On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
I'd like that too, but the corruptor is a good candidate for most uninteresting unit in the game. I'd say make hydras better rather than cheaper and maybe do something interesting with the infestor. Infesteds are shit now anyway, might as well replace them with something useful. ZvP isn't that bad from a balance perspective, it's just the gameplay that leaves a lot to be desired. Just making hydras a lot cheaper could have some severe repercussions.
Wont do much about the turtle unless Blizzard is willing to go further than I imagine, but it could be a start.
Yeah, I think making hydra's slightly more durable would be a much much better option. The issue isn't really that you can't get enough, the issue is them being slaughtered before doing anything. This will not fix this, and will only serve to make timings much more annoying to deal with for Protoss in particular.
But the only thing I truly see here is.... THERE IS STILL NO NYDUS BUFF! :p
It seems that Zergs rather than buff hydras, they need a new AA system. Infestor´s fungal with bonus against air? like a skillshot with a reward for landing those fungals. Who knows.
They almost removed Fungals hitting air at one point :D
I think that people still don't get the greatest benefit of the 25 gas Hydras:
1 less base will be required to produce them.. THAT'S the BIGGEST of all.. The Hydralisk will be a fairly well round and extremely high damage MINERAL SINK unit.. YES - that's the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE.. It will be a MINERAL SINK unit - almost like a Zealot or Marine
There will be a new strat with the Hydras overall - like a 2 base 3 Hatch Hydra.. But since it's a fairly Mineral Sink unit - might make an all-in in terms of not being able to expand or invest into eco with making them, but surely you would end up having a gas bank if you mine gas effectively behind them.. AND THEN - who knows which transitions might come out - Hydras into Mutas, Hydras into Infestors, Hydras into BroodLords.. Like - noone knows at this point (probably cause noone tests it to the full potential)
I myself am a bad player and admit it didn't play more than a few games.. BUT those who can, can actually make a good feedback..
=========================================================================== The greatest problem of the Protoss (or PvZ against the "hybrid mode Zerg" when the Hydra gas cost is halved) is that Roaches can be defended with a Half tech of Protoss.. i.e. - Voidrays or Immortals.. Whilest for Hydras a full tech will be required by Protoss - i.e. - Colossi or Carrier, or Templar.. Like - that's by far the biggest difference of them all.. I am a (partial time) Bronzie ATM, but pretty sure that I know what I'm talking about
Now you might say that Hydras were T1 unit in BW and Protoss needed full tech vs Hydras as well - well - the problem is that in BW Protoss didn't have to fully commit to Air units to defend a possible Muta switch.. Now in SC2 they have to.. It was like 4-5 Sairs and you're good to go to start working on Templars, now it is either far too micro-heavy to make it happen, or it just plain isn't enough at this point
=========================================================================== And as a "representative" of the "noobs" - everyone says the TvP problem is early timing and such.. Don't fully disagree, might be a thread of truth in that too.. But what I also think that Terran problem is that - the race as a whole has only one Core versatile unit - the Marine.. AND - not everyone is good on Marine splitting.. Everything else is either designed to be a timing-unit, or a special-occasion unit, or a Marine-support unit.. The only 2 "exceptions" of this rule are Banshees and Thors which can operate both on their own, but their problems respectively is that the first are "dead in the water" if opponent has Air units and the second requires some "fodder support".. Therefore the race ends up having only 1 Core (or at least only one versatile and easily produce-able) unit as a whole
And IMO it's AT LEAST a bad "marketing" to make a whole damn race performance depend on splitting a T1 unit.. That's why everyone asks for a Mech buff for game's sake.. THAT, and for the sake of diversity in the matchup..
So - any mech buff would be good ATM.. And it's not hard to make it happen either - considering that the only real thing that has to be taken into consideration is to watch out to not cause Zerg suffer more cause of the change.. A good move for example is test out some ways to make the WM being better vs Protoss and better Tank/Flank-guard unit.. IDK about higher league levels, but I guarantee you that that's like 80% of what Terran lacks on the lower league levels - make one factory unit being able to guard Tanks from Zealots and Immortals.. In the case of Zealots - perhaps Hellbats are OK, but nothing seems to be in the case of Immortals..
So by having that in mind it's a simple fix IMO - try make the WM "activate" from further away if a mech (i.e. - non-bio) unit is in the vicinity for a test example.. See how it turns out.. See how often will Mines trigger on Immortals, is it possible to "hold tank lines" at least half-decently.. OR EVEN BETTER - make mines Trigger from further away against ROBOTIC units.. Pretty sure that that "class" existed in the game.. Or was it only in BW.. ?? Not sure though :/
But yah - make Mines trigger from fruther away vs Immortals and that's like half of the problem solved.. If not all of it as a whole
=========================================================================== As for the SwarmHost - it's fairly easy - it is THE ONLY ZERG UNIT (beside the Zergling) that has a diminished creep speed bonus (the Locust I mean).. The Queen and the Crawlers have 150% movement increase, The Zergling has 30%, and the Locust has 40% movement speed increase.. Everything else Zerg that's on the ground unit has a 50% movement speed creep bonus.. The Roach, Hydra, Ultra, SwarmHost.. ofc. Hydras have the speed upgrade that increases their non-creep bonus, but that's OK.. Like - why do the Locusts have diminished creep-spread bonus ?
Make the Locust have it's full Creep-speed benefit (i.e. 50% instead of 40% creep speed bonus), make it 2 range instead of 3 (so could be easier dealt with, in terms of having a smaller concave, and having a smaller sniping potential), AND - REMOVE THE UPGRADE.. See how it goes.. And if that makes the unit bad - then just reduce the spawning locust period and therefore reduce the vulnerability length of the unit
If SHs without the upgrade are too damn vulnerable and are nearly untouchable with it - then clearly something about the unit is badly designed.. Simple
For me the corruptor and the colossus are the two units I hate the most. Doesnt matter if its playing with them or against them, or watching them in pro games. Blizzard will probably never get rid of the colossus because they think its so "cool" lol, but maybe the corruptor can take a very long vacation :o
You can not buff Corruptors, cause it will make muta corruptor composition unstoppable for P.
Once, Z reaches critical mass of M and C, Protoss has only 2 choices, stupid base trade or upgraded phoenixes. Better Corruptors will hit the 2nd option, and will result in even more base trades.
I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
I wonder how many of the pros have a "good guy" approach, look at sc2 in the long run and want it to become balanced. And how many want the $$$ so they support retarded changes or will complain no matter what. Im not wise enough to judge on the incoming changes, some seem too much for me. I remember Kim saying the numbers were good(ish) for the 312342341234 time he got asked, a few weeks ago. These changes seem to be heavily nerfing toss. Im pretty certain that if they break something bad, I wont be here to wait for another "fix". Some people say Blizzard doesnt care for balance, Ive been saying for more than 8 years that they do care, but they choose to make complicated games and they CANT balance them. Some people dont mind, some do. I guess in any competitive game, like wow pvp or sc, sc2, wc3 it has the top priority. If you cant have balance there isnt much reason in competing. Something thats for fun or coop/pve, you dont really mind.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
This would also create a very convenient transition into tvp mech, which seems to be something Blizzard wants to see as they have made quite a few mech buffs during the past 6 months
It seems that Zergs rather than buff hydras, they need a new AA system. Infestor´s fungal with bonus against air? like a skillshot with a reward for landing those fungals. Who knows.
They almost removed Fungals hitting air at one point :D
Making fungal good vs whatever was beating zerg is what led to the broodlord infestor horribleness. It's a retarded spell at the best of times, belongs in the skip with forcefield.
On February 03 2014 21:53 TW wrote: You can not buff Corruptors, cause it will make muta corruptor composition unstoppable for P.
Once, Z reaches critical mass of M and C, Protoss has only 2 choices, stupid base trade or upgraded phoenixes. Better Corruptors will hit the 2nd option, and will result in even more base trades.
Hmm, how about giving corruptors a morph firebat-like from Armoured Carapace to Fleshy Carapace. This would cocoon them for ~5seconds before emerging looking noticeably different, and having Light rather than Armoured type. (And also -1 armour).
This way you could defeat massed void rays with Fleshy Corruptors, but they would be very vulnerable to Phoenix who would now do 18 instead of 6 damage a shot. This would mean if you caught the Phoenix out of position you could attack the void rays, then morph back.
vs Stalkers they would take 3 less damage a shot, but they would be very vulnerable to Phoenixes.
vs Terran, they would be much better against Vikings, but would really suffer against marines and Thors.
It would be a buff, but it would have pros and cons, so might lead to more interesting play? As people have mentioned, corruptors are currently rather boring units.
Duration decrease won't really impact TvP, which arguably needs the most attention right now. I guess they don't want to drastically lower it for the sake of PvP and how volatile the match up is, surely there are other angles they could balance it from.
Time Warp energy increase is a good step, but ultimately not enough. Vision range NEEDS to be reduced, amongst other things.
Can't really comment on Tempest, it seems this unit is being tweaked due to how Swarm Host ZvP games usually work out, instead of buffing the Tempest, why are they not addressing one of the worst designed units in the game (Swarm Host) instead?
Ghost upgrade doesn't really address the issues people are having in TvP. While it is a pretty strong change, it fails to help Terrans early game options, and instead seems to be a change that will only impact timings in the mid game. I hear people talking that it will completely shut down HT openers, but if you want a ghost or two for the usual timing (around 10 minutes) you need to cut 300/200 minerals and gas from somewhere to afford it, you either delay upgrades/medivacs/or how early your timing is just to have ghosts out for the push. It will be forgiving on Terrans who have bad macro, apart from that I don't see how it helps with what people are having difficulty with.
The Zerg change is just really baseless, I have no idea why they want to even think about testing this change. The impact it would have especially on ZvP is just silly.
I honestly do not know how I would propose to fix the TvP issues. I feel the Mothership Core is too valuable offensively and defensively. Objectively Protoss have more VIABLE early game options that the Terran currently, powerful 1 base and 2 base timings, while having the option for safe, greedy macro focused play, which culminates in a powerful, hard to handle late game army. TvP feels stagnant on the Terran side, and I honestly don't know how Blizzard will address this without drastically changing the match up.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
That's a pretty interesting approach. If the po had a range of 11 or 12 instead of 13 siegetanks would be able to outrange it, while toss has the ability to snipe the unit or building providing the vision for the tank. That could be an interesting dynamic that opens up counter play. The current state with po range =tank range+ extreme vision on the mothership core is just one sided. A reduced casting range for po is also worth considering.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
I agree an proposed that among other necessary changes here
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
On February 03 2014 21:34 VArsovskiSC wrote: If SHs without the upgrade are too damn vulnerable and are nearly untouchable with it - then clearly something about the unit is badly designed.. Simple
Sounds exactly like the siege tank and the collosus.
Protoss Mothership Core: Will benefit PvT and PvP a lot which is good, for PvZ it didn't matter to much.
Tempest: I don't think this is a really big chance, so I am not sure about this one.
Terran Ghost: I think the Ghost were good enough already, just a lot of terrans not knowing how to control.
Zerg Hydralisk: Don't do this. Hydra's are already good, and will only make them better. I agree with TLO's perspective. Don't make the gas cost less, but try to patch them in a different way.
EPT
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