50%+ 'yes' in all three cases).
Go look up the polls in the previous thread. The changes that people were heavily against were pushed to the next test map or ditched.
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I really hope they can look into the issue with Sky Terran in TvZ. I honestly believe that once Terran gets that army the Zerg can't win if they are playing right.
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Eh the hydra change won't go through but it's good to see that they're still trying to find a way to buff the unit to make it more viable in other matchups. I support a minor hp buff so they're a little more cost effective and don't get absolutely steam rolled by mass roach. Removing one of the costly upgrades would be nice, but it won't really make roach/hydra VIABLE in ZvZ or ZvT situations IMO.
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EPT
