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On January 18 2014 06:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 06:37 Golgotha wrote:
i hope the mods are listening to top tier players in both sc2 and bw. not just random people who say "remove this and remove that". Like ahzz, i do not understand why you would make dark swarm or plague weaker...
also, that person who said that removing upgrades and stuff would add more depth...wtf? adding shit and keeping stuff can add more depth too, usually MORE. amazing i know. The problem is smartcasting, powerfull spells get abused easily with smartcasting. The only reason the spells in sc2 got nerfed over and over again is that they are easy to use, the same is true for starbow right now.
The problem was more that people were lazy and let the game move their whole army, which resulted in disaster when facing AoE damage. And now healing is to strong, so that you either defeat an army or have everything that survives at full health the net time you engage. (except you face mech)
It might not be lazyness but the game just being to fast, which is why people might like the slower starbow. Because it doesn't equalize easier control with increased speed.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making.
I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is, and there were definetly optimal builds in all match-ups. It's not just one or the other.
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On January 18 2014 08:02 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is. It's not just one or the other.
True, but the main difference is that BW changes constantly without Blizzard patching it. If you think BW is stupid and boring, thats entirely subjective. You may like it or hate it. I think sc2 is the most retarded RTS I ever played and I am quite disappointed by Blizzard to release such a horrible expansion like HotS. But at least I have played 1000+ games on it to judge it and not 1 game with camping and mass carriers before coming to this conclusion that every games will play out the same way.
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Is there a bug where if one lurker is on hold, all of them are?
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On January 18 2014 08:02 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is. It's not just one or the other.
SC2 definitely is changing (especially ZvT, wowzers), but what I like the most about SB is that...if all MUs in Sc2 could just be aligned to have a similiar flow to say, TvT, or ZvT, then the game would be incredible. IMO most problems are Protoss related. And the awesome thing about SB is that it removes the Protoss problem units and...magically most match-ups begin to adopt a better, more exciting gameflow. Why? Because suddenly the full extent of RTS strategies and tactics can be adopted in all the XvP matchups coupled with powerful mechanics...instead of being limited by...problem units...
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On January 18 2014 08:07 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 08:02 Zealously wrote:On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is. It's not just one or the other. True, but the main difference is that BW changes constantly without Blizzard patching it. If you think BW is stupid and boring, thats entirely subjective. You may like it or hate it. I think sc2 is the most retarded RTS I ever played and I am quite disappointed by Blizzard to release such a horrible expansion like HotS. But at least I have played 1000+ games on it to judge it and not 1 game with camping and mass carriers before coming to this conclusion that every games will play out the same way.
You didn't actually read what he said. He did not say BW is Stupid and Boring only that there are there are some stupid and boring things in the game.
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On January 18 2014 08:10 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 08:07 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 08:02 Zealously wrote:On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is. It's not just one or the other. True, but the main difference is that BW changes constantly without Blizzard patching it. If you think BW is stupid and boring, thats entirely subjective. You may like it or hate it. I think sc2 is the most retarded RTS I ever played and I am quite disappointed by Blizzard to release such a horrible expansion like HotS. But at least I have played 1000+ games on it to judge it and not 1 game with camping and mass carriers before coming to this conclusion that every games will play out the same way. You didn't actually read what he said. He did not say BW is Stupid and Boring only that there are there are some stupid and boring things in the game.
My bad.
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I am liking all of the feedback the devs are getting, it is going to be a lot of work to synthesize it into a better product. Hopefully they can have a close circle of advisors from people in who's feedback they really trust in whom they confide regularly.
Like some people protested, I agree that things considered imbalanced should not be nerfed if it turns the game into stale and predictable. The best thing the devs can hope for is things that are imbalanced by players with higher levels of skill and not by lesser players, so that the best players of every race can dominate like they did in BW.
By making tweaks to make some of the less entertaining matchups more fun to watch than their BW counterparts, and taking steps to ensure that the games are not slow to start off, especially in the hands of skilled players, I think Starbow will definitely be on the right track.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 08:07 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 08:02 Zealously wrote:On January 18 2014 07:44 404AlphaSquad wrote:On January 18 2014 07:39 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Played starbow
Turtled for 25 minutes.
A+clicked with my carrier DeathBall
Won.
Replace carrier for colossi and its very similar to sc2.
I'm not saying it's not good, i like starbow a lot, but people have such unrealistic expectations. Starbow will have turtle, and all ins, and an "optimal" build that everyone will come and the game will get stale.
Its a good mod, and i hope it succeeds but i think a lot of people will be let down once the optimal and standar builds appears.
That was the case with HotS, in the beta it was all nice, once the game was released, well you know where it ended up. It wasnt like that in bw. BW is changing even now 15 years after its release. So you played 1 low skill game of starbow and you come to this conclusion. Thats not really a point you are making. I would like to point out that there was some pretty stupid and boring shit in Brood War, and that SC2 is changing just as Brood War is. It's not just one or the other. True, but the main difference is that BW changes constantly without Blizzard patching it. If you think BW is stupid and boring, thats entirely subjective. You may like it or hate it. I think sc2 is the most retarded RTS I ever played and I am quite disappointed by Blizzard to release such a horrible expansion like HotS. But at least I have played 1000+ games on it to judge it and not 1 game with camping and mass carriers before coming to this conclusion that every games will play out the same way.
I think I've watched a couple of hundred hours of Brood War altogether and I'll willingly admit that the game had greater diversity than Starcraft II has at the moment. But I am not saying that BW is stupid and boring, I think it's a great game (though I do prefer SC2), but things like 2 base carrier abuse on Katrina and the like, that was some serious bullshit.
Don't get me wrong, you shouldn't judge a mod after playing a single game, but I just hope people remember that, when comparing Starbow to SC2 and BW, they both have their ups and downs. Sometimes people (unreasonably so) put BW on a pedestal which isn't helpful for quality in the long run.
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Im sure the question im about to ask has been asked before in this thread, however i cannot open all pages of the thread and search for it (why is the feature to open and view all threadpages at the same time enabled sometimes while it isnt at other times anyways?).
Why does protoss have both the stalker and the dragoon? Is the stalker in starbow significantly weaker than the dragoon in straight up DPS/toughness, while it compensates for this by having blink? Or are they equally good in straight up combat while the stalker costs significantly more given its blink abillity?
I just think it would be cooler if protoss only had the dragoon and not also the stalker in Starbow, the dragoon deserves to have that central role, no stalker should be needed when the dragoon option is there. Also the stalker just looks really ugly. Im a "sc2 fanboy" but i have always thought that the stalker design is really ugly.
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On January 18 2014 08:16 Ovi wrote:
Im sure the question im about to ask has been asked before in this thread, however i cannot open all pages of the thread and search for it (why is the feature to open and view all threadpages at the same time enabled sometimes while it isnt at other times anyways?).
Why does protoss have both the stalker and the dragoon? Is the stalker in starbow significantly weaker than the dragoon in straight up DPS/toughness, while it compensates for this by having blink? Or are they equally good in straight up combat while the stalker costs significantly more given its blink abillity?
I just think it would be cooler if protoss only had the dragoon and not also the stalker in Starbow, the dragoon deserves to have that central role, no stalker should be needed when the dragoon option is there. Also the stalker just looks really ugly. Im a "sc2 fanboy" but i have always thought that the stalker design is really ugly.
The Stalker is more of a harassing unit. It's cheap and very, very weak. It seems like its use is to blink up cliffs and kill workers, maybe pick off Zerglings, stuff like that. I don't think they're terrible against Mutas either. In a straight up fight, they lose almost anything. They're no replacement for Dragoons and if Dragoons fight Stalkers straight up, the Dragoons absolutely crush them.
I'm not saying Stalkers are bad. I think it's a good thing they're not strong because the game would be a bit odd if Dragoons and Stalkers were both viable in every situation. Stalkers definitely have their uses though
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The Dragoon is definitely the "core" unit and have the central role.
We actually only had the stalker for the longest time as the core unit but it was problematic. It had to be strong, since there were no force fields, but they were also mobile with blink. It turned into "only make stalkers" protoss, which was lame. After the goon switch we tried to give the stalker a new and unique role. Not it is the "mutalisk" of protoss. Light, fast, agile, but low hp. It can dart in, snipe and dart out again. It cannot be too strong because Starbow is a much more positional game than SC2 and any unit who abuses terrain (blink, reapers etc...) has to be a bit weaker in Starbow compared to SC2
There are probably other stuff I am forgetting. Remember, 2 years of development. We don't all remember every phase and reason for every thing that this mod has gone through. Hope it answered your question though.
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On January 18 2014 08:16 Ovi wrote:
Im sure the question im about to ask has been asked before in this thread, however i cannot open all pages of the thread and search for it (why is the feature to open and view all threadpages at the same time enabled sometimes while it isnt at other times anyways?).
Why does protoss have both the stalker and the dragoon? Is the stalker in starbow significantly weaker than the dragoon in straight up DPS/toughness, while it compensates for this by having blink? Or are they equally good in straight up combat while the stalker costs significantly more given its blink abillity?
I just think it would be cooler if protoss only had the dragoon and not also the stalker in Starbow, the dragoon deserves to have that central role, no stalker should be needed when the dragoon option is there. Also the stalker just looks really ugly. Im a "sc2 fanboy" but i have always thought that the stalker design is really ugly.
It was explained quite a few times - while dragoons perform well against armored units, stalkers are good against light. Dragoons are not optimal against light and same can be said about stalkers/armoured. Also, since stalkers start with blink, they can see up cliffs and they have blink upgrade available, their purpose is very close to that of mutalisk. They are not flying though :p
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On January 18 2014 08:16 Ovi wrote:
Im sure the question im about to ask has been asked before in this thread, however i cannot open all pages of the thread and search for it (why is the feature to open and view all threadpages at the same time enabled sometimes while it isnt at other times anyways?).
Why does protoss have both the stalker and the dragoon? Is the stalker in starbow significantly weaker than the dragoon in straight up DPS/toughness, while it compensates for this by having blink? Or are they equally good in straight up combat while the stalker costs significantly more given its blink abillity?
I just think it would be cooler if protoss only had the dragoon and not also the stalker in Starbow, the dragoon deserves to have that central role, no stalker should be needed when the dragoon option is there. Also the stalker just looks really ugly. Im a "sc2 fanboy" but i have always thought that the stalker design is really ugly.
I completely disagree with the sentiment that the Stalker is ugly, I think it is one of the coolest looking units in the entire game.
On the topic of the differences with the Dragoon and Stalker however, the Dragoon is considered the bulky unit used in army engagements while the Stalker is relegated to a harassment role likened to Mutalisks and is most useful when combating Mutalisk play without needing to resort to Stargate. It is also interesting to note the damage type differences between the Stalker and Dragoon as the Dragoon uses the Explosive damage typing that deals 100% damage on Armoured units while dealing only 50% damage on light. Stalkers have a unique Plasma damage typing that deals 150% damage on light units making it particularly effective in its role.
Another note about the Stalker is that it is useful when trying to circumvent the high ground advantage of enemy players as while running dragoons onto a ramp is usually suicidal, a blink can save you the hassle of dealing with high ground advantage.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 18 2014 08:16 Ovi wrote:
Im sure the question im about to ask has been asked before in this thread, however i cannot open all pages of the thread and search for it (why is the feature to open and view all threadpages at the same time enabled sometimes while it isnt at other times anyways?).
If a thread has more than 50 pages, the "All" function is disabled (except for staff members and maybe people with TL+?)
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Zerg is so imba versus Toss in this mod it isn't even funny, Storm and Reaver are terrible compared to their BW counterparts and Hydras are better than their BW counterparts. Fix please.
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I am wondering if have thought of incorporating Starbow into a 1v1 OBS mod such as Peepmode? Perhaps they could work with you to incorporate this. It will definitely be easier to do so when the Extension Mod feature comes out in Patch 2.1
This would definitely help bring Starbow into popularity in the Arcade section and with non-TLers; I remember the 1v1 OBS mod used to be really popular when I played it, and you could possibly even have them incorporate their ranking system with the mod.
Additionally, there isnt much of a place to watch people play Starbow games besides the few streamers on TL. Having an OBS mod for it would help in this aspect, and it's obviously more fun to OBS in game than through streams.
At the moment you tell people to join games through the Starbow channel but for people who aren't aware of this, the OBS mod would probably help out.
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On January 18 2014 08:27 Arco wrote:
Zerg is so imba versus Toss in this mod it isn't even funny, Storm and Reaver are terrible compared to their BW counterparts and Hydras are better than their BW counterparts. Fix please.
nope, you are just bad~~ (sorry, couldn't help it. whining about imbalance in a game without any real strategies discovered is just weird).
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On January 18 2014 08:32 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 08:27 Arco wrote:
Zerg is so imba versus Toss in this mod it isn't even funny, Storm and Reaver are terrible compared to their BW counterparts and Hydras are better than their BW counterparts. Fix please. nope, you are just bad~~ (sorry, couldn't help it. whining about imbalance in a game without any real strategies discovered is just weird).
lol being bad is macroing BW strats perfectly (lol sc2 UI) and dying everytime to the same stuff I stop in BW? Okay...keep dreaming.
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EPT
