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On January 17 2014 09:32 shin_toss wrote:
They fix faster and better than Blizzard. Thanks!
also I haven't tried Stalker in SB. So when I should get stalkers instead of goons? except of Blink. Are they better engaging siege lines?
I will just copy-paste my earlier post from this thread.
"Different type of attack from Dragoons. Dragoons do well against heavy armored units, Stalkers do bonus against Light units. They are alternative to fighting Mutas and Banshees without needing to go for Corsairs since Dragoons are quite slow and even in straight up fight won't really trade efficiently."
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On January 17 2014 08:50 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 08:42 Kabel wrote:Starbow patch updateSpecial thanks to Ahli who reached out and helped us with a ton of bug fixes! (And of course to everyone who is involved in the work!) Bug fixes:+ Show Spoiler +
changelog:
- deleted enGB locale. Having multiple locales during development just adds the risk of having param value errors.
- created a new Siege Tank (Siege Mode) pick-up implemented. This doesn't use triggers and should work better than what you were using. I've also added a workaround for the creep engulfment bug on siege tanks after they've been power grabbed.
- removed trigger code that didn't do anything (wait at the end of a trigger, custom value to 0 at map start)
- altered the damage switches to use the default case instead of executing the last validator
- fixed typos I encountered in tooltips, deleted line breaks at the end of a tooltip
- added a text to "Arm Interceptor"s, Temporal Field research, Tunneling Claw research requirement
- fixed Ghost's Nuke requirement text
- fixed Ghost's Shock ability's targeting search area (now potential targets below the targeting marker are tinted and have a model attached)
- fixed Medic's Matrix cast range indicator
- fixed Hives being unable to train Swarm Queens
- added hallucination death of Carriers, Corsair, Scout, Arbiter, Observer, Reaver, Null Ward
- fixed Archon not receiving shield upgrade level 1's level increment and icon change (shields go up)
- fixed Arbiter not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Reaver not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Corsair not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Observatory not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Arbiter Tribunal not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Nexus with Khaydarin Citadel not receiving shield upgrades
- fixed Siege Tank's 90mm Cannon not displaying the correct damage after the first weapon upgrade (dealt damage was correct)
- fixed tunneling Roaches not receiving a bonus from the armor upgrade
- fixed unburrowed Lurkers not receiving the correct stats from Ground Carpace Level 3
- raised Viper Nest's armor from 0 to 1 to match it with all other Zerg structures
- fixed Swarm Queen's receiving 1 armor while burrowed
- moved Spider Mine to Terran Hotkey group
- replaced Nydus Worm with Greater Nydus Worm and Nydus Network with Greater Nydus Network in the hotkey setup window
- moved Dragoon's "Set Rally Point" to the same position as on the other Warp Gate units
- removed the Sensor Tower and Aberration from the hotkey setup window
- fixed Ghost having too many buttons in the hotkey setup window
- fixed Lurker not showing the burrowed version of its Command Card in the hotkey setup window
- fixed Null Ward unit not appearing in the hotkey setup window
- fixed Mutalisk and Larvae showing wrong buttons on their command card in the hotkey setup window
- fixed the Viking's transform button in fighter mode
- fixed Swarm Queen's morphing requirement to show its Spawning Pool condition, too
- fixed Swarm Queen's Enrage Cooldown not ticking when she is burrowed
- fixed that burrowed Swarm Queens could attack when they were burrowed while being enraged
- fixed Siege Tanks, Ghosts, Guardians and Reavers not shooting at passive units like Ghosts with Hold Fire
- fixed problems with the Siege Tank (Siege Mode)'s attack model
- fixed impact visuals for Goliath's rocket attack, Siege Tank (Tank Mode), Reaper and Marauder attack
- added Burrow to the Defiler
- correced default Hotkey for Unburrow (R) for the Lurker and its position on the command card
- fixed missing Firebat, Guardian, Scourge, Roach, Devourer, Scout in hotkey setup window
- fixed Null Ward's shield name and it now receives Shield Armor Upgrades
- resolved simple command card problems:
- Spider Mine's Detonate button has been moved to the bottom left of the command card
- Arbiter now displays the ability buttons and hides the default buttons
- removed the attack button for Null Ward
- Corsair does no longer display the default buttons
- Lurkers will now burrow, if you order different unit types to burrow
- fixed some hitpoint bar offsets
- fixed Null Ward's appearance in the glossary
- removed units that aren't appearing in the game from the glossary
- added missing units to the glossary
- removed strong/weak against in glossary
- fixed concussive and explosion damage types not inflicting damage on Larva's, Overlord's and Mutalisk's Cocoons
- fixed Dropship's mouse hitzone and increased the size of the selection circle
- fixed units missing all other units for 1.5 seconds after missing an attack
- fixed Reapers always hitting with their first pistol
- fixed Marines and Marauders inside a bunker never missing units
- fixed siege tanks (tank mode) always hitting with their attack
Graphical & animation fixes+ Show Spoiler +
- Queen Enrage visuals updated
- Goliath anti-air attack should now properly display an impact effect when hitting Light and Medium units
- Scourge has a new model
- Defiler has a new death model
- Dropship has a new portrait
- Viking impact visuals has had its size reduced
¨- Roaches should now properly display their movement animations when using the Tunnel ability
- Stalker starts with 5 range and better Blink. Range upgrade and improved Blink upgrade removed.
- Sentinel damage increased from 5 to 6.
- Roach damage taken while using the Tunnel ability increased from 50% to 75%.
- Reaper bombs damage vs structures reduced from 180 to 120. (Still 60 vs everything else)
- Carrier damage nerfed from Sc2 values 2x5 to 2x4 to better fit with the basic BW balance we use as a point of reference atm.
Later on will we try to focus on other potential balance, design and gameplay issues, for example Spider mines, macro mechanics and much more. Please continue to share more thoughts! Looks great. Thanks Kabel. Definitely think spider mines need a change. (like faster detonation or longer activation range)
Quoting my self from last page:
You need to manually target fire them (Press "e" and click on target). They are better than in BW if you do that. If you don't do that, they are indeed a bit worse.
Note they have 5.25 range when you target fire. In BW range was 3!
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dunno it feels like theres something wrong with the game but i just cant put my finger on it. mechanically protoss feels really really easy to play(didnt test the other races yet), all you have to do is rally on top of ur units and mass chrono boost.. balance-wise i think you should do something about reavers, their first shot comes out too quick so you never have enough time to select a target
and is there a reason why you didnt add goons as a warpgate unit? cus it feels really awkward having half of your gates as warpgates and the other half as regular ones
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What are banelings intended for? Couldn`t find a use for them yet, too slow (even with upgrade). Would suggest on creep speed buff, but I have not played enough games yet to really have a strong opinion about them.
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On January 17 2014 10:08 TT1 wrote:
dunno it feels like theres something wrong with the game but i just cant put my finger on it. mechanically protoss feels really really easy to play(didnt test the other races yet), all you have to do is rally on top of ur units and mass chrono boost.. balance-wise i think you should do something about reavers, their first shot comes out too quick so you never have enough time to select a target
and is there a reason why you didnt add goons as a warpgate unit? cus it feels really awkward having half of your gates as warpgates and the other half as regular ones
Interesting thoughts. Maybe play more games to address your feelings about Protoss mechanics with some specific suggestions? The developers seem to react quite fast with patches and updates and I'm sure they'd appreciate the opinion of higher level players.
It's certainly fun to watch the games, I can tell you that much.
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Man hydras seem insanely slow. That'll be hard to get used to xD
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general thoughts after playing a bit more
zerg production seems wonky, but may just be designed that way. seems like 2 hatcheries per base, even mining suboptimally, is necessary. queens dont seem like they make as big an impact as the t/p boost mechanics but not sure.
zerg units feel really slow, especially for zerg units. might be necessary but just design wise i'd prefer weaker, faster units. feels more zergy. although faster units kind of forces turtely gameplay from your opponents so it might be a smart sacrifice to make.
it's really fuckin annoying that recall still goes through if you kill the arbiter. goliaths also seem much worse than they were in broodwar. i didnt experiment with using vikings in their place, and apparently vikings on the ground got buffed, plus starport is necessary for 2/2 grades, so that may be a better option.
spider mines (or whatever theyre called now) seem shit. they do not work at all aggressively, which was one of their coolest applications in bw, created a lot of control on both sides. they didn't even seem super effective defensively, in front of a tank line. im not sure exactly how the manual trigger works, i tried to use it a couple times and it didn't seem to make a difference, may just be me fucking it up though.
storm still seems absurdly strong but i think p would have 0 chance vs z without it, and at least it's cooler and more workable than forcefields.
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On January 17 2014 08:33 TBone- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 08:30 crms wrote:
what is making this mod explode in popularity that didn't make SC2BW? Totalbiscuit and husky both did casts on it.
Also factor in that it's not trying to be exactly Brood War like SC2BW but more of a hybrid leaning more on the side of Brood War.
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and is there a reason why you didnt add goons as a warpgate unit? cus it feels really awkward having half of your gates as warpgates and the other half as regular ones
We previously had warp tech with all units and it was simply straight up broken as the positional advantage it provided was of extremely high value. Further, the instant reinforcements resulted in less back-and forth games as Protoss could end the game right after a battle.
Warp tech is IMO most interesting when it is used for offensive harass purpose in the later stages of the game. In my opinion it has a lot of potenital in that regard, but it is indeed very hard to macro out of both warp tech and gateway, but one could see that as a way of increasing the skill cap.
dunno it feels like theres something wrong with the game but i just cant put my finger on it. mechanically protoss feels really really easy to play(didnt test the other races yet), all you have to do is rally on top of ur units and mass chrono boost.. balance-wise i think you should do something about reavers, their first shot comes out too quick so you never have enough time to select a target
I watched all your games vs Idra and I got the feeling that both of you were still in an early phase of learning the game.
In my opinion the games were a lot less multitsk-based than they could have been. PvZ can easily be extremely aggressive when you use Rift along with Zealot harass. Idra could also have used Roaches more aggressively through Roach movement or went for dropship openings/Fantasy style in PvT (that has received a big buff in Sbow relative to BW). With that type of gameplay, I think it would have felt a lot harder and more entertaining.
I think when the meta will develop, it will be alot harder as more stuff will be going on, and thus for the time being we will not be doing any huge changes as the meta changes on an almost daily basis.
zerg units feel really slow, especially for zerg units. might be necessary but just design wise i'd prefer weaker, faster units. feels more zergy. although faster units kind of forces turtely gameplay from your opponents so it might be a smart sacrifice to make.
Roaches are designed in such a way that they are faster when they burrow. We have received a lot of positive feedback on this unit as it has a lot of micro potential when burrowed.
I am pretty sure that most other units have the same movement speed as in BW.
zerg production seems wonky, but may just be designed that way. seems like 2 hatcheries per base, even mining suboptimally, is necessary. queens dont seem like they make as big an impact as the t/p boost mechanics but not sure.
Larva is the same as in BW. Relative to macro hatch, inject provides 30% more larva for the same cost (2 queens vs 1 macrohatch) if you inject perfectly.
storm still seems absurdly strong but i think p would have 0 chance vs z without it, and at least it's cooler and more workable than forcefields.
Storm DPS is acutally 50% less than in BW (it deals damage over 6 seconds instead of 4). But yeh it is still very powerfull with smartcast.
spider mines (or whatever theyre called now) seem !@#$%^&*. they do not work at all aggressively, which was one of their coolest applications in bw, created a lot of control on both sides. they didn't even seem super effective defensively, in front of a tank line. im not sure exactly how the manual trigger works, i tried to use it a couple times and it didn't seem to make a difference, may just be me fucking it up though.
You can click on the spider mine. Press "e" and manully target fire an enemy unit. When doing this, the range of the spider mine is increased from 3 to 5.25 and it instantly fires. Otherwise there is an 1.8 second delay. When you guys have tried this for a while, we love to hear your feedback on how it feels, because it indeed a bit of an experiment.
it's really fuckin annoying that recall still goes through if you kill the arbiter. goliaths also seem much worse than they were in broodwar. i didnt experiment with using vikings in their place, and apparently vikings on the ground got buffed, plus starport is necessary for 2/2 grades, so that may be a better option.
Yeh the Arbiter-recall thing could be a bug. I will look into it. Goliath - I think it should have same stats as in BW, but we could double-check this one.
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On January 17 2014 10:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +and is there a reason why you didnt add goons as a warpgate unit? cus it feels really awkward having half of your gates as warpgates and the other half as regular ones We previously had warp tech with all units and it was simply straight up broken as the positional advantage it provided was of extremely high value. Further, the instant reinforcements resulted also made for less back-and forth games as Protoss could end the game right after a battle. Warp tech is IMO most interesting when it is used for offensive harass purpose in the later stages of the game. In my opinion it has a lot of potenital in that regard, but it is indeed very hard to macro out of both warp tech and gateway, but one could see that as a way of increasing the skill cap. Show nested quote +dunno it feels like theres something wrong with the game but i just cant put my finger on it. mechanically protoss feels really really easy to play(didnt test the other races yet), all you have to do is rally on top of ur units and mass chrono boost.. balance-wise i think you should do something about reavers, their first shot comes out too quick so you never have enough time to select a target
I watched all your games vs Idra and I got the feeling that both of you were still in an early phase of learning the game. In my opinion the games were a lot less multitsk-based than they could have been. PvZ can easily be extremely aggressive when you use Rift along with Zealot harass. Idra could also have used Roaches more aggressively through Roach movement or went for dropship openings/Fantasy style in PvT (that has received a big buff in Sbow relative to BW). With that type of gameplay, I think it would have felt a lot harder and more entertaining. I think when the meta will develop, it will be alot harder as more stuff will be going on, and thus for the time being we will not be doing any huge changes as the meta changes on an almost daily basis. Show nested quote +zerg units feel really slow, especially for zerg units. might be necessary but just design wise i'd prefer weaker, faster units. feels more zergy. although faster units kind of forces turtely gameplay from your opponents so it might be a smart sacrifice to make. Roaches are designed in such a way that they are faster when they burrow. We have received a lot of positive feedback on this unit as it has a lot of micro potential when burrowed. I am pretty sure that most other units have the same movement speed as in BW.
Loving your answers, time will bring the answers to this game. Dont bring the nerf or buff hammer too fast ! 
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On January 17 2014 10:28 IdrA wrote:
general thoughts after playing a bit more
zerg production seems wonky, but may just be designed that way. seems like 2 hatcheries per base, even mining suboptimally, is necessary. queens dont seem like they make as big an impact as the t/p boost mechanics but not sure.
zerg units feel really slow, especially for zerg units. might be necessary but just design wise i'd prefer weaker, faster units. feels more zergy. although faster units kind of forces turtely gameplay from your opponents so it might be a smart sacrifice to make.
it's really fuckin annoying that recall still goes through if you kill the arbiter. goliaths also seem much worse than they were in broodwar. i didnt experiment with using vikings in their place, and apparently vikings on the ground got buffed, plus starport is necessary for 2/2 grades, so that may be a better option.
spider mines (or whatever theyre called now) seem shit. they do not work at all aggressively, which was one of their coolest applications in bw, created a lot of control on both sides. they didn't even seem super effective defensively, in front of a tank line. im not sure exactly how the manual trigger works, i tried to use it a couple times and it didn't seem to make a difference, may just be me fucking it up though.
storm still seems absurdly strong but i think p would have 0 chance vs z without it, and at least it's cooler and more workable than forcefields.
I do agree from playing and from watching production for zerg seems a tad slow compared to other races.
Do you think if a hatchery morphs into a lair, then to a hive it should allow for more bankable larva at every morph? If that is worded weirdly, I mean at lair you get 4 bankable larva, then hive you get 5 or something like that. I feel in comparison to the level of production that especially Terran can potentially do especially if they use reactors and overcharge, they can outproduce at an exponentially higher rate than Zerg potentially can.
Even with the detonate ability for spider mines (which is awesome to see when other people use it), it just seems the length for spider mines to burrow is insanely slow.
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It might have already been brought up earlier, but are there any plans for any 3v3 or 4v4 maps when or before 2.1 hits?
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yea but lategame mech already feels pretty strong vs p, i think alot of it has to do with the pathing and such but im not really sure why it feels that way. but i do agree that mines are kinda iffy right now, i think the detonation delay hurts the unit too much but buffing it might make it too overpowered
it feels like theres something wrong with the mechanics of the game tho. both t and p can macro up reaaaaally fast due to their abilities and the execution is easy aswell. imo you need to increase the skillcap of the game and slow down 200/200 maxs/remaxes
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On January 17 2014 10:33 Hider wrote:
Yeh the Arbiter-recall thing could be a bug. I will look into it. Goliath - I think it should have same stats as in BW, but we could double-check this one.
range for sure felt noticeably shorter, even with the upgrade. it may just be because the animation was much less pronounced but i dont think so.
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On January 17 2014 10:44 TT1 wrote:
yea but lategame mech already feels pretty strong vs p, i think alot of it has to do with the pathing and such but im not really sure why it feels that way. but i do agree that mines are kinda iffy right now, i think the delay hurts the unit too much but i dunno if buffing it would make it too overpowered
it feels like theres something wrong with the mechanics of the game tho. both t and p can macro up reaaaaally fast due to their abilities and the execution is easy aswell. imo you need to increase the skillcap of the game and slow down 200/200 maxs/remaxes
Don't you think you should play more games first? I'm not an expert on balance obviously, but it seems that the game is far deeper in the meta than has currently been explored by pro-players. From a viewer perspective is seems like there is a shit-load of strategy and unit combo's and timings that haven't been utilized.
Honestly, what we need is something like a $5000+ prize pool King of the Beta Tournament and we'll see a lot of discussion on this from pro players and get some kind of consensus.
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To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
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Loving your answers, time will bring the answers to this game. Dont bring the nerf or buff hammer too fast !
Actually we recently released a balance patch. But it only had changes we were quite certain were needed. It contained:
- Stalker starts with 5 range and better Blink. Range upgrade and improved Blink upgrade removed.
- Sentinel damage increased from 5 to 6.
- Roach damage taken while using the Tunnel ability increased from 50% to 75%.
- Reaper bombs damage vs structures reduced from 180 to 120. (Still 60 vs everything else)
- Carrier damage nerfed from Sc2 values 2x5 to 2x4 to better fit with the basic BW balance we use as a point of reference atm.
Viking will also be buffed in the next patch. While it isn't intended to be a very cost effective AA unit (due to its mobility), it is a bit too weak atm.
Sentinels nullsphre (the bombs as TT1 called it against Idra) kinda works a bit weird at the moment. It deals 20 damage vs light, 30 vs medium and 40 vs armored. But againt protoss, it does full damage to shield which makes it one-shot probes. That makes it very strong vs protoss, but somewhat weaker vs terran and zerg. When that is said, I think its also a unit that will take a bit of time to learn/figure how to use properly. Both in terms of when/where to set up the nullsphres and how many Sentinels to get. In sc2 players typically just get 1 or 2 oracles, but I think it may be benfical to get 4-5 Sentinels here. Instead, the toss player can delay his robo tech as the Sentinel can also detect.
So I think we will wait a bit before we change the damage values of the Nullsphre - especially since we also just buffed the Sentinels standard damage attack, but it is definitely something we will keep an eye on.
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On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote:
To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun.
Well we haven't even seen anyone try the manual targeting yet. Idra didn't even realize it was possible I think until it was too late.
The developer just said that mines get longer range and cast instantly when micro'd, afterall. For people wanting the game to be more skill-based, that sounds like a reasonable mechanic to me. At least in theory.
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On January 17 2014 11:04 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 10:57 Jawra wrote:
To be honest I'd much more prefer the regular BW SpiderMines as they worked so well in many scenarios, for example doing 2 Fac versus a Protoss. It was so viable. Now, having a 1.8 second delay for the activation is just waaay to much.
I'd rather that area did not get affected that much, since it was so much fun. Well we haven't even seen anyone try the manual targeting yet. Idra didn't even realize it was possible I think until it was too late. The developer just said that mines get longer range and cast instantly when micro'd, afterall. For people wanting the game to be more skill-based, that sounds like a reasonable mechanic to me. At least in theory.
Avilo has used it. It seemed pretty strong when he did it, and I think the skill-cap for manually target firing is really high. But whether players find it fun or just annoying is still to be seen.
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EPT
