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On January 28 2014 15:22 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 15:09 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On January 28 2014 15:02 CuSToM wrote:
this is awesome. not sure why everyone outside of industry people are so angry about it, because it doesn't affect you at all.
looking forward to this, hopefully IEM doesn't go back on it. :D Doesn't affect us so we shouldn't care about those it does affect? :\ Not everyone cares only about what affects themselves. Compassion is one thing that comes into it. Besides, why do so many people fail to realize that what's bad for players is also bad for tournament organizers, bad for teams, and bad for viewers. If players can't play, then none of the others exist. Of course one tournament won't break the system, but the fact that IEM is saying that they don't give no fucks about it all, and just want a quick "get rich quick" event instead of running an event that they already had promised to run, is disgusting, and should be looked down upon. There are other ways to do this in which everyone wins, but IEM don't care.
On January 28 2014 04:58 Kennigit wrote:
Some thoughts, since the reaction is as mixed as we expected.
IEM's 5 events leading up to IEM Katowice have 125k in combined prize money.
- 40 fully paid travel + hotel throughout the season
- Guaranteed 350$ if you made it through open bracket to group stage
- Open brackets at the main season events
- Open bracket spots available at cologne
IEM does more than most to support the SC2 player player space and what we realized is that as important at it is, we want Katowice to be special - it's not about giving a little bit to everyone. The Starcraft 2 community is now competing against the likes of Dota 2, LoL and even CS:GO which will have a 250,000$ prize pool going on at the same time. If you want to talk and complain about Alive Game, then you have to take risks and make shit happen. Following the model of the last 3 years when there exists a WCS system to support players internationally just wont cut it. The WCS existence is a really important part of the equation in if doing a single event in the season as Winner Takes All Single Elim makes sense.
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Dont like it at all. Will tune in though.
Am I supporting or killing eSports with this disgusting behavior for which some of you will lose all respect?
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On January 28 2014 13:34 wongfeihung wrote:
I love everything about this. I have grown tired of esports causing players to be satisfied with losing, i.e. players being satisfied with placing top 32, 16, etc.
In the olden days, people played with the objective of winning and being the best. Money was just an added incentive. It used to be called competitive gaming, not esports. This tournament embodies that mindset.
lol, have you seen players that have lost matches in GSL? Never mind the finals. They are devastated even when getting knocked out of Code A...
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On January 28 2014 14:46 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 28 2014 13:34 wongfeihung wrote:
I love everything about this. I have grown tired of esports causing players to be satisfied with losing, i.e. players being satisfied with placing top 32, 16, etc.
In the olden days, people played with the objective of winning and being the best. Money was just an added incentive. It used to be called competitive gaming, not esports. This tournament embodies that mindset. Yeah... Those days didn't exist. Ever. Money is what made it a professional competition, because money is what lets you dedicate your time and effort. But if you ever want to see your glory days again, feel free to watch all the low-master and diamond streams that are listed on the sidebar. uhh what? You might want to freshen up on your reading comprehension because you addressed absolutely nothing he said in his comment. What does low-master/diamond streams have to do with anything he just said?
Current skill level in SC2 has grown only because of a professional scene with money. Same with basically every other competitive game that's become an E-sport.
The "olden days" where being the best was everything and money was a non-factor is total fiction. If you want to see what the kind of play is like when people don't compete for money, Diamond/low-masters streams is where you'll see it; where players can't dedicate their lives, and builds and strategies that aren't refined by people that have dedicated theirs.
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New Zealand15076 Posts
Should be good, I don't get the big uproar. If the players are upset by it, they can not bother trying to qualify through the open bracket. If they're already qualified then they have already won a decent amount so aren't exactly strapped for cash anyways.
I don't know why the viewers are getting up in arms on behalf of the players. It's not our money that's being split this way and it's not like its happening every tournament. Players can still get money for placing/qualifying in every single other tournament. Why not something different?
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On January 28 2014 15:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 14:46 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 28 2014 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 28 2014 13:34 wongfeihung wrote:
I love everything about this. I have grown tired of esports causing players to be satisfied with losing, i.e. players being satisfied with placing top 32, 16, etc.
In the olden days, people played with the objective of winning and being the best. Money was just an added incentive. It used to be called competitive gaming, not esports. This tournament embodies that mindset. Yeah... Those days didn't exist. Ever. Money is what made it a professional competition, because money is what lets you dedicate your time and effort. But if you ever want to see your glory days again, feel free to watch all the low-master and diamond streams that are listed on the sidebar. uhh what? You might want to freshen up on your reading comprehension because you addressed absolutely nothing he said in his comment. What does low-master/diamond streams have to do with anything he just said? Current skill level in SC2 has grown only because of a professional scene with money. Same with basically every other competitive game that's become an E-sport. The "olden days" where being the best was everything and money was a non-factor is total fiction. If you want to see what the kind of play is like when people don't compete for money, Diamond/low-masters streams is where you'll see it; where players can't dedicate their lives, and builds and strategies that aren't refined by people that have dedicated theirs.
Amm the majority of Brood War foreigners played for virtually of no money and you can't really compare them to diamond/low master...
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On January 28 2014 15:33 Phredxor wrote:
Should be good, I don't get the big uproar. If the players are upset by it, they can not bother trying to qualify through the open bracket. If they're already qualified then they have already won a decent amount so aren't exactly strapped for cash anyways.
I don't know why the viewers are getting up in arms on behalf of the players. It's not our money that's being split this way and it's not like its happening every tournament. Players can still get money for placing/qualifying in every single other tournament. Why not something different?
There is no open bracket in the first place and every player attending the event gets a paid trip + accomodation.
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Everyone who says the prize-pool doesn't make the tournament consider this then, do you get the same hype, the same intensity when you watch a $100 first place prize final than when you were watching say, Blizzcon $100,000 prize pool? No you don't. So while I agree the prize-pool alone does not make any tournament, but having a $100,000 first place prize is pretty fucking great. Trying to predict what the games are going to be like before hand is just silly. Games hardly ever turn out like they were expected based on a ton of different factors. And why would the RO16 games not be as good as the Finals? It's still single elimination so practically every series is a Finals for the players. Most of the IEM tournaments have been open bracket qualifiers, with very balanced prize pool distribution, and qualifying the 1st/2nd place players for this battle-royale for 100k puts some extra incentive for the remaining tournaments. And what if the Finals is a rematch of a previous IEM final? Do you not think that the previous 2nd place finisher would want to get revenge and keep his opponent from winning the 1st place prize? This has a chance to be great fun, and it's really disappointing seeing some of the comments that are just complaining and being negative for the sake of being negative. They see 2 high profile personalities say they dislike this and just jump onboard without doing any thinking or reasoning themselves. A lot of these comments are just ridiculous and are obviously so far from reality and clearly come from someone who didn't take the time to read the whole thread, or look at the big picture in all of this. Who knows what they will do to compensate the players for taking the time to come compete at this event? Besides all expenses paid, maybe they will do some other things to reward the players on top of the prize money already won in the "qualifying" IEM tournaments leading up to this. Who says the only the reason we are excited about this is because of the prize money? I think everyone can agree that if the games are good and enjoyable who cares about the prize money? That is just to reward the player for putting on a good show and proving he was the best player at this particular event. With the WCS system really providing a good backbone, I would love to see other tournaments taking more risks and thinking outside the box for special events. There are literally 100+ tournaments, probably way more than that even, that have the traditional formatting and traditional prize-pool distribution, so having 1 tournament change up from that isn't going to end the world. CHILL OUT PEOPLE. This community has really started to display a "I know best for everyone and everything" kind of attitude these days, and it's really frustrating. People posting negative comments clearly without even knowing all of the facts about the topic shows that very attitude is taking over. What happened to the awesome Starcraft community we used have? You aren't adding anything to the conversation by wishing failure or ill-will on an event just because you don't agree 100% with the formatting or decisions is just selfish and arrogant.
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Man that's fucking disgusting, do you want players to kill themselves come on.
I think the 4 semi finalists should make a deal between them before the games to cut the money better
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All this complaining, IEM should throw a $100,000 BW winner take all Ro16 tournament, see how many people will enthusiastically show up, we can probably even get Kim Carrier and other casters / players to cast for free.
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On January 28 2014 15:38 Caihead wrote:
All this complaining, IEM should throw a $100,000 BW winner take all Ro16 tournament, see how many people will enthusiastically show up, we can probably even get Kim Carrier and other casters / players to cast for free.
People showing up enthusiastically doesn't mean it's the best it could be for the players, it just means they'll try to make the best of the opportunity...when they would probably do that anyway.
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People keep looking at how in the short term it'll have a negative effective on player sustainability when in fact this is only one tournament out of hundreds every year. I applaud iem for taking a radical step in an attempt to raise viewership and interest in sc2. Let's be honest here, sc2 viewership is trickling downwards, without strong viewership these players cannot be sustained in the long term anyway. A big prizepool to attract attention is what sc2 needs. For all those complaining, we still have many wcs events, which already allows for player sustainability.
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On January 28 2014 15:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 14:46 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 28 2014 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 28 2014 13:34 wongfeihung wrote:
I love everything about this. I have grown tired of esports causing players to be satisfied with losing, i.e. players being satisfied with placing top 32, 16, etc.
In the olden days, people played with the objective of winning and being the best. Money was just an added incentive. It used to be called competitive gaming, not esports. This tournament embodies that mindset. Yeah... Those days didn't exist. Ever. Money is what made it a professional competition, because money is what lets you dedicate your time and effort. But if you ever want to see your glory days again, feel free to watch all the low-master and diamond streams that are listed on the sidebar. uhh what? You might want to freshen up on your reading comprehension because you addressed absolutely nothing he said in his comment. What does low-master/diamond streams have to do with anything he just said? Current skill level in SC2 has grown only because of a professional scene with money. Same with basically every other competitive game that's become an E-sport. The "olden days" where being the best was everything and money was a non-factor is total fiction. If you want to see what the kind of play is like when people don't compete for money, Diamond/low-masters streams is where you'll see it; where players can't dedicate their lives, and builds and strategies that aren't refined by people that have dedicated theirs.
Nowhere does he say they were competing for no-money. He clearly says the attitude of trying to be the very best aka #1 aka Numero Uno aka World Champion was the top priority, and the money is just a bonus. If you work on your game and try to be the best there is, the money will follow that is a given. I am very confused how you are concluding mid-master/diamond league level play from the statement about trying to "be the best"?
He never mentions the skill level anywhere in that comment, it's all about the attitude and outlook. In the "olden days" when there wasn't much money to make, the best players in the world were competing and dedicating their lives to the game not for the monetary compensation, but for the recognition and satisfaction that comes with dominating everyone else and rising to the top as the very best player playing this game right now. It's the attitude from those days that this format is promoting, not the obviously lesser skill level that was on display when a game first started to when it becomes a major player in the esports community. Once again, try freshening up on those reading comprehension skills, it's a valuable asset to have these days.
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On January 28 2014 15:42 CmdBash wrote:
People keep looking at how in the short term it'll have a negative effective on player sustainability when in fact this is only one tournament out of hundreds every year. I applaud iem for taking a radical step in an attempt to raise viewership and interest in sc2. Let's be honest here, sc2 viewership is trickling downwards, without strong viewership these players cannot be sustained in the long term anyway. A big prizepool to attract attention is what sc2 needs. For all those complaining, we still have many wcs events, which already allows for player sustainability.
im going to go ahead and agree with this. I would understand that the players who are participating would definitely not like this as much, but there are many more opportunities for other players to win now. I think it'll be engaging and interesting to see a tournament like this for the first time in sc2 history for 3-4 YEARS, or at least a tournament of this high calibre
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In the long run viewership is the only thing that can sustain the players, happy to see this, very exciting.
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On January 28 2014 15:50 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 15:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 28 2014 14:46 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 28 2014 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 28 2014 13:34 wongfeihung wrote:
I love everything about this. I have grown tired of esports causing players to be satisfied with losing, i.e. players being satisfied with placing top 32, 16, etc.
In the olden days, people played with the objective of winning and being the best. Money was just an added incentive. It used to be called competitive gaming, not esports. This tournament embodies that mindset. Yeah... Those days didn't exist. Ever. Money is what made it a professional competition, because money is what lets you dedicate your time and effort. But if you ever want to see your glory days again, feel free to watch all the low-master and diamond streams that are listed on the sidebar. uhh what? You might want to freshen up on your reading comprehension because you addressed absolutely nothing he said in his comment. What does low-master/diamond streams have to do with anything he just said? Current skill level in SC2 has grown only because of a professional scene with money. Same with basically every other competitive game that's become an E-sport. The "olden days" where being the best was everything and money was a non-factor is total fiction. If you want to see what the kind of play is like when people don't compete for money, Diamond/low-masters streams is where you'll see it; where players can't dedicate their lives, and builds and strategies that aren't refined by people that have dedicated theirs. Nowhere does he say they were competing for no-money. He clearly says the attitude of trying to be the very best aka #1 aka Numero Uno aka World Champion was the top priority, and the money is just a bonus. If you work on your game and try to be the best there is, the money will follow that is a given. I am very confused how you are concluding mid-master/diamond league level play from the statement about trying to "be the best"? He never mentions the skill level anywhere in that comment, it's all about the attitude and outlook. In the "olden days" when there wasn't much money to make, the best players in the world were competing and dedicating their lives to the game not for the monetary compensation, but for the recognition and satisfaction that comes with dominating everyone else and rising to the top as the very best player playing this game right now. It's the attitude from those days that this format is promoting, not the obviously lesser skill level that was on display when a game first started to when it becomes a major player in the esports community. Once again, try freshening up on those reading comprehension skills, it's a valuable asset to have these days.
thezanursic mentions all the BW Foreigners above, which oddly shows my point a lot more than yours or wongfeihung's,
The players that didn't have monetary compensation to aim for weren't the best, or even remotely close to the best. They didn't even aim to be the very best, because the distinction between them and the Koreans was massive...why do you think everyone says "Foreigners" in the first place?
The ones that were on top, and the ones that had #1 as a serious goal, were the ones that could look forward to an actual career with actual money and incentives.
The ones who had low monetary incentives, no real salary, and only hopes of a growing industry? For them, being the best foreigner was a big deal, or beating one Korean at a WCG, or playing in a Korean tournament and not being a walkover...which, hilariously, sounds a lot like being satisfied with 32nd place.
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I like it. Change it up. The same thing all the time is boring and that's what Starcraft consists of the most. Same boring shit. LETS GET HYPE!
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On January 28 2014 15:22 Shinta) wrote:
Besides, why do so many people fail to realize that what's bad for players is also bad for tournament organizers, bad for teams, and bad for viewers.
If players can't play, then none of the others exist.
There's the flip side too; what's good for the viewers is good for the sponsors is good for teams is good for the players...
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This is great, imo. People focuse on the negative. There is $100k going to a player, and the tournament will likely be huge because of it, bringing in PR for SC2. And as stated above, $125k will already be split by players who play in the events leading up to it.
Just imagine Jaedongs face when he lifts the trophy and gets the $100k check. It will all be worth it.
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EPT
