EPTStarbow - Page 71
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0mg_t1red
Russian Federation104 Posts
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On January 18 2014 03:27 Daralii wrote: Just to clarify something, the crux of toss design issues is the warp gate. Being able to surpass movement means the units have to be weak early, but if they're weak early the player needs to have some way to either delay or control engagements. Enter the force field. Also, how do scourge differ from banelings in that regard? I totally agree with this and have been advocating removal or alteration of warp gate since season one. Also just to add to what your'e saying @MaestroSC2 Widow mines are basically the same as spider mines given how long they take to cooldown. Banelings > see scourges, infested terrans, and spider mines Sentries > now toss has mscore, they don't need to make 8+ sentries like on WoL. Also, if you think toss aggression is weak early game think again. Oracles, blink stalkers, immortal all ins. Toss has been the king of early game aggression since WoL. Remember 2 gate zealot? 4 gates? void ray all ins? blink all in? 7 gate? 6 gate blink? soul train? prxy oracle? Nice try. WG tech makes toss literally the best race at early game aggression because it removes defenders advantage. I tried to play starbow yesterday and it was quite interesting, but I'm more interested in SC2 becoming a better game than a broodwar hybrid trying to be too much of both things and ending up with a lot of new issues. Goodluck Starbow, but hopefully only so far as to give Blizzard a good shock treatment to get their shit together. | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On January 18 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote: + Show Spoiler + Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and should have, but I'm getting a little tired of calling out the same damn "SC2 low skill cap"-bullshit time and again. The word you're looking for isn't "skill cap", no one is close to that - no one was close in BW and no one is even remotely close in Starcraft 2. It's fine if you don't like the game, but gross oversimplifications like "X ruined the game" help no one. RTS games aren't popular among anyone. It doesn't matter how hard or how easy you make it, an RTS will never be as popular as Call of Duty or League of Legends unless someone manages to redefine the entire genre. Re-skinning BW and releasing a game with an interface that is 15 years outdated and mechanics that are more likely to scare people off than make them fall in love with the game. Further, the idea that SC2 is some grand-scale version of rock-paper-scissors is also incredibly stupid and biased. People don't achieve 75-80% win rates over months-long periods in rock paper scissors After all, why do you think SC2 became so big internationally (spawning an entire (serious, I might add) international competitive scene where BW couldn't)? not going to argue with most of your post because im not a fan of wasting time... however just your last sentence, should be easy enough to argue against. Its not even comparable due to the timing. No video game had a decently sized competitive scene when BW was popular. But guess what? While no other game was supporting and keeping alive a pro-scene... BW was. When no other esport was touting year long seasons/franchises/sponsorships from major corporations, BW was. BW was still decades ahead of any other esport/competitive game comparitively. Games are only now receiving their global attention/acceptance thanks to modern media. Thanks to the existance of live streaming. These things didnt exist until recently. BW was succeeding as an Esport long before any of the things that created this global attention/focus on esports even existed. You cant compare global esport acceptance/viewership from now to 15 years ago. You cant compare the success/acceptance of SC2's competitive scene to BW by its world-wide acceptance. BW was a 15 yr old game, with a still living and thriving economy supporting its esports, no other game is even CLOSE to that. And now we are seeing the flash in the pan that was SC2. You know why it was so popular? Because it was supposed to be the successor to the most successful esport ever. BW was the proof of concept when it was 100X harder to put on competitions and share them with an audience, and prove that their can be a competitive career in video games and an ecosystem that can survive. What did it take to watch BW as an American? Being up til 4am to watch a horribly quality video on a weeknight. | ||
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0mg_t1red
Russian Federation104 Posts
On January 18 2014 03:42 fighter2_40 wrote: I totally agree with this and have been advocating removal or alteration of warp gate since season one. Also just to add to what your'e saying @MaestroSC2 Widow mines are basically the same as spider mines given how long they take to cooldown. Banelings > see scourges, infested terrans, and spider mines Sentries > now toss has mscore, they don't need to make 8+ sentries like on WoL. Also, if you think toss aggression is weak early game think again. Oracles, blink stalkers, immortal all ins. Toss has been the king of early game aggression since WoL. Remember 2 gate zealot? 4 gates? void ray all ins? blink all in? 7 gate? 6 gate blink? soul train? prxy oracle? Nice try. WG tech makes toss literally the best race at early game aggression because it removes defenders advantage. I tried to play starbow yesterday and it was quite interesting, but I'm more interested in SC2 becoming a better game than a broodwar hybrid trying to be too much of both things and ending up with a lot of new issues. Goodluck Starbow, but hopefully only so far as to give Blizzard a good shock treatment to get their shit together. very true | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 03:47 dgwow wrote: I hope TL adds a streaming sidebar for Starbow soon Maybe when there are serious tournaments and people actually know how to play it. Adding it at this point would be a little ridiculous, even though it's entertaining to watch. | ||
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JuNe-TrEe
United States27 Posts
I totally agree with this and have been advocating removal or alteration of warp gate since season one. Also just to add to what your'e saying - Widow mines are basically the same as spider mines given how long they take to cooldown. Banelings > see scourges, infested terrans, and spider mines Sentries > now toss has mscore, they don't need to make 8+ sentries like on WoL. Also, if you think toss aggression is weak early game think again. Oracles, blink stalkers, immortal all ins. Toss has been the king of early game aggression since WoL. Remember 2 gate zealot? 4 gates? void ray all ins? blink all in? 7 gate? 6 gate blink? soul train? prxy oracle? Nice try. WG tech makes toss literally the best race at early game aggression because it removes defenders advantage. I tried to play starbow yesterday and it was quite interesting, but I'm more interested in SC2 becoming a better game than a broodwar hybrid trying to be too much of both things and ending up with a lot of new issues. Goodluck Starbow, but hopefully only so far as to give Blizzard a good shock treatment to get their shit together. Your points sum up why Blizzard needs the shock treatment I am hoping they do get their stuff together or they will loose what they originally started. In the mean time I will just try to have fun with SC2 and these new games like I used to when I was playing BW. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZTpRFaVC1bM/UgyM0qTZjdI/AAAAAAAAAYc/JyJjkbO0v7k/s1600/IKM.PNG) mod motto. oh, and if you separate Starbow streams from SC2 streams, people will be less likely to click on them (just as with reddit). | ||
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C.W.
88 Posts
What's going on with SC2 is that Blizz realized BW was huge in South Korea and had potential to be another cash cow like WoW, with potentially the whole NA and EU market waiting to be monopolized with a true "next-gen" RTS. SO SC2 got made and Blizzard while still being stronk in the marketing department couldn't deliver in terms of game mechanics. They thought that leaving the gameplay will suffice and looked at popular shit like the moba-genre games, and made SC2 a bit faster than it's predecessor, and the units a little bit more heavy hitting. Problem is that nobody wanted dat shit. Competetive SC2 nowadays is stale with little room for deviation since every unit has a direct counter. Problems that those mechanics throw up cannot be solved by mere balance changes. There has to be a complete mechanics change to save sc2 by making it also accessible to the oldschool people. And this won't happen with Blizzard seemingly taking the other route of intensifying Kamehame-Ha battles between drama bitch queen Kerrigan and 2deep18u space god entities. In the wake of that thank you so much for this mod. Now I can at least spend some time on a RTS again that also feels like BW. | ||
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Romitelli
Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
SC2 failed to captivate the casual public not because of its questionable design and balance decisions. This failure was due to BNET 2.0, an UMS scene which was a huge stepback from the BW and WC3 days, the glaring shortcomings of ranked team matches, a lack of basic social features which were absent for most of the game's shelf life, the blatant smurfing, hacking and portrait farming that plagued lower leagues, and so on. Starbow cannot make up for these problems, especially with MOBA games being at their absolute prime. If it pleases the hardcore audience, awesome, but this won't be the "next dota". | ||
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C.W.
88 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:13 Romitelli wrote: Really don't get the hype train. Game is pretty polished for a beta and a fan made custom game, but people are acting like this is the second coming of Jesus. SC2 failed to captivate the casual public not because of its questionable design and balance decisions. This failure was due to BNET 2.0, an UMS scene which was a huge stepback from the BW and WC3 days, the glaring shortcomings of ranked team matches, a lack of basic social features which were absent for most of the game's shelf life, the blatant smurfing, hacking and portrait farming that plagued lower leagues, and so on. Starbow cannot make up for these problems, especially with MOBA games being at their absolute prime. If it pleases the hardcore audience, awesome, but this won't be the "next dota". By being a mod with no ranking or ladder system, by having to look up your opponents and socialize with them via channels, Starbow, without even having to play a game of it, already feels like Starcraft did in it's beginning online times. No, it won't bring SC's popularity up and save the game. But dude, it#s fun to play starcraft again. | ||
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Ahzz
Finland780 Posts
Its funny how I notice this mod and how good it looks after reminscing about broodwar, the time I played a lot, the time I used to make FPVODs. Those times were so much fun. I'll probably have to see how the genius unit design of BW transfers over to starbow though. Just LOVE the lurkers, the defilers, the science vessels, the overpowered storm.... | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:26 Ahzz wrote: This mod looks amazing. For the first time in a long time I considering on actually giving something SC related a shot! Its funny how I notice this mod and how good it looks after reminscing about broodwar, the time I played a lot, the time I used to make FPVODs. Those times were so much fun. I'll probably have to see how the genius unit design of BW transfers over to starbow though. Just LOVE the lurkers, the defilers, the science vessels, the overpowered storm.... Oh my I remember your FPVODS. I watched those so many times when i started bw always enjoyed those helped my play a lot back in those old days :D | ||
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JuNe-TrEe
United States27 Posts
This mod looks amazing. For the first time in a long time I considering on actually giving something SC related a shot! Its funny how I notice this mod and how good it looks after reminscing about broodwar, the time I played a lot, the time I used to make FPVODs. Those times were so much fun. I'll probably have to see how the genius unit design of BW transfers over to starbow though. Just LOVE the lurkers, the defilers, the science vessels, the overpowered storm.... FPVODs now those were the days. I remember the first FPVOD I saw of XD's~Grrrr... I was like oh whatttt thats how you play SC! | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
I don't think it will replace sc2 for me, but then I still enjoy sc2 (apparently I am a minority), including sc2 protoss. Overall though this is still a really cool mod and I wish it all the success in the world, rts desperately needs competition. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:11 C.W. wrote: Way back in the 90's when Blizzard came up with IP's like Warcraft, it's derivate Starcraft and Diablo the actualy gameplay, mechanics and setting were great and ahead of the rivals. That team got eventually disbanded and left because of poor personal choices within the corporation and what's left are people that try to cater with old names to the dwindling fan base with games and IP's that aren't fit to match the glory of the old games. Diablo 3 sucked, because they removed the fun aspects of the Diablo2 and got too greedy, even implementing shit like an real money auction house (wtf seriously). What's going on with SC2 is that Blizz realized BW was huge in South Korea and had potential to be another cash cow like WoW, with potentially the whole NA and EU market waiting to be monopolized with a true "next-gen" RTS. SO SC2 got made and Blizzard while still being stronk in the marketing department couldn't deliver in terms of game mechanics. They thought that leaving the gameplay will suffice and looked at popular shit like the moba-genre games, and made SC2 a bit faster than it's predecessor, and the units a little bit more heavy hitting. Problem is that nobody wanted dat shit. Competetive SC2 nowadays is stale with little room for deviation since every unit has a direct counter. Problems that those mechanics throw up cannot be solved by mere balance changes. There has to be a complete mechanics change to save sc2 by making it also accessible to the oldschool people. And this won't happen with Blizzard seemingly taking the other route of intensifying Kamehame-Ha battles between drama bitch queen Kerrigan and 2deep18u space god entities. In the wake of that thank you so much for this mod. Now I can at least spend some time on a RTS again that also feels like BW. Everything you say here is opinion and yours is worth just as much as mine. Honestly, I like Diablo 3 and I like Starcraft 2. I think they are both fun to play. If you like Starbow, that's great too. | ||
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GoShox
United States1847 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:26 Ahzz wrote: This mod looks amazing. For the first time in a long time I considering on actually giving something SC related a shot! Its funny how I notice this mod and how good it looks after reminscing about broodwar, the time I played a lot, the time I used to make FPVODs. Those times were so much fun. I'll probably have to see how the genius unit design of BW transfers over to starbow though. Just LOVE the lurkers, the defilers, the science vessels, the overpowered storm.... I remember you!  It's so cool to see so many players from the past coming back for this.I will admit, yesterday was the first time in a long time that I was really excited to come home from work and play Starcraft. This game is just fun. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:39 Green_25 wrote: The game seems fun, I like the different economics and macro mechanics. I don't think it will replace sc2 for me, but then I still enjoy sc2 (apparently I am a minority), including sc2 protoss. Overall though this is still a really cool mod and I wish it all the success in the world, rts desperately needs competition. Your the minority in this thread, but there are plenty of people still plugging away at SC2. Just keep hitting that ladder button and have fun. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:13 Romitelli wrote: Really don't get the hype train. Game is pretty polished for a beta and a fan made custom game, but people are acting like this is the second coming of Jesus. SC2 failed to captivate the casual public not because of its questionable design and balance decisions. This failure was due to BNET 2.0, an UMS scene which was a huge stepback from the BW and WC3 days, the glaring shortcomings of ranked team matches, a lack of basic social features which were absent for most of the game's shelf life, the blatant smurfing, hacking and portrait farming that plagued lower leagues, and so on. Starbow cannot make up for these problems, especially with MOBA games being at their absolute prime. If it pleases the hardcore audience, awesome, but this won't be the "next dota". I think questionable game design and balance is a major reason why sc2 is losing popularity.. I know I stopped playing ladder because TvP is broken and is absolutely no fun to play. I don't even watch pro players play that MU anymore. Getting out of the lower leagues is such a challenge because of all the hard counters and such things (i.e. game design) that most people dont even try. | ||
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