On January 27 2014 19:13 Squat wrote: Still not the same thing. You can micro away from and kill locusts. Front loaded burst damage is way better. Swarm hosts would be shit if locusts cost minerals.
Micro away from ? Not mech. Front burst damage may be better situationally where they kill a lot but I don't remember reavers ever causing so many problems without tons of micro. Just saying a little mineral costs to be so effective isn't a bad thing.
And I'm saying it is. Mech can deal with it fine. PDD plus sieged tanks can neutralize locusts.
Reavers were cool because they were so devastating but only with good micro, so yes. Hosts are a horrible unit, but zerg has nothing else to deal with late game mech and toss.
Vipers (cloud + Abduct) + hydra?
Would still get murdered by raven heavy comps. Mass raven really is incredibly strong, hence why zerg will turtle up behind 80 spores. You have no realistic option of winning an engagement, so you have to go with attrition.
That is not true. As Zerg there's ceretainly very agressive options to employ against a Raven/Mech deathball. HOWEVER: doing so risks you to go into a war of attrition you will most probably lose. The safer way to play (you have more control over it) is to go for the war of attrition on even ground.
There are no good aggressive options vs mass raven/viking. PDD shuts down mutas/corruptors/hydras/Infesteds etc, and HSM just annihilates big blobs of units. You think zerg players want to do this? They do it because they have to. Even with way more bases, your trades will be so lopsided that you will bleed out before the terran.
Starcraft 2 uses a model imported almost directly from brood war when it comes to relative army strength. Terran and protoss have stronger maxed out end game armies than zerg, which zerg compensates for by taking more bases and producing lots of stuff at once. In BW this works, because of asymmetrical economies and slower macro, which makes it harder to reach that maxed out super army on a low base count. In SC2, you can turtle to pretty much any army comp you want on 3 bases, and be very safe in doing so. Zerg does not have the options to trade and remax in the same way, because your economy effectively caps on 3-4 bases.
As such, the only way to beat these T and P super armies is to turn it into a game of bank, not income. By mining as much of the map as you can, and ensuring that P and T cannot ever force these highly favourable direct trades, you can bleed them out, by simply taking up every scrap of resources on the map and then just sitting tight with your larger bank. See Scarlett vs QXC just this weekend for an example. Zerg cannot play the zerg style against these armies, aggression and trades do not work. The only recourse is to grind them down slowly over time, denying them the chance to ever engage you head on, unless they attack into obscene amounts of static defense. The real power of the zerg late game is the Viper and the spore, the role of the swarm host is to corral the terran army into a fixed position, from where it cannot move because it has to ward off constant waves of locusts. Once this happens zerg can set up the mass static defense and start looking for abducts.
The idea of zerg as the swarmy, aggressive race simply does not apply in the super late game.
On January 27 2014 22:30 submarine wrote: I played a little bit of Starbow yesterday and in the mod it is possible to lift sieged-up siegetanks with the dropship. This makes it possible to save siegetanks with good dropship micro. If you drop the tank afterwards it is in mobile mode again. I would love to see this mechanic in hots. This change would make tanks a little bit more mobile if you put in the effort. Good players would even be able to save a tank or two while being overrun, especially in TvZ. This would help to make marine tank medevac just a little bit better.
Sounds like a bug: that means you can do immortal/warp-prism -style micro with dropships + sieged tanks for absolutely ridiculous damage output. Just imagine this:
On January 27 2014 19:10 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand how magically after four years it's blink stalker all-ins that supposedly end up being the one unstoppable strategy.
I guess you haven´t played HotS. In HotS Protoss got this flying unit that has 14 range high ground vision and it also has a spell that creates a 9 range field, which slows down all units by 50% and it lasts 30 seconds. It also comes out of Nexus, which makes it a very small investment.
On January 27 2014 19:10 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand how magically after four years it's blink stalker all-ins that supposedly end up being the one unstoppable strategy.
I guess you haven´t played HotS. In HotS Protoss got this flying unit that has 14 range high ground vision and it also has a spell that creates a 9 range field, which slows down all units by 50% and it lasts 30 seconds. It also comes out of Nexus, which makes it a very small investment.
Not only does it slow down movement speed, it also slows down DPS for all units in the field. If the terran is at his natural, warping in the main with a time warp on the ramp => GG, pretty much.
On January 27 2014 22:59 kmh wrote: Not only does it slow down movement speed, it also slows down DPS for all units in the field. If the terran is at his natural, warping in the main with a time warp on the ramp => GG, pretty much.
On January 27 2014 22:30 submarine wrote: I played a little bit of Starbow yesterday and in the mod it is possible to lift sieged-up siegetanks with the dropship. This makes it possible to save siegetanks with good dropship micro. If you drop the tank afterwards it is in mobile mode again. I would love to see this mechanic in hots. This change would make tanks a little bit more mobile if you put in the effort. Good players would even be able to save a tank or two while being overrun, especially in TvZ. This would help to make marine tank medevac just a little bit better.
On January 27 2014 19:10 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand how magically after four years it's blink stalker all-ins that supposedly end up being the one unstoppable strategy.
I guess you haven´t played HotS. In HotS Protoss got this flying unit that has 14 range high ground vision and it also has a spell that creates a 9 range field, which slows down all units by 50% and it lasts 30 seconds. It also comes out of Nexus, which makes it a very small investment.
I haven't played HotS, so you should take what I say with a grain of salt, but I honestly think that given enough time terran players (or map makers) will find ways to address the strength of these blink builds. I don't see why Blizzard should change the game in any way. I just don't think that nine months after the release of HotS, that this build emerges as unstoppable, because in the past we've always seen the meta develop beyond that. I mean, it's a safe bet.
I don't mind photon overcharge from 60 to 50 and MsC sight range from 14 to 11. Those are minor changes that temper the rather extreme values that the MsC started out with, and I think that they would make the game feel more consistent. I don't think they're necessary to balance the game though.
On January 27 2014 22:30 submarine wrote: I played a little bit of Starbow yesterday and in the mod it is possible to lift sieged-up siegetanks with the dropship. This makes it possible to save siegetanks with good dropship micro. If you drop the tank afterwards it is in mobile mode again. I would love to see this mechanic in hots. This change would make tanks a little bit more mobile if you put in the effort. Good players would even be able to save a tank or two while being overrun, especially in TvZ. This would help to make marine tank medevac just a little bit better.
Sounds like a bug: that means you can do immortal/warp-prism -style micro with dropships + sieged tanks for absolutely ridiculous damage output. Just imagine this:
Did you even read my post? You can pick sieged up tanks up but if you unload them again they are in mobile mode. This would not be an big change. It would just make it possible to save some tanks in some situations. Right now you can't retreat without loosing all your tanks. If this simple change was integrated we would see some cool micro in certain situations. It would be a small buff especially to marine tank in TvZ. Maybe good players could use tanks a little bit more offensive without loosing all of them if they move forward just a little bit to far. It might also create certain funny situations in TvT were one player is pushing and the other player picks up tanks in the last second to redeploy them at another spot. I can not imagine that this would be IMBA. Especially if you compare it to the retreat abilities of other races.
On January 27 2014 22:30 submarine wrote: I played a little bit of Starbow yesterday and in the mod it is possible to lift sieged-up siegetanks with the dropship. This makes it possible to save siegetanks with good dropship micro. If you drop the tank afterwards it is in mobile mode again. I would love to see this mechanic in hots. This change would make tanks a little bit more mobile if you put in the effort. Good players would even be able to save a tank or two while being overrun, especially in TvZ. This would help to make marine tank medevac just a little bit better.
Sounds like a bug: that means you can do immortal/warp-prism -style micro with dropships + sieged tanks for absolutely ridiculous damage output. Just imagine this:
On January 27 2014 23:07 submarine wrote: Did you even read my post? You can pick sieged up tanks up but if you unload them again they are in mobile mode. This would not be an big change.
Ah okay, I misunderstood. I wrongly assumed they would deploy in the state you picked them up in.
On January 27 2014 19:10 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand how magically after four years it's blink stalker all-ins that supposedly end up being the one unstoppable strategy.
I guess you haven´t played HotS. In HotS Protoss got this flying unit that has 14 range high ground vision and it also has a spell that creates a 9 range field, which slows down all units by 50% and it lasts 30 seconds. It also comes out of Nexus, which makes it a very small investment.
I haven't played HotS, so you should take what I say with a grain of salt, but I honestly think that given enough time terran players (or map makers) will find ways to address the strength of these blink builds. I don't see why Blizzard should change the game in any way. I just don't think that nine months after the release of HotS, that this build emerges as unstoppable, because in the past we've always seen the meta develop beyond that. I mean, it's a safe bet.
I don't mind photon overcharge from 60 to 50 and MsC sight range from 14 to 11. Those are minor changes that temper the rather extreme values that the MsC started out with, and I think that they would make the game feel more consistent. I don't think they're necessary to balance the game though.
I dunno, a lot of the meta changes are do to balance patches... Things like Terrans moving to mech from 4M is due to mine nerf and combine upgrade buff. PvP early game stabilization is due to MSC scout and Photon overcharge. Sure, some builds do get figured out without balance changes but I would say more 'new' builds are due to changes instead of just pure meta.
The problem with map making is that the Protoss design already put a big limitation on base structure (Daedulus), having to make maps less blink friendly will pigeon hole maps even farther.
On January 27 2014 22:39 xelnaga_empire wrote: Was watching Taeja stream tonight. He was only playing Zerg and Protoss. And then he said this:
Feel so sad
It's true. Terran is bad. Have you seen Taeja own with Protoss? God he might as well switch races. Can he?
Not on his level. And beeing good on offracing on ladder doesn´t win you tournaments.
The only 2 players that switched races and had some success afterwards were Morrow and TLO and, without offense to these guys they aren´t highest level of play.
Also Terran is fine as long as you are TY, Flash, Maru or Teaja i think everyone else is just waiting for LotV or retiring.
Poll: Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25
Goes too far (699) 60%
Good change (436) 38%
Doesn't go far enough (25) 2%
Seriously? As the OP said, Hydras are a core unit in almost every match-up, but mostly ZvP. As if the inability to combat air before lair tech isn't bad enough, it's that the core AA unit is too damn expensive. I think this is a great change to ZvP, and definitely would love to see this implemented.
On January 27 2014 22:39 xelnaga_empire wrote: Was watching Taeja stream tonight. He was only playing Zerg and Protoss. And then he said this:
Feel so sad
It's true. Terran is bad. Have you seen Taeja own with Protoss? God he might as well switch races. Can he?
Not on his level. And beeing good on offracing on ladder doesn´t win you tournaments.
The only 2 players that switched races and had some success afterwards were Morrow and TLO and, without offense to these guys they aren´t highest level of play.
Also Terran is fine as long as you are TY, Flash, Maru or Teaja i think everyone else is just waiting for LotV or retiring.
TY and Flash went 0-6 vs Yonghwa in GSL. Yes, TY is wrecking in PL and Flash is holding his own. But let's see more games from them first. PL also has better maps compare to WCS and GSL. The maps are just adding insult to injury. Imagine if Protoss had to play on Daedulus in the BL-infestor era...
On January 27 2014 22:39 xelnaga_empire wrote: Was watching Taeja stream tonight. He was only playing Zerg and Protoss. And then he said this:
Feel so sad
It's true. Terran is bad. Have you seen Taeja own with Protoss? God he might as well switch races. Can he?
Not on his level. And beeing good on offracing on ladder doesn´t win you tournaments.
The only 2 players that switched races and had some success afterwards were Morrow and TLO and, without offense to these guys they aren´t highest level of play.
Also Terran is fine as long as you are TY, Flash, Maru or Teaja i think everyone else is just waiting for LotV or retiring.
Poll: Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25
Goes too far (699) 60%
Good change (436) 38%
Doesn't go far enough (25) 2%
Seriously? As the OP said, Hydras are a core unit in almost every match-up, but mostly ZvP. As if the inability to combat air before lair tech isn't bad enough, it's that the core AA unit is too damn expensive. I think this is a great change to ZvP, and definitely would love to see this implemented.
Yes, a 12 minute max on hydralisks will be totally defendable by protoss at around 120 supply, especially since you can't open robo without dying pretty much guaranteed to mutas, so they have to defend it after opening stargate.
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
They should bring back the mothership from the preview, just make it cost 1000/1000. The current one is so boring.
On January 27 2014 22:39 xelnaga_empire wrote: Was watching Taeja stream tonight. He was only playing Zerg and Protoss. And then he said this:
Feel so sad
It's true. Terran is bad. Have you seen Taeja own with Protoss? God he might as well switch races. Can he?
Not on his level. And beeing good on offracing on ladder doesn´t win you tournaments.
The only 2 players that switched races and had some success afterwards were Morrow and TLO and, without offense to these guys they aren´t highest level of play.
Also Terran is fine as long as you are TY, Flash, Maru or Teaja i think everyone else is just waiting for LotV or retiring.
Didnt Classic switch from Terran to Protoss?
Both Classic and Kal (now known as Jila) switched from Terran to Protoss, the latter just before the current proleague season began. Both are having better results since they switched.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IWkzPbb.png)
