On January 17 2014 10:44 TT1 wrote: yea but lategame mech already feels pretty strong vs p, i think alot of it has to do with the pathing and such but im not really sure why it feels that way. but i do agree that mines are kinda iffy right now, i think the delay hurts the unit too much but i dunno if buffing it would make it too overpowered
it feels like theres something wrong with the mechanics of the game tho. both t and p can macro up reaaaaally fast due to their abilities and the execution is easy aswell. imo you need to increase the skillcap of the game and slow down 200/200 maxs/remaxes
I want to talk for a moment about your last comment. Let's assume for a moment 200/200 is too quick, let's assume something is off starbow, think for a moment how you would go about fixing that something? Think for a moment before reading on. Now I'm going to tell you that,from watching idra's stream, something you guys were doing did seem off. I feel that you guys are treating like playing sc2 with wb units, rather than playing starbow, which is in all honestly a different game because even changes one unit can change the flow of the entire game, and you have to treat it as such. Pretend you have never seen any of the units and don't know how they function. Paving the way is what the pros do in a game like this. It certainly worked in BW. IMO pros should be looking for ways to get an edge up on each other at this stage. They should formulate builds and back up their ideas, as if there is no metagame. That is truly how we will see stunning starbow. You guys need to understand how starbow works, taking bases means more points to defend, it also means income, supply lines. Understand at a fundamental level and you will see brilliant starbow. I think one game that proves this point was crank vs avilo on lzfreebird's koth night. Avilo played his PvT like a madman.After winning a crucial engagement 60+ tanks rammed into crank's main and destroyed his production. How did crank's win? Crank kept his army and recalled it out of the main, built a new production center at the top left gate and proceeded to take the game because avilo was 2basing. He traded any Econ advantage for less targets and enough tanks to destroy an sc2 Protoss in a stunning late game all-in. Crank understood starbow on a deeper level than avilo, and knew he was never in any real danger. And one more thing, you guys should be watching streams like nothing else. Watching other players will give you great ideas.cheers and good luck!
~ulosethegame
Honestly I'd love to watch more streams, but considering that TL doesn't have a section for Starbow yet I'm not sure where to look. I occasionally see something on reddit or in this thread that tips me off, but that's about it.
And no offense to Avilo but I can't stand watching his stream, if he's the only one really doing it.
Most people have been playing the mod for a few days at most, anything feeling "wrong" can be pretty much attributed to feeling different from BW. Hopefully the team can avoid kneejerk reactions and keep pursuing balance instead of just turning the mod into SC2BW, most of the metagame is still completely unexplored.
On January 17 2014 08:42 Kabel wrote: Starbow patch update
Special thanks to Ahli who reached out and helped us with a ton of bug fixes! (And of course to everyone who is involved in the work! Don´t miss to read the credits in the opening post!)
changelog: - deleted enGB locale. Having multiple locales during development just adds the risk of having param value errors. - created a new Siege Tank (Siege Mode) pick-up implemented. This doesn't use triggers and should work better than what you were using. I've also added a workaround for the creep engulfment bug on siege tanks after they've been power grabbed. - removed trigger code that didn't do anything (wait at the end of a trigger, custom value to 0 at map start) - altered the damage switches to use the default case instead of executing the last validator - fixed typos I encountered in tooltips, deleted line breaks at the end of a tooltip - added a text to "Arm Interceptor"s, Temporal Field research, Tunneling Claw research requirement - fixed Ghost's Nuke requirement text - fixed Ghost's Shock ability's targeting search area (now potential targets below the targeting marker are tinted and have a model attached) - fixed Medic's Matrix cast range indicator - fixed Hives being unable to train Swarm Queens - added hallucination death of Carriers, Corsair, Scout, Arbiter, Observer, Reaver, Null Ward - fixed Archon not receiving shield upgrade level 1's level increment and icon change (shields go up) - fixed Arbiter not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Reaver not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Corsair not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Observatory not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Arbiter Tribunal not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Nexus with Khaydarin Citadel not receiving shield upgrades - fixed Siege Tank's 90mm Cannon not displaying the correct damage after the first weapon upgrade (dealt damage was correct) - fixed tunneling Roaches not receiving a bonus from the armor upgrade - fixed unburrowed Lurkers not receiving the correct stats from Ground Carpace Level 3 - raised Viper Nest's armor from 0 to 1 to match it with all other Zerg structures - fixed Swarm Queen's receiving 1 armor while burrowed - moved Spider Mine to Terran Hotkey group - replaced Nydus Worm with Greater Nydus Worm and Nydus Network with Greater Nydus Network in the hotkey setup window - moved Dragoon's "Set Rally Point" to the same position as on the other Warp Gate units - removed the Sensor Tower and Aberration from the hotkey setup window - fixed Ghost having too many buttons in the hotkey setup window - fixed Lurker not showing the burrowed version of its Command Card in the hotkey setup window - fixed Null Ward unit not appearing in the hotkey setup window - fixed Mutalisk and Larvae showing wrong buttons on their command card in the hotkey setup window - fixed the Viking's transform button in fighter mode - fixed Swarm Queen's morphing requirement to show its Spawning Pool condition, too - fixed Swarm Queen's Enrage Cooldown not ticking when she is burrowed - fixed that burrowed Swarm Queens could attack when they were burrowed while being enraged - fixed Siege Tanks, Ghosts, Guardians and Reavers not shooting at passive units like Ghosts with Hold Fire - fixed problems with the Siege Tank (Siege Mode)'s attack model - fixed impact visuals for Goliath's rocket attack, Siege Tank (Tank Mode), Reaper and Marauder attack - added Burrow to the Defiler - correced default Hotkey for Unburrow (R) for the Lurker and its position on the command card - fixed missing Firebat, Guardian, Scourge, Roach, Devourer, Scout in hotkey setup window - fixed Null Ward's shield name and it now receives Shield Armor Upgrades - resolved simple command card problems: - Spider Mine's Detonate button has been moved to the bottom left of the command card - Arbiter now displays the ability buttons and hides the default buttons - removed the attack button for Null Ward - Corsair does no longer display the default buttons - Lurkers will now burrow, if you order different unit types to burrow - fixed some hitpoint bar offsets - fixed Null Ward's appearance in the glossary - removed units that aren't appearing in the game from the glossary - added missing units to the glossary - removed strong/weak against in glossary - fixed concussive and explosion damage types not inflicting damage on Larva's, Overlord's and Mutalisk's Cocoons - fixed Dropship's mouse hitzone and increased the size of the selection circle - fixed units missing all other units for 1.5 seconds after missing an attack - fixed Reapers always hitting with their first pistol - fixed Marines and Marauders inside a bunker never missing units - fixed siege tanks (tank mode) always hitting with their attack
- Queen Enrage visuals updated - Goliath anti-air attack should now properly display an impact effect when hitting Light and Medium units - Scourge has a new model - Defiler has a new death model - Dropship has a new portrait - Viking impact visuals has had its size reduced ¨- Roaches should now properly display their movement animations when using the Tunnel ability
- Stalker starts with 5 range and better Blink. Range upgrade and improved Blink upgrade removed. - Sentinel damage increased from 5 to 6. - Roach damage taken while using the Tunnel ability increased from 50% to 75%. - Reaper bombs damage vs structures reduced from 180 to 120. (Still 60 vs everything else) - Carrier damage nerfed from Sc2 values 2x5 to 2x4 to better fit with the basic BW balance we use as a point of reference atm.
Later on will we try to focus on other potential balance, design and gameplay issues, for example Spider mines, macro mechanics and much more. Please continue to share more thoughts!
Holy bugfixes
Also I want to see huk play starbow and do a stalker all-in
But I play ZvP, ZvT and PvZ mostly. I'd like to play tt1 and see these max outs. Though meching terrans can really spam that SCV calldown ability to get up to 60 workers insanely fast while being safe.
My impressions from playing ZvP and PvZ is that storms are too weak rather than too strong.
On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote: To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
Well the regular Vultures were so much weaker than the SB one so I agree. Having better mines consists more versatility. Vultures were utilized offensively in non-harassive fashion such as encircling Goons/Hydras w/ mines thus blowing them up. I feel that as a community, each patches should address the most vital issues and vote upon any decisions in altering the mod in any way.
So after playing and watching Starbow games for hours, I feel the need to elaborate on the feels it gives me. This post from battle.net forums outlines the very obvious state of professional SC2 we all know by now:
Posted by SlylockMcFox ...Big blogs of units twitching this way and that slightly outside the range of each other, hoping to get the enemy to drop his guard.
Let me illustrate the difference with videos. Watching the above mentioned endless deathball dance of units in normal SC2 feels like this:
and then, after years of SC2, watching a Starbow game feels like this:
:D Just great, please keep up the excellent work and support and a big thanks to you guys on the team. I never thought I'd feel that Brood War-style magic again, tbh.
On January 17 2014 11:49 Uvantak wrote: Hidras end up with a speed movement of ~3.4 after the upgrade according to the wiki, so yeah pretty decent.
As for streams goes i usually post any starbow stream i find to the starbow reddit, so check that out.
Wikia is a bit unclear. Its 1.5 multiplied by 1.9 (not added to). So its 2.9 after research. But remember, that all unit movement speeds and attack speed have been reduced by 8%, so 2.9 corresponds to around 3.14 if it was played on "fastest".
On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote: To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
Well the regular Vultures were so much weaker than the SB one so I agree. Having better mines consists more versatility. Vultures were utilized offensively in non-harassive fashion such as encircling Goons/Hydras w/ mines thus blowing them up. I feel that as a community, each patches should address the most vital issues and vote upon any decisions in altering the mod in any way.
Its definitely in our interest to make Spider Mines usefull in small battles. But I think we wanna see how strong (and fun) it becomes when players learn/start to manually activate it.
My experiences with spider mines so far: It takes too long for them to burrow (longer than brood war). And they rarely ever activate...at least compared to brood war spider mines.
On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote: To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
Well the regular Vultures were so much weaker than the SB one so I agree. Having better mines consists more versatility. Vultures were utilized offensively in non-harassive fashion such as encircling Goons/Hydras w/ mines thus blowing them up. I feel that as a community, each patches should address the most vital issues and vote upon any decisions in altering the mod in any way.
Its definitely in our interest to make Spider Mines usefull in small battles. But I think we wanna see how strong (and fun) it becomes when players learn/start to manually active it.
On January 17 2014 08:51 Wombat_NI wrote: SCBW was pretty much a port, Starbow keeps some cool SC2 ideas and units and some of the easier UI, it's pretty obvious why it would be more interesting to many
i liked the idea of SC2BW and thought it could maybe get popular in the same way dota2 became popular. It's not 100% parity of Dota 1 it has some nice convenience changes, a bit of new bugs and mechanics but more or less it's dota. That's all I ever wanted SC2 to be so maybe I was too hopeful for SC2BW. BW with a bit of convenience (MBS/more unit selection) and an engine/graphically overhaul sounds about just the perfect RTS for todays generation.
anyway i don't wanna muck up this thread. I'm going to give Starbow a try this weekend, I've been dying for a proper RTS.
i did try to manually activate mines a couple times, does it work oddly if you have multiple mines selected when you do it? or does only one trigger then? i never tried it in small enough situations to trigger them one by one.
On January 17 2014 10:28 IdrA wrote: general thoughts after playing a bit more zerg production seems wonky, but may just be designed that way. seems like 2 hatcheries per base, even mining suboptimally, is necessary. queens dont seem like they make as big an impact as the t/p boost mechanics but not sure.
zerg units feel really slow, especially for zerg units. might be necessary but just design wise i'd prefer weaker, faster units. feels more zergy. although faster units kind of forces turtely gameplay from your opponents so it might be a smart sacrifice to make.
it's really fuckin annoying that recall still goes through if you kill the arbiter. goliaths also seem much worse than they were in broodwar. i didnt experiment with using vikings in their place, and apparently vikings on the ground got buffed, plus starport is necessary for 2/2 grades, so that may be a better option.
spider mines (or whatever theyre called now) seem shit. they do not work at all aggressively, which was one of their coolest applications in bw, created a lot of control on both sides. they didn't even seem super effective defensively, in front of a tank line. im not sure exactly how the manual trigger works, i tried to use it a couple times and it didn't seem to make a difference, may just be me fucking it up though.
storm still seems absurdly strong but i think p would have 0 chance vs z without it, and at least it's cooler and more workable than forcefields.
With regards to the zerg macro; I think you were making too many drones and not enough expansions. It's better to have 3 base with 10 drones per line than 2 base with 15 drones per line because of the mining speed reduction, from what I can tell at least. Of course this means being on the offensive or containing while taking bases becomes strong. Additionally, I think being more aggressive would help for all races, this isn't turtlecraft 2 anymore.
I feel the high ground advantage should be changed. 50% chance to miss is just stupid because it adds an element of luck that the player really has no control over. Rather than do the 50% chance to miss you could do units on high ground take 50% less damage. It would give you the same statistical advantage you want with the miss chance, but without the luck of missing or not.
Realistically i feel 50% would be too much, and it should be something like 40%, but that's a different issue.
On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote: To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
Well the regular Vultures were so much weaker than the SB one so I agree. Having better mines consists more versatility. Vultures were utilized offensively in non-harassive fashion such as encircling Goons/Hydras w/ mines thus blowing them up. I feel that as a community, each patches should address the most vital issues and vote upon any decisions in altering the mod in any way.
Its definitely in our interest to make Spider Mines usefull in small battles. But I think we wanna see how strong (and fun) it becomes when players learn/start to manually active it.
O_O
Yeah, I'm with you. Maybe if you can smart cast them, but one at a time sounds like the worst.
EPT
