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bilow
Latvia25 Posts
Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded! | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded! I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. 1) proposed balance maps give us some insight into what blizzard is thinking 2) these "big changes" blizzard proposes are not actually big enough - see mothership core, swarmhost late game fix, and if you want to look all the way back to the start of starcraft: warpgate tech 3) blizzard does implement these changes, sometimes regardless of waht the community thinks: queen range, oracle speed | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 03 2014 19:05 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Well he is a zealot after all. ;D ;D ;D But yea tbh you've got to be delusional not to realize the flaws that this game's had since its inception. I mean it's great that Blizzard are still trying to fix things, but still... Then again looking at this suggested batch of chances it makes you wonder if they have any idea what the problems are, since this would break more than it would fix for sure. Mate, I'm well aware of the game's flaws. Always have been. But, it would be equally delusional to deny that there is disagreement about some of the flaws, and disagreement about how to fix them (even if the flaws are agreed on), and disagreement that TL posters' agreement speaks for the SC2 community. Don't confuse skepticism with blindness. In this case, I do not agree that GW units are weak or that WG is seriously flawed. Blizzard have even stated as such (way back in WOL). I do think the economy may be a problem (but I don't know for sure). It would be great if Blizzard looked at it again but, having done so before HOTS (see an AMA with DB) they have chosen to continue with it as it is because changing the economy would be too much work (maybe for unknown reward). That is a valid reason even if I may not like it. So, I see little point in remaking the same arguments for the nth time. Given that, when I see these arguments pop up, sometimes I'm going to make fun of them. Because most of them are stupid. (Although, to be fair, they may be new posters who may have independently come to the conclusion: fix WG = fix game!) As to these changes, they will rarely please everybody. I was against most of these changes but now I am not so sure. With some tweaks they could make the game better (e.g. cheaper Hydra upgrade). And having played with the Tempest in the test map a few times, I like it. It could use some work (tone down damage and make it an upgrade) but it is a cool change. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded! The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance. Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
Minigun makes some really excellent ideas, and they are very reasonable for both sides of the matchup. I think seeing what something like that would do to help Terrans while not killing Protoss in PvP or other matchups is something that needs to happen right now to keep the players and the viewers interested in the game in it's current state. TLO makes some great points as well, so I really hope Blizzard takes a look at this, and thinks up some fresh ideas. Because just the fact that they would throw out ideas like the Tempest buff, or the Hydra decrease in cost, is just really, really baffling, and shows a very large lack of understanding of what's going on in this game at the moment. Avilo, as much as he complains and whines about things all the time, makes a very good point in his post earlier in this thread about mech. Decreasing the armory cost would be a step in the right direction, and much more so then removing the ghost upgrade, in getting mech to a respectable level of viability. Although I think mech is a very untapped strength of Terran's that we are starting to see the strength of in all matchups, there needs to be something to help them out in the early game that makes it a smart decision to go down that path instead of bio. And with the ghost buff, I think it will just reinforce the idea that bio is just hands down a better composition in TvP, while only slightly helping mech get ghosts with more energy 40 seconds sooner. Armory costs would be a much more realistic and logical step to helping mech in that matcup in my extremely humble opinion. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On February 03 2014 21:01 RaFox17 wrote: So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle. You're simplifying the problem and stating an example that is stupid. Roaches get killed by immortals, according to your logic, we should buff them. Also, corruptors die to void ray (and void ray to queens, lol) - you simply do not go mass corruptor vs. a voidray based composition. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 04 2014 03:45 Teoita wrote: The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance. Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them. I think you are right, unfortunately. Worse, 2.1 means that total newbies (and I mean total newbies) sometimes play on that map. A couple of games I played were a total waste of time. I made a comment regarding this on the Blizzard forums. That said, I still liked playing with building smashing Tempests, though. It was a lot of fun smashing structures. A weekend invitational for a small prize with pro players (they don't even have to be top pros) would be better. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On February 04 2014 04:45 aZealot wrote: I think you are right, unfortunately. Worse, 2.1 means that total newbies (and I mean total newbies) sometimes play on that map. A couple of games I played were a total waste of time. I made a comment regarding this on the Blizzard forums. That said, I still liked playing with building smashing Tempests, though. It was a lot of fun smashing structures. A weekend invitational for a small prize with pro players (they don't even have to be top pros) would be better. How about some special icon for playing ten games on a test map? I played WoW for ages and all that was necessary to motivate me to spend 10 hours doing some trivial task was the promise of a special mount or pet. SC2 is different of course, but maybe it works. | ||
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
On February 02 2014 22:35 uh-oh wrote: make interceptors spread out more(so they are less vulnerable vs fungal growths) why exactly does fungal even work on interceptors? i feel like it should at least not root them... like, one fungal makes a carrier dead weight... | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
God only knows when we'll see a proper shake up of late game PvZ at this rate. | ||
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MavivaM
1535 Posts
I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one? The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins... I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one! | ||
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Anthro
Canada15 Posts
The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance. Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them. @Teoita I think that is a really smart statement about the usefulness of test maps though I'm sure a few of the pros would try out the map in their spare time. If HuK and Idra have time to play mini-games on their streams they most likely have time to try out a test map or two. This wouldn't be serious testing which is the main point to be taken from proposed changes and test maps such as this. Always interesting to hear the perspectives of the pros. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On February 04 2014 09:11 Dingobloo wrote: They went back on the hydra change, I hope everyone is happy, we're left with only the most pointless and conservative changes. God only knows when we'll see a proper shake up of late game PvZ at this rate. Yeah, really bad move by Blizzard. As a zerg, going to MLG and kicking the shit out of Parting, Rain and Sos would've been amazing, but thanks to Blizzard I'm going to have to get out of gold league before trying to go pro. Great job guys. No really. | ||
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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pivor
Poland198 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 04 2014 10:05 MavivaM wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the ghost buff will actually encourage 2 base allins even more? I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one? The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins... I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one! The all in is indeed earlier - mere seconds earlier. The three ghosts you make when you go for the ghost+scv All In generate 25 mana on the way to your base and thus, are EMP ready when they get there anyways. Maybe this makes the timing a couple of seconds earlier, but nothing major. You don't get a free extra ghost either, because in the build you produce three (the number of tech-labbed Barracks you have). The defensive timing is a lot faster, by about 40 seconds, which is good for mech and bio alike, but Bio doesn't really face offensive attacks you need Ghosts for that couldn't be replaced by sim city and bunkers - Mech, however, greatly benefits from EMP on Archons and Immortals. Also, don't overestimate EMP. It's the combination of mass EMP, Vikings and Cloak that deals with the Deathball, just EMP means you get collosus'd. You seem to fear a late-game occurrence as a result of this buff, but that situation only happens because of mass ghost viking. | ||
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Battousai13
United States638 Posts
Avilo's suggestions for Armory balance changes was also very poignant. I think some thing that goes unaddressed is how Terran is unable to utilize gas in the late game. Dumping all that gas into Ravens is not an effective use of gas. Going Battlecruisers also doesn't do anything. It's a whacky suggestion, but I think nuke call-down time should be reduced a bit. Clide once showed how nukes could be used as a zoning tactic, and in general, nukes are severely underused. The ghost balance changes doesn't really do much for Terran. Some of the Terran pro-gamers have already noted that Ghosts will pick up the EMP energy as they walk across the map. Giving Ghosts EMP energy out of the Barracks just creates this funky timing for a bio push. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On February 04 2014 10:05 MavivaM wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the ghost buff will actually encourage 2 base allins even more? I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one? The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins... I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one! I do not see it bad to give Terrans option to go 2-base allinning. | ||
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Danger-dog
United States50 Posts
Now, since hydras are lair, they're coming out so late anyway that you are super-committed to doing damage with the first wave, which makes the range upgrade the strongly favored choice. And since it's so late, there's almost zero chance you're gonna be fighting a melee army that you can kite the way you might have been in BW, further undermining the value of speed in actual combat situations. Where you used to have this valid dichotomy, now you have a high-odds choice and a low-odds choice. Reducing the build time doesn't really fix the underlying problem, but at least it means that you'll be getting the speed upgrade part way through the fight instead of after you've either won or all your hydras are already dead. | ||
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