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Starbow - Page 91

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NanashiStarCraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany48 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 15:44:53
January 19 2014 15:29 GMT
#1801
On January 18 2014 07:54 Qwyn wrote:
Hey, looks really awesome so far - I just wanted to lay down a comment on a few things.

The macro mechanics for Terran and Zerg are really, REALLY unintuitive. I'm going to thought spam here, so forgive organization:

After reading the design-group's thoughts on what they wanted to get out of macro mechanics in SB, I'm actually inclined to agree - the idea of putting in some sort of stand-in to simulate "BW style macro" involving going back to your base is a great idea. The problem with this is - in order for these mechanics to FEEL right - to FEEL like a core, essential component of each race's macro cycle - they need to perform some essential role.

In this respect - the Zerg queen's inject function has failed. Queens are of immensely more value in SC2 because a good player WILL be injecting almost constantly (watch Jaedong POV), except when they are stressed to the point where there is a cycle delay, and this does make a massive difference between player skill levels.

I've heard multiple comments from players like Blade and IdrA that the queen's "inject larva" ability in SB doesn't really seem to provide any noticeable difference - and that they are forced to build extra macro hatches anyhow. Now, I think I can very clearly understand the dynamic the design-group is reaching for and I want that too. However, disregarding all the other fluff on the queen - its core mechanic is going to always be the larva-inject ability, unless you decide to remove it and make the queen a creep-spreading/defensive tool.

Now my concerns do not revolve around fluff and cute unit dynamics. They revolve around the core of what every race is going to be doing the most - macro - and making sure that the macro dynamics for each race are DIFFICULT, yet as pleasurable as possible and INTUITIVE to use. The thing about injecting larva is that it is INTUITIVE - a hatch can only be injected once during the duration of the spawn larva ability - and when your larva round pops you can cast the ability again. If you are really good at injecting this skill level is NOTICEABLE - your queens will have no energy when you inject again.

In SB the inject function is far, far from intuitive.
1. The timer can be re-stacked, meaning that psychologically a player doesn't really have any sense of ability progress, especially when you consider the ridiculous rate at which queens regenerate energy and how little mana the spell costs.
2. The benefit of the spell is really, really unintuitive. 65% faster larva regeneration rate? Alright..interesting...in practice, though, especially with a BW style economy where build orders are much more tech oriented for Zerg in the early game and there are few, critical turning points where Zerg players really begin producing units en masse...
--- The big problem with this version of the spell is that a player has no sense of gain from using it. None at all. A secondary, far more important problem to address stemming from this is one of the core macro goals - a player should feel COMPELLED to use larva inject, IMO - a player should be able to IMPROVE their usage of larva inject - the current implementation really results in neither.

I would suggest, before anything else - reverting the spell cost back to SC2 levels and making it so only one can be stacked at a time - in addition to adjusting queen energy regen back to SC2 levels. If there is one nice dynamic you should keep for Zerg from SC2 it is how queens currently work - they feel good to use, they are intuitive, and they just make sense. Simple sense (this is completely disregarding their other spells or your implementation of creep). The % increased larva regeneration rate can be changed independently. But this, at least, solves the psychological problems of larva inject in SB.

Now as to the merits of injecting itself - I definitely agree with the fundamentals of your decision to change how the spawn-larva mechanic works. It will definitely prevent Zerg players from remaxing off of a bank of 7+ larva...on each hatchery...BUT...this doesn't really make the macro cycle for Zerg more DIFFICULT - all it does is force the player to memorize different sets of hatch counts per composition/base #. In the end, Zerg can still spam out units beyond a certain point in the game, - they just haven't gotten used to the number of required hatches yet. Substituting hatcheries for queens feels like a very inelegant decision - yes, I know it was done in BW - but in BW, races didn't have MBS, or auto-mine, and zerg hatcheries built their larva rounds instantly (all larva spent on one unit).

In BW, the base macro cycle was HARD. Really hard. It is this sort of dynamic that changes everything.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest something far more drastic. I think that you need to really, hone in on your goal of implementing some sort of macro mechanic for each race that simulates BW style "return to base macro." Something, that, like SC2 larva-inject:
1. Players are forced to use.
--- This is key. I don't think you can dither on the edge of "these macro mechanics should be optional." Making each race's macro cycle more difficult is NOT a bad thing. Not at all. Mechanics, as I hope you've realized, are what makes this game what it is. Now I get that MBS and UUS are here to stay. I'm down for that. But if you really, REALLY want to simulate BW style macro mechanics, then you're going to have to clutch your balls and implement something that is actually HARD.

2. Provides a noticeable, ESSENTIAL benefit. This might mean that such a mechanic is detrimental if not used. It might provide such a big benefit or be such a big part of play that its benefits cannot be forgone. Either one is fine. The key lies in #3.

3. Has a high, high rate of required repetition. This, more than anything else, is KEY. This is why BW macro is hard. And this is how players with outstanding MULTITASKING are able to differentiate themselves.

Now, everything else in SB seems to be converging towards design goals. More fights across the map, bigger armies, more bases, etc. But for really, really good players to differentiate themselves, you've got to extend the difficulty of the macro cycle in some way. Let's look at the BW macro cycle and how multitasking is detrimental:
1. Queue workers.
2. Select EACH INDIVIDUAL WORKER and send to mine.
#1. #2.
#1. #2.
This base macro cycle happens so OFTEN (such short period), that alone it can prove difficult. When you add in all the other tasks a player must be doing, they compound and cause major DETRIMENT. a player may forget to send workers to mine. Might forget to build workers. Which compounds to be quite sub-optimum. Now the best players, are able to mitigate economic damage by being fast enough to always do #1. #2. #1. #2. And if you are not the fastest player in the world? Well your macro may not be perfect, but at least it's pretty good! This is the same as any other mechanic - I don't know why you (or most people, if not the design-group) are afraid of making macro MECHANICALLY difficult in some fashion - it CAN be improved and MUCH of the reason of why games are so awesome is because players are not perfect.

If you really, really want to align the core of SB with the flow of a BW game (not necessarily BW units or styles, just the flow of a BW RTS style game, you know the difference, it's one of the design goals!), this is the last, most critical step.

Now as for what these, core, essential, skill differentiating macro mechanics might be, I do not know, but I have some ideas. I'm sure you probably do too. Peace <3. Love it.


I think this IS is a key post here. hopefully the devs will find some time to answer.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 16:12:56
January 19 2014 16:10 GMT
#1802
On January 20 2014 00:10 [17]Purple wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 00:01 saltis wrote:
I guess some protoss just simply miss the feeling of having "power overwhelming" army. They kinda feel "naked" and unsecured when playing without hard counters.

What do you mean? The Protoss BW army is definitely more "power overwhelming" than the SC2 when they did not have to compensate for the ridiculous power of Force Fields and the near instant reinforcement power of Warpgates. Hard counters also exist for every race, not just Protoss (in SC2).

Edit: I'd also be interested to see a map like Andromeda introduced into Starbow. I'm generally curious how mineral only expansions would impact the game.
Edit2: For maps that I would sell my soul for to see in Starbow, mine would have to be Triathlon.


We have circuit breaker which is quite similar to andromeda with a mineral only expansion.

@ wall of text.

BW macro mechanics are not that hard either. Sure it is hard to do perfectly, but the "rule" on how many hatches per base for optimal macro is not too difficult. I wish I could answer the rest of the post, but my knowledge on why the all the macro mechanics ended up the way they are is limited.

Edit: Kabel, savior of Starbow saves me Read below.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 16:41:55
January 19 2014 16:12 GMT
#1803
Regarding Marco mechanics

Macro mechanics are indeed not perfect in Starbow. But I will try to explain our reasoning behind them:

+ Show Spoiler +
They got added into the game for three main reasons:

1) Add APM and multitasking in macro by giving each race a reason to constantly go back to the base
2) Give some kind of descision making/energy management on how to use the macro mechanics
3) Give build order diversity

Lets look closer at HOW we have tried to solve this:

1). APM and multitasking

All macro mechanics are cheaper to cast and/or lasts shorter, compared to SC2. Which means they can be cast more often = it takes more APM to have "perfect" macro.

2). Descision making

Each race can use their energy on a couple of different things:
Protoss - Speed up workers or army production, upgrades, boost Cannons for extra defence or use Rift to save units.
Terran - Drop-down Workers, speed up army production, Scan for information.
Zerg - Speed up Larvas, spread Creep, Heal units or structures, speed up the morphing of structures, Enrage for defence.

In reality, it is probably most common to just spam then on worker/army production. Which is fine. But sometimes there are other reasons to do different things with the energy.

3.) Build order diversity

Each race must "unlock" their macro mechanics by puchasing some kind of structure or unit. (OC, Queen, Nexus upg)
The mechanics themselves can also be used to widen the space for different timings or build order choices, for example. devote all CB energy on Dragoon range upgrade for faster pressure, spend all Queen energy on Nurturing Swarm to get faster Lair tech etc.

"Ok, but why must the macro mechanics be so similar and boring?"

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
We are aware that one fundamental aspect of Starcraft is the uniqueness between races. But for the most part of the develoment, we have been around 10-15 active players, who playtested this on a regular basis. We wanted to establish a decent balance amoung ourselves, and for that reason, each macro mechanic became a "Chrono boost", just because it was easier to calculate the strength of them. It gave APM to macro, it felt kinda even, but the design was ofc a bit ugly. But it was playable so we settled with it, and instead moved on to other areas of the game to look at.

Partly for the same reason, we added so each race can get access to their macro mechanics kinda at the same time. Queen can be available at same time OC or upgraded Nexus can be available.

This is also why CB and Overcharge has different effects on different structures - a basic balance assumption we made, to encourage players to use them on low-tier units too, like stuff built out of the Gateway or Barrack.
<<<

Is there no way to make macro mechanics more unique?


>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Surely there are. Here are some earlier stuff we looked at:

Chrono boost - Remain as it is in terms of design.

Inject - Make each cycle "pop" a few extra larvas. Each Hatchery can maybe stack 5-7 larvas to avoid insane instant re-max situations. (Aka more SC2 style).. Probably with cheaper energy cost and shorter cooldown, so its more important to use it more often.

Terran - SCV Calldown remain as it is, and different version of Overcharge. OC can calldown a "one-time-reactor" on top of a production facility. This reactor allows two units to be built at the same time, and after they finish, the reactor is destroyed. (And can be added again via casting the spell once more..)

The later version of Overcharge feels unique, fun and more like Terran. But it was insanely hard to make it in the editor, and it would probably be hard to balance anyway.

Ofc one might argue that Overcharge at all is not needed. Which might be true. We kinda felt that with only Calldown SCV, Terran macro had a lot less things to do with the APM. Just less APM-demaning.. And we kinda want to increase the skill cap for all races in that regard.
<<<


Just some thoughts on why macro mechanics look like they do. But as usual, we intend to make the game better, and this is an area we will surely look more into.
Creator of Starbow
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
January 19 2014 16:32 GMT
#1804
The more I play Starbow, the more I'm having fun.
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
January 19 2014 17:19 GMT
#1805
God please do not go back to making us have to manual send all workers to mine, some things should just be left in the past. People are too worried about this game being easier apm wise than bw, but are forgetting that this is not bw or a remake of the game. Sc2 didn't f*** everything up, and I love the fact that some of its features have been incorporated into the game.
Liquid Fighting
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
January 19 2014 17:20 GMT
#1806
On January 20 2014 02:19 Survivor61316 wrote:
God please do not go back to making us have to manual send all workers to mine, some things should just be left in the past. People are too worried about this game being easier apm wise than bw, but are forgetting that this is not bw or a remake of the game. Sc2 didn't f*** everything up, and I love the fact that some of its features have been incorporated into the game.


I would not worry about that
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
January 19 2014 17:24 GMT
#1807
On January 19 2014 20:56 Meerel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 20:49 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:38 Meerel wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:33 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 19:59 phodacbiet wrote:
Hey, not sure if this was intended/reported before. But for some reason i can't build my hatchery here

http://imgur.com/QVXkHgf

It is not just that location but everywhere on that patch of land (basically everything in the picture is un-buildable). I also can't relocate my sunkens there, but creep tumors can still go down. Just a heads up im sure it should be an easy fix! Gl i love this mod


I believe this area is unbuildable except for creep tumors.

Also, for people who say X is streaming starbow, please send the url for people who catch the message hours later.

jap. unbuildable area, same in the middle and on the bridges

These areas need a visual feedback to show players they can't build there. Placing a lot of small rocks to simulate rocky ground should do the trick.


and you are an expert in eyecancer healing?


Players should never have to guess if they can build or walk on certain areas. If some of them even think it's a bug, there truly is a readability issue which has to be fixed. If it's not by placing tiny rocks, you have to come up with an other solution. And bw rocky ground never gave me eye cancer.
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
fmod
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Cayman Islands330 Posts
January 19 2014 17:33 GMT
#1808
How do people feel about auto split? The split at the start something small that doesn't impact the game, but yet it's awesome to see a good split by a pro player. I'd like to see it manual splitting return.
I don't particularly like you.
Dirtyharry
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Germany171 Posts
January 19 2014 17:35 GMT
#1809
On January 20 2014 02:24 Superouman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 20:56 Meerel wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:49 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:38 Meerel wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:33 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 19:59 phodacbiet wrote:
Hey, not sure if this was intended/reported before. But for some reason i can't build my hatchery here

http://imgur.com/QVXkHgf

It is not just that location but everywhere on that patch of land (basically everything in the picture is un-buildable). I also can't relocate my sunkens there, but creep tumors can still go down. Just a heads up im sure it should be an easy fix! Gl i love this mod


I believe this area is unbuildable except for creep tumors.

Also, for people who say X is streaming starbow, please send the url for people who catch the message hours later.

jap. unbuildable area, same in the middle and on the bridges

These areas need a visual feedback to show players they can't build there. Placing a lot of small rocks to simulate rocky ground should do the trick.


and you are an expert in eyecancer healing?


Players should never have to guess if they can build or walk on certain areas. If some of them even think it's a bug, there truly is a readability issue which has to be fixed. If it's not by placing tiny rocks, you have to come up with an other solution. And bw rocky ground never gave me eye cancer.

I've seen LousirA searching many times for a place where he can build his turret. It would be better if it is more visible.
I was in Ravenholm
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
January 19 2014 17:44 GMT
#1810
Another argument I keep seeing for having hard macro mechanics is that it allows the player with the best multitasking to shine. How about instead of spending that apm and attention on macro, you control your army in multiple locations? It would still allow better multitaking to be noticed and be useful. I still see too many players in this game deathballing their armies like in Sc2 when they don't have to anymore. It's much easier to disengage from a bad fight in SB and retreat, so you don't have to worry about losing half of your army just because he had everything at one position (like Sc2). Crank is the only player I've really seen taking advantage of this. He sends out goon hitsquads all over the place looking to pressure bases and take map control.
Liquid Fighting
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
January 19 2014 17:47 GMT
#1811
On January 20 2014 02:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Another argument I keep seeing for having hard macro mechanics is that it allows the player with the best multitasking to shine. How about instead of spending that apm and attention on macro, you control your army in multiple locations? It would still allow better multitaking to be noticed and be useful. I still see too many players in this game deathballing their armies like in Sc2 when they don't have to anymore. It's much easier to disengage from a bad fight in SB and retreat, so you don't have to worry about losing half of your army just because he had everything at one position (like Sc2). Crank is the only player I've really seen taking advantage of this. He sends out goon hitsquads all over the place looking to pressure bases and take map control.

People are just not good enough, there is a reason crank is the only one (not sure IF he is though!^^)
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
January 19 2014 18:41 GMT
#1812
On January 20 2014 02:24 Superouman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2014 20:56 Meerel wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:49 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:38 Meerel wrote:
On January 19 2014 20:33 Superouman wrote:
On January 19 2014 19:59 phodacbiet wrote:
Hey, not sure if this was intended/reported before. But for some reason i can't build my hatchery here

http://imgur.com/QVXkHgf

It is not just that location but everywhere on that patch of land (basically everything in the picture is un-buildable). I also can't relocate my sunkens there, but creep tumors can still go down. Just a heads up im sure it should be an easy fix! Gl i love this mod


I believe this area is unbuildable except for creep tumors.

Also, for people who say X is streaming starbow, please send the url for people who catch the message hours later.

jap. unbuildable area, same in the middle and on the bridges

These areas need a visual feedback to show players they can't build there. Placing a lot of small rocks to simulate rocky ground should do the trick.


and you are an expert in eyecancer healing?


Players should never have to guess if they can build or walk on certain areas. If some of them even think it's a bug, there truly is a readability issue which has to be fixed. If it's not by placing tiny rocks, you have to come up with an other solution. And bw rocky ground never gave me eye cancer.

Well you need to be careful while placing the agria rocks, but it can work in a large scale, you just need to have a good idea of how to do it.
That's one of the reasons why i don't quite like the texturing in FS, the theme itself is really fucking good, but FS has these areas that should be highlighted and mereel's ice theme does not quite work for these things.

Maybe using a lava set would work better for FS.
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
January 19 2014 18:45 GMT
#1813
On January 20 2014 02:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Another argument I keep seeing for having hard macro mechanics is that it allows the player with the best multitasking to shine. How about instead of spending that apm and attention on macro, you control your army in multiple locations? It would still allow better multitaking to be noticed and be useful. I still see too many players in this game deathballing their armies like in Sc2 when they don't have to anymore. It's much easier to disengage from a bad fight in SB and retreat, so you don't have to worry about losing half of your army just because he had everything at one position (like Sc2). Crank is the only player I've really seen taking advantage of this. He sends out goon hitsquads all over the place looking to pressure bases and take map control.


Imagine having hard macro mechanics and working to control your army in multiple locations. God, ahaha, love it. Yep - I suggest my idea for macro mechanics, but even if it's not implemented at all I'm still having so much fun controlling my armies the way I've always wanted to and sinking speed into it.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
saltis
Profile Joined September 2012
159 Posts
January 19 2014 19:07 GMT
#1814
What happent to the Razer tournament ? Razer stream is dead.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
January 19 2014 19:15 GMT
#1815
Razor team will only cast from round of 16.
But you can watch decemberscalm's stream, he's trying to cast some games of the tourney.
www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm
Working on Starbow!
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
January 19 2014 19:17 GMT
#1816
December is streaming here: http://www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm
Blade is streaming here: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/blade55555

Brackets here: http://bracketcloud.com/tournament/2491
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 19:30:10
January 19 2014 19:23 GMT
#1817
Great mod so far!

What I loved about brood war's interface was the cleanliness

I wish:

       -health bars (for non-selected units),
       -progress bars,
       -observers being able to select multiple units (too many circles cluttering),
       -worker count boxes,
       -and the dreaded ID showing up when you hover over a unit,

would all die so I can finally enjoy the damn graphics!

What's the point of designing and building a Ferrari and then covering it with bumper stickers?

Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 19:34:47
January 19 2014 19:34 GMT
#1818
On January 20 2014 04:23 mishimaBeef wrote:
Great mod so far!

What I loved about brood war's interface was the cleanliness

I wish:

       -health bars (for non-selected units),
       -progress bars,
       -observers being able to select multiple units (too many circles cluttering),
       -worker count boxes,
       -and the dreaded ID showing up when you hover over a unit,

would all die so I can finally enjoy the damn graphics!

What's the point of designing and building a Ferrari and then covering it with bumper stickers?


To be fair, most of those grievances can be addressed from the player/observer's end through in-game options or not using them in-game.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10011 Posts
January 19 2014 19:40 GMT
#1819
i lost vs losira ;(, sick 40 min game tho
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
January 19 2014 19:42 GMT
#1820
On January 20 2014 04:40 TT1 wrote:
i lost vs losira ;(, sick 40 min game tho


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