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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:19 iHirO wrote: Scout, Think, Assess, Respond, Build, Organise and Win. The S.T.A.R.B.O.W way. Just gonna throw this out there, thats how you play any RTS. | ||
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Ahzz
Finland780 Posts
On January 18 2014 05:56 Hider wrote: We removed two upgrades in the most recent patch. I think Vipers Consume should probably also be removed. Defiler probably a bit too good atm. to give them Consume for free, but I think we may take a look at the strenght Plague and especially Dark Swarm. If these abilities are a bit weaker, then Consume could income come for free as well. I have not played the mod yet, but I was not that far from GM in SC2 at my best, and I was A- iccup before SC2 got released, I have a ton of experience with the units, strategies and the way the game plays out. That being said, what you say really scares me. Try to avoid going that route very very much please. Let me explain why: A) The thing that made BW so magical is the fact that each race was equipped with ridiculously overpowered units that could massacre legions of badly placed or controlled units. How retarded does it sound that irradiate destroys anything zerg, and with proper control there is nothing to stop it? How can a game with a spell like dark swarm even exist? Nigh unkillable zerg units, structures are useless, what is this crap? Don't even get me started with psionic storm! Destroys anything and everything with ONLY 75 mana, after which you can morph HT's to archons. WHAAAT. My point is, each race has their own overpowered units, and thus what may sound ridiculously strong at first, in reality, isn't such unless the game has already been over for a long long time. B) Let's observe at the example you give: You consider that defiler dark swarm and plague may be too strong. True, they need consume and plague tech most of the time, but the spells are very strong atm. However, let's not forget some key points, which should ALWAYS be remembered when FIGHTING against defilers in BW: 1) Defilers are hive tech. It takes a long time to get there, and if you rush hive tech, you most likely give up much of your map control because your army isnt as strong. Also, lurkers dont seem to be as strong as they were in BW because units are more spread out when they move unlike BW. 2) When the zerg is nearing hive tech, if you aren't on the map making things hard for the zerg, its your fault and the game is over. Yes, the game is gg if you are walled in your base and he comes with lurkers and defilers. The game is NOT over if he has all that in his OWN choke. Force the zerg to take fights and spend his defiler mana all over the map in situations where you cannot be cornered, don't get backed to a corner! 3) The defilers are incredibly weak as themselves, and in BW the terran should be irradiating the defilers so that they are forced to spend their mana at low priority targets and locations so that they aren't going to complete waste. Also, don't forget that defilers cost a ton of gas to make, being that they are nearly as expensive for zerg as ultras! (gas is way more important to zerg than minerals) 4) Even if we look outside of ZvT, into ZvP, we can notice that protoss has reavers, zealots and archons that are excellent vs dark swarm. At hive tech and plague tech, protoss has shields and his army should be by large archons and high templars, so plague isnt as strong. Most of all, psionic storm still rips any zerg units inside dark swarm to shreds except ultras, so protoss doesnt even need as much territory placement as terran does. Finally, I want to conclude with a few points. I know that this mod isnt meant to be Brood war. and it's not meant to be SC2. And I have not played the mod yet. Even so, I'm saying that you should be very careful when approaching the nerf bat for the core units that made BW so exceptional. Miraculous comebacks have been made through them, and they are a staple of excellent unit design. It is, however, very easy to interpret something as 'too strong' when in reality all you are seeing is lack of adaptation from the other side and situations where the other player was just far stronger in general. If you have considered the points I said and still think it needs a bit of a nerf, go ahead, I trust your judgement because so far it has been pretty damn good as far as I can see. But things often aren't black and white, and I am intrigued by this mod BECAUSE it has these same, ridiculously overpowered units that I happened to love, and because it has the same strong economy system that should be core in all RTS | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
also, that person who said that removing upgrades and stuff would add more depth...wtf? adding shit and keeping stuff can add more depth too, usually MORE. amazing i know. edit: I really hope starbow does well, and I hope it does not stagnate like SC2. I hope it becomes what SC2 should have really been, a true successor to BW. imo, a true successor to BW would keep the core of BW, but simply add more units and abilities that translate into more strategies that can be placed on top of current BW play. BW has been out for such a long time, the game has a solid predictable metagame. I think it would be wonderful if there were more strategies that you can do in BW ZvP, etc. That is why I hope SB does this. BW play is awesome, that is why it is so successful. But also add new strats that are JUSt as viable and simply give players more cards to play with. Focus on this, and you cannot make a bad game. However, I do understand how difficult it would be to simply add stuff and hope it is not too overpowered and thus making all BW strats or SC2 strats void. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:37 Golgotha wrote: i hope the mods are listening to top tier players in both sc2 and bw. not just random people who say "remove this and remove that". Like ahzz, i do not understand why you would make dark swarm or plague weaker... also, that person who said that removing upgrades and stuff would add more depth...wtf? adding shit and keeping stuff can add more depth too, usually MORE. amazing i know. The problem is smartcasting, powerfull spells get abused easily with smartcasting. The only reason the spells in sc2 got nerfed over and over again is that they are easy to use, the same is true for starbow right now. | ||
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HolydaKing
21253 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:37 Golgotha wrote: i hope the mods are listening to top tier players in both sc2 and bw. not just random people who say "remove this and remove that". Like ahzz, i do not understand why you would make dark swarm or plague weaker... also, that person who said that removing upgrades and stuff would add more depth...wtf? adding shit and keeping stuff can add more depth too, usually MORE. amazing i know. I doubt many people already play Starbow well enough to talk about nerfing stuff. When really good players play the game for like 1-2 months then you can see what's imba and what not. It's really not that easy to say something is too weak because you didn't make it work. | ||
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HystericaLaughter
Australia720 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:37 Golgotha wrote: i hope the mods are listening to top tier players in both sc2 and bw. not just random people who say "remove this and remove that". Like ahzz, i do not understand why you would make dark swarm or plague weaker... also, that person who said that removing upgrades and stuff would add more depth...wtf? adding shit and keeping stuff can add more depth too, usually MORE. amazing i know. Are you referring to me? I was the guy talking about depth, but I said that removing upgrades would reduce complexity, not add depth. Of course it doesn't and I'm not sure how you drew that meaning. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:42 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is smartcasting, powerfull spells get abused easily with smartcasting. The only reason the spells in sc2 got nerfed over and over again is that they are easy to use, the same is true for starbow right now. But smartcasting is something that is not unique to one race. Everyone can smart cast. Yes, I see how much easier it would be to storm the shit out of your enemy or have perfect swarms, but the other player can do so as well and retaliate in turn. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:46 HystericaLaughter wrote: Are you referring to me? I was the guy talking about depth, but I said that removing upgrades would reduce complexity, not add depth. Of course it doesn't and I'm not sure how you drew that meaning. easy. i can read english. + Show Spoiler + It feels cluttered. I think removing some of these in the interests of simplicity would better enable greater depth to the game. If this is you, yes, i am referring to you. | ||
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Season
United States301 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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samwise1993
15 Posts
But what i have noticed is that some units just have more interesting designs and also some tech structures are much more valuable / better integrated in the game than in sc2 . As an example i would take the fusion core and the bc . To say it short the bc is just awesome in starbow i really like the changed dmg output with lower rof but higher dmg ( not to mention warp drive! - its awesome ) and i also do like that bio upgrades require the fusion core which just leads to an earlier acces to bcs and therefore u can use it more often. instead of integrating things from sc2 into this mod blizzard should take a look at this mod and do it the other way arround to bring the cool and useful things into sc2 | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:50 Golgotha wrote: easy. i can read english. + Show Spoiler + It feels cluttered. I think removing some of these in the interests of simplicity would better enable greater depth to the game. If this is you, yes, i am referring to you. No, that was me. And removing clutter (abilities and upgrades that appear to be there just for the sake of it) would enable more depth and complexity. I don't think people should confuse simplicity with shallowness. Just having more stuff to do does not mean better things to do. That said, the SB team should take their own time over patches rather than kowtow to all opinion. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Turtled for 25 minutes. A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall Won. Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2. I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale. Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears. That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. | ||
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nukkuj
Finland403 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 18 2014 06:25 Ahzz wrote: I have not played the mod yet, but I was not that far from GM in SC2 at my best, and I was A- iccup before SC2 got released, I have a ton of experience with the units, strategies and the way the game plays out. That being said, what you say really scares me. Try to avoid going that route very very much please. Let me explain why: A) The thing that made BW so magical is the fact that each race was equipped with ridiculously overpowered units that could massacre legions of badly placed or controlled units. How retarded does it sound that irradiate destroys anything zerg, and with proper control there is nothing to stop it? How can a game with a spell like dark swarm even exist? Nigh unkillable zerg units, structures are useless, what is this crap? Don't even get me started with psionic storm! Destroys anything and everything with ONLY 75 mana, after which you can morph HT's to archons. WHAAAT. My point is, each race has their own overpowered units, and thus what may sound ridiculously strong at first, in reality, isn't such unless the game has already been over for a long long time. B) Let's observe at the example you give: You consider that defiler dark swarm and plague may be too strong. True, they need consume and plague tech most of the time, but the spells are very strong atm. However, let's not forget some key points, which should ALWAYS be remembered when FIGHTING against defilers in BW: 1) Defilers are hive tech. It takes a long time to get there, and if you rush hive tech, you most likely give up much of your map control because your army isnt as strong. Also, lurkers dont seem to be as strong as they were in BW because units are more spread out when they move unlike BW. 2) When the zerg is nearing hive tech, if you aren't on the map making things hard for the zerg, its your fault and the game is over. Yes, the game is gg if you are walled in your base and he comes with lurkers and defilers. The game is NOT over if he has all that in his OWN choke. Force the zerg to take fights and spend his defiler mana all over the map in situations where you cannot be cornered, don't get backed to a corner! 3) The defilers are incredibly weak as themselves, and in BW the terran should be irradiating the defilers so that they are forced to spend their mana at low priority targets and locations so that they aren't going to complete waste. Also, don't forget that defilers cost a ton of gas to make, being that they are nearly as expensive for zerg as ultras! (gas is way more important to zerg than minerals) 4) Even if we look outside of ZvT, into ZvP, we can notice that protoss has reavers, zealots and archons that are excellent vs dark swarm. At hive tech and plague tech, protoss has shields and his army should be by large archons and high templars, so plague isnt as strong. Most of all, psionic storm still rips any zerg units inside dark swarm to shreds except ultras, so protoss doesnt even need as much territory placement as terran does. Finally, I want to conclude with a few points. I know that this mod isnt meant to be Brood war. and it's not meant to be SC2. And I have not played the mod yet. Even so, I'm saying that you should be very careful when approaching the nerf bat for the core units that made BW so exceptional. Miraculous comebacks have been made through them, and they are a staple of excellent unit design. It is, however, very easy to interpret something as 'too strong' when in reality all you are seeing is lack of adaptation from the other side and situations where the other player was just far stronger in general. If you have considered the points I said and still think it needs a bit of a nerf, go ahead, I trust your judgement because so far it has been pretty damn good as far as I can see. But things often aren't black and white, and I am intrigued by this mod BECAUSE it has these same, ridiculously overpowered units that I happened to love, and because it has the same strong economy system that should be core in all RTS Unfortunately as Viper pointed out there's just nothing miraculous about Tab G click G click G click.is it very strong? Absolutely. Does it reward skill? No, its SC2's "AMAZING FUNGALS" all over again. The only real option, and I don't count nixing smartcast, is to add new creative ways to have that miraculous play that smartcast cant negate. I think the designers are totally on the right track with the manual spider mines, and I'd love to see more stuff like that in the game. That's the Plague you're looking for. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote: Played starbow Turtled for 25 minutes. A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall Won. Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2. I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale. Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears. That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
MarineKing Sage Lzgamer Drunkenboi Goody Sasquatch Catz Dragon Luckyfool BeastyQT Avilo Lalush Daisy Tassadar TTOne Keep in mind that signups are not finished, there are barcodes and some people may not be who they say they are, but most likely it's fairly accurate. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote: It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. You could absolutely turtle and a move to victory in broodwar. Low level BW wasn't all that different from low level Starbow or Low level SC2 | ||
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PedroBlanco
Canada65 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
The macro mechanics for Terran and Zerg are really, REALLY unintuitive. I'm going to thought spam here, so forgive organization: After reading the design-group's thoughts on what they wanted to get out of macro mechanics in SB, I'm actually inclined to agree - the idea of putting in some sort of stand-in to simulate "BW style macro" involving going back to your base is a great idea. The problem with this is - in order for these mechanics to FEEL right - to FEEL like a core, essential component of each race's macro cycle - they need to perform some essential role. In this respect - the Zerg queen's inject function has failed. Queens are of immensely more value in SC2 because a good player WILL be injecting almost constantly (watch Jaedong POV), except when they are stressed to the point where there is a cycle delay, and this does make a massive difference between player skill levels. I've heard multiple comments from players like Blade and IdrA that the queen's "inject larva" ability in SB doesn't really seem to provide any noticeable difference - and that they are forced to build extra macro hatches anyhow. Now, I think I can very clearly understand the dynamic the design-group is reaching for and I want that too. However, disregarding all the other fluff on the queen - its core mechanic is going to always be the larva-inject ability, unless you decide to remove it and make the queen a creep-spreading/defensive tool. Now my concerns do not revolve around fluff and cute unit dynamics. They revolve around the core of what every race is going to be doing the most - macro - and making sure that the macro dynamics for each race are DIFFICULT, yet as pleasurable as possible and INTUITIVE to use. The thing about injecting larva is that it is INTUITIVE - a hatch can only be injected once during the duration of the spawn larva ability - and when your larva round pops you can cast the ability again. If you are really good at injecting this skill level is NOTICEABLE - your queens will have no energy when you inject again. In SB the inject function is far, far from intuitive. 1. The timer can be re-stacked, meaning that psychologically a player doesn't really have any sense of ability progress, especially when you consider the ridiculous rate at which queens regenerate energy and how little mana the spell costs. 2. The benefit of the spell is really, really unintuitive. 65% faster larva regeneration rate? Alright..interesting...in practice, though, especially with a BW style economy where build orders are much more tech oriented for Zerg in the early game and there are few, critical turning points where Zerg players really begin producing units en masse... --- The big problem with this version of the spell is that a player has no sense of gain from using it. None at all. A secondary, far more important problem to address stemming from this is one of the core macro goals - a player should feel COMPELLED to use larva inject, IMO - a player should be able to IMPROVE their usage of larva inject - the current implementation really results in neither. I would suggest, before anything else - reverting the spell cost back to SC2 levels and making it so only one can be stacked at a time - in addition to adjusting queen energy regen back to SC2 levels. If there is one nice dynamic you should keep for Zerg from SC2 it is how queens currently work - they feel good to use, they are intuitive, and they just make sense. Simple sense (this is completely disregarding their other spells or your implementation of creep). The % increased larva regeneration rate can be changed independently. But this, at least, solves the psychological problems of larva inject in SB. Now as to the merits of injecting itself - I definitely agree with the fundamentals of your decision to change how the spawn-larva mechanic works. It will definitely prevent Zerg players from remaxing off of a bank of 7+ larva...on each hatchery...BUT...this doesn't really make the macro cycle for Zerg more DIFFICULT - all it does is force the player to memorize different sets of hatch counts per composition/base #. In the end, Zerg can still spam out units beyond a certain point in the game, - they just haven't gotten used to the number of required hatches yet. Substituting hatcheries for queens feels like a very inelegant decision - yes, I know it was done in BW - but in BW, races didn't have MBS, or auto-mine, and zerg hatcheries built their larva rounds instantly (all larva spent on one unit). In BW, the base macro cycle was HARD. Really hard. It is this sort of dynamic that changes everything. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest something far more drastic. I think that you need to really, hone in on your goal of implementing some sort of macro mechanic for each race that simulates BW style "return to base macro." Something, that, like SC2 larva-inject: 1. Players are forced to use. --- This is key. I don't think you can dither on the edge of "these macro mechanics should be optional." Making each race's macro cycle more difficult is NOT a bad thing. Not at all. Mechanics, as I hope you've realized, are what makes this game what it is. Now I get that MBS and UUS are here to stay. I'm down for that. But if you really, REALLY want to simulate BW style macro mechanics, then you're going to have to clutch your balls and implement something that is actually HARD. 2. Provides a noticeable, ESSENTIAL benefit. This might mean that such a mechanic is detrimental if not used. It might provide such a big benefit or be such a big part of play that its benefits cannot be forgone. Either one is fine. The key lies in #3. 3. Has a high, high rate of required repetition. This, more than anything else, is KEY. This is why BW macro is hard. And this is how players with outstanding MULTITASKING are able to differentiate themselves. Now, everything else in SB seems to be converging towards design goals. More fights across the map, bigger armies, more bases, etc. But for really, really good players to differentiate themselves, you've got to extend the difficulty of the macro cycle in some way. Let's look at the BW macro cycle and how multitasking is detrimental: 1. Queue workers. 2. Select EACH INDIVIDUAL WORKER and send to mine. #1. #2. #1. #2. This base macro cycle happens so OFTEN (such short period), that alone it can prove difficult. When you add in all the other tasks a player must be doing, they compound and cause major DETRIMENT. a player may forget to send workers to mine. Might forget to build workers. Which compounds to be quite sub-optimum. Now the best players, are able to mitigate economic damage by being fast enough to always do #1. #2. #1. #2. And if you are not the fastest player in the world? Well your macro may not be perfect, but at least it's pretty good! This is the same as any other mechanic - I don't know why you (or most people, if not the design-group) are afraid of making macro MECHANICALLY difficult in some fashion - it CAN be improved and MUCH of the reason of why games are so awesome is because players are not perfect. If you really, really want to align the core of SB with the flow of a BW game (not necessarily BW units or styles, just the flow of a BW RTS style game, you know the difference, it's one of the design goals!), this is the last, most critical step. Now as for what these, core, essential, skill differentiating macro mechanics might be, I do not know, but I have some ideas. I'm sure you probably do too. Peace <3. Love it. | ||
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