On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: The thing is about us vocal whining Terrans is that I think most of us are plat/diamond/masters and at this level it's not about Protoss being OP. It's about them being much easier to play.
"Oh I forgot to macro for a whole minute... WARP IN YAY!!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I wasn't looking at my army for 2 seconds, it's still very much alive cause tons of HP YAY!!!!!!!"
"Oh, i'm battling a Terran. I'll keep a moving forward and being able to macro a bit while the Terran endlessly stutter steps or dies YAY!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to buy time. Force fields and nexus cannon YAY!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to scout. Hallucinate, observers, oracles, blah blah blah"
Terrans macro is harder, the micro is much more demanding, viable army comps are a glass cannon, and Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time. It's not the balance. It's the mechanics of playing toss that are lol worthy. It's like literally every core part of the game is easier to do as Protoss than Terran.
And I was also a much higher ranking Protoss player when I first played SC2, even though I'm much more experienced now and play Terran.
I don't agree about scouting abilty. At the very least terrans have as good scouting abilities as toss. Bunker is decent to buy time too, although I agree on certain map it is not because of blink (and this is part of the recent balance issues).
About stutter step, steam + mediboost sometimes also look annoying as hell from a toss point of view. Not that it's not balanced but just saying it can be a similar feeling. Protoss units have more HP but they are more expensive. If you lose one because you re not looking, you will lose much more. You may need to move them with more care. Overall it requires less APM, but I do think a wrong strat will screw you easily as a toss.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
Reducing it to a 6-7 range Channeled spell that leaves the MSC immobile makes it so that you can go for dedicated pressure and kill the MSC. Positioning the MSC behind the nexus and buildings makes it less vulnerable, but it doesn't completely shut down all pressure.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mutas Counter Voidrays hard. It goes like this: Phoenix>Muta>Voidray>Corruptor>Phoenix. So we usually end up with Voidray/Phoenix vs. Muta/Corruptor micro battle. Nothing wrong here. I would even give slight edge to Zerg here, becouse Phoenixes aren't that good against Mutas if you can't kite them. And you can't kite with Phoenixes if you have to protect your Voids. On the other hand, with Anion pulse crystals, Phoenixes are quite good even against Corruptors. From ground units, there are hydras (until some AoE is there for Protoss) and especially queens to counter Voids, as you pointed out. But yeah, Hydras suck against Protoss in mid-late game. But it's similar to Mutas, Protoss don't have any ground counter against them except Archons. But Archons counter Mutas just theoreticaly, becouse no Zerg will fight them straight. If Protoss don't have Phoenixes, Mutas will just demolish Probe lines, meanwhile Zerg can expand whenever he wants. Guys, try to view each matchup from both points of view, if you would do that, you would find out, that Zerg problem with Voids is very similar to Protoss problem with Mutas.
I was triyng to say, that while there isn't issue with PvZ balance-wise, there is issue design-wise.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
Issue is that queens are clearly the response vs voidrays but queens have no offensive ability without some cheesy nydus play. It forces zerg to just chill and that's super boring... void rays are a badly designed unit - simple as that.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
Yeah, it's true, that you don't have to go Phoenixes every time, if you open with SG and scout properly. Still, I think, that there should be other counters to Mutas, than just Phoenix.
About late game armies and boring game, I think that TLO suggestion is the best here. Nerf SHs, while nerfing Protoss air. That way IMO, there would be more diversity in late game PvZ.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
Issue is that queens are clearly the response vs voidrays but queens have no offensive ability without some cheesy nydus play. It forces zerg to just chill and that's super boring... void rays are a badly designed unit - simple as that.
Zerg should never engage a late game protoss army off creep or away from the mass spores anyway. Even if queens could somehow chase down rays you'd still be far better off chilling at home. Yeah void rays are a terrible unit, but we have plenty of those to go around.
On February 03 2014 17:05 vthree wrote: Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
Actually protoss was and is underpowered. Nothing change since the release of HOTS. Game was stale for almost a year. But all of a sudden protoss became OP. Logics.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
Yeah, it's true, that you don't have to go Phoenixes every time, if you open with SG and scout properly. Still, I think, that there should be other counters to Mutas, than just Phoenix.
About late game armies and boring game, I think that TLO suggestion is the best here. Nerf SHs, while nerfing Protoss air. That way IMO, there would be more diversity in late game PvZ.
I think both impose problems. SH vs Terran Mech (though I'd be quite willing to see how it plays out) and Protoss Air is imo not in a very nerfable state. Worse VRs, and midgame Protoss SG play may just collapse against Zerg, and it is already underpowered against bio and Protoss. Worse Tempests, probably doable without killing SG play, but I don't see this really changing that Zerg needs Spores/SH/Viper against deathballs.
The root of the problem lies much deeper imo. It's not just one unit that forces Zerg into such gameplay (so not a *perceived* antiair weakness is the problem), Zerg gets into trouble against other deathball variations of Protoss as well, if Protoss just doesn't attack with it too early (against non SH play). And Protoss needs those deathballs to combat mid-lategame compositions and Zergs mobility.
How about allowing for 4 hellbats in one medivac again. After hellbats nerf it shouldnt be as imba as it used to be, and Terrans could eventualy punish P taking fast 3rd Nexus after faked blink allin.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time.
shift+click medivacs, so creative!!1
I agree with most of these points except the fact that on low level micro doesn't matter. In TvP, micro absolutely matters because you can be equal with protoss as a terran, but have your entire army vaporized with 3 or 4 storms...it's not as unforgiving as protoss fighting against ghosts but getting hit by a few good EMPs can mean certain defeat.
On February 04 2014 01:16 TW wrote: How about allowing for 4 hellbats in one medivac again. After hellbats nerf it shouldnt be as imba as it used to be, and Terrans could eventualy punish P taking fast 3rd Nexus after faked blink allin.
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
Reducing it to a 6-7 range Channeled spell that leaves the MSC immobile makes it so that you can go for dedicated pressure and kill the MSC. Positioning the MSC behind the nexus and buildings makes it less vulnerable, but it doesn't completely shut down all pressure.
I agree it makes some sense. What are your thoughts on minigun's comments about MSC ?
EPT
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