EPTStarbow - Page 336
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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TMagpie
265 Posts
On June 16 2015 03:12 Laertes wrote: Perhaps I am naive and misinformed, but what does any of this have to do with Starbow? lolias is suggesting that the recent trend in the LOTV threads where people essentially say "blah blah, like in Starbow, blah blah" is a waste of time since believing that making the game "less casual" will not actually make people enjoy the game better. And from the tone of his posts, he seems to think that the TL trend to support Starbow is harmful to the future of SC2. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
dota is an easy casual game too, but i can play it and relax with my skins and friends, making it more attractive to me as a social game.. CS is more stressful than dota, and the skins have less of an impact than dota. I'm really not incentived to play CS over DOTA as a result of the skins though. i feel like we're muddling up like 5 different arguments into "is sc2 casual?" and "should starbow have skins?" | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation618 Posts
And if people in LotV threads started to refer to Starbow as a model for SC2 - then it's very, very good, which means that the mod answers the desires of Starcraft playerbase, which means Starbow went and continues to go in the right direction of development. | ||
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TMagpie
265 Posts
On June 16 2015 03:22 Endymion wrote: i agree that sc2 was "dumbed down" for more mass appeal, but what do skins have to do with that? I don't play sc2 because it's a bad game that doesn't reward me for my skill like broodwar does, and i wouldn't play it even if it had skins... dota is an easy casual game too, but i can play it and relax with my skins and friends, making it more attractive to me as a social game.. CS is more stressful than dota, and the skins have less of an impact than dota. I'm really not incentived to play CS over DOTA as a result of the skins though. i feel like we're muddling up like 5 different arguments into "is sc2 casual?" and "should starbow have skins?" Don't strawman the skins comment. People enjoy small reward systems--that is a truism. Everything from clickbaits, to skins, to daily quests in games like hearthstone is what provides players with a sense of accomplishment. The difficulty/balance/design of the game is not really that relevant whether its as casual or LoL or as intense as CS. There are billions of people on this planet. There are near infinite levels of difficulty, design, etc... that the people in that population enjoy. The one commonality among them is that humans enjoy being rewarded for what they do, and the more often they are rewarded the happier they are. Read up on compensation theory, marketing theory, and sales theory if you want to learn more about that. While I think lolias was stupid in the way he presented it, the idea is still sound. Focusing purely on what you think the viewer wants instead of giving them what they are already consuming is (for the most part) absurd unless you have good evidence to the contrary. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On June 16 2015 03:34 TMagpie wrote: Don't strawman the skins comment. People enjoy small reward systems--that is a truism. Everything from clickbaits, to skins, to daily quests in games like hearthstone is what provides players with a sense of accomplishment. The difficulty/balance/design of the game is not really that relevant whether its as casual or LoL or as intense as CS. There are billions of people on this planet. There are near infinite levels of difficulty, design, etc... that the people in that population enjoy. The one commonality among them is that humans enjoy being rewarded for what they do, and the more often they are rewarded the happier they are. Read up on compensation theory, marketing theory, and sales theory if you want to learn more about that. While I think lolias was stupid in the way he presented it, the idea is still sound. Focusing purely on what you think the viewer wants instead of giving them what they are already consuming is (for the most part) absurd unless you have good evidence to the contrary. i'm not strawmanning his argument, i agree that they bring value to games and that i enjoy games with skins more than games without skins... (ie my earlier post).. however they don't change the underlying game | ||
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KrOmander
United Kingdom78 Posts
On June 16 2015 03:22 Endymion wrote: i agree that sc2 was "dumbed down" for more mass appeal, but what do skins have to do with that? I don't play sc2 because it's a bad game that doesn't reward me for my skill like broodwar does, and i wouldn't play it even if it had skins... dota is an easy casual game too, but i can play it and relax with my skins and friends, making it more attractive to me as a social game.. CS is more stressful than dota, and the skins have less of an impact than dota. I'm really not incentived to play CS over DOTA as a result of the skins though. i feel like we're muddling up like 5 different arguments into "is sc2 casual?" and "should starbow have skins?" Yes Sc2 is easier mechanically, but the playerbase is the most competitive of all the RTS games right now. Also Dota easy and casual? Probably the most competitive Moba out there and arguably most competitive e-sport right now. I think you play it causally rather than the game is easy and casual. Good job on the mod guys. I do like what you have done but personally I am waiting for a brand spanking new RTS. Kind of sick of anything available right now mod or standard and LotV doesn't excite me at all. Could be a long wait... GL. | ||
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SonGoku
Germany152 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On June 16 2015 23:39 SonGoku wrote: Can we get a Starbow stream section on TL? I find it hard to find any streams at all and SC2 is dead and no fun to play at all I second this. specially taking into consideration Starbow has its own section on twitch :D | ||
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
Starbow is superior in design to SC2, and it would be wonderful if it had its own section on TL and on Twitch! Project M did it, they got their own section on Twitch and on Smashboards. Alas, Twitch is now suppressing them, out of fear and self-interest, because of the ridiculous mod-hating nature of Nintendo of Japan, and everyone mourns with them. I trust, however, that Blizzard is neither so arrogant nor backwards as to take such a motion as a slight, as it would not be, and should not be viewed as such. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On June 17 2015 03:57 Jaedrik wrote: I got an account here to agree with the good folks above. Starbow is superior in design to SC2, and it would be wonderful if it had its own section on TL and on Twitch! Project M did it, they got their own section on Twitch and on Smashboards. Alas, Twitch is now suppressing them, out of fear and self-interest, because of the ridiculous mod-hating nature of Nintendo of Japan, and everyone mourns with them. I trust, however, that Blizzard is neither so arrogant nor backwards as to take such a motion as a slight, as it would not be, and should not be viewed as such. LOL Twitch isn't suppressing Project M out of fear. As the Smash community grows and becomes more intertwined with Nintendo through sponsorship, they can't continue to operate in a legal grey area where they're promoting a mod that illegal. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On June 17 2015 00:31 Lexender wrote: I second this. specially taking into consideration Starbow has its own section on twitch :D I'll third it. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On June 17 2015 04:38 Tenks wrote: Aren't Fish and iCCup technically illegal as well? I don't know when or why game companies got so tight up about people modding their games but it is somewhat frustrating and they should embrace it. Even the XCom devs have come out and said Long War basically makes XCom feel like a tutorial to Long War. Hopefully they take some lessons from Long War and use them in XCom2. It is basically giving the development team free ideas. Crowdsource your design. From what I have gathered, Blizzard has always been supportive towards the modding community (except the DotA thing) and also approves developement such as Starbow or the Starcraftsmod. Mainly because they have trouble keeping the Arcade popular (which imo has more to do with the bnet UI than the quality of mods out there) | ||
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
On June 17 2015 04:10 Lunareste wrote: LOL Twitch isn't suppressing Project M out of fear. As the Smash community grows and becomes more intertwined with Nintendo through sponsorship, they can't continue to operate in a legal grey area where they're promoting a mod that illegal. Bro. I have the inside infos. Also you accidentally a word. Besides, I don't see where we disagree. Your explanation and mine are not mutually exclusive. On June 17 2015 04:38 Tenks wrote: Aren't Fish and iCCup technically illegal as well? I don't know when or why game companies got so tight up about people modding their games but it is somewhat frustrating and they should embrace it. Even the XCom devs have come out and said Long War basically makes XCom feel like a tutorial to Long War. Hopefully they take some lessons from Long War and use them in XCom2. It is basically giving the development team free ideas. Crowdsource your design. Hear, hear! Part of my confidence about Blizzard is the fact they have, well, an arcade with custom games. But then I remember the DOTA fiasco, and how they rejected Icefrog because he wouldn't compromise with them. It benefits everyone to embrace openness in modding and design etc. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
On June 17 2015 05:08 Endymion wrote: This is strange. I heard the rumors that Blizz suppressed SC1 around when WoL was coming out. Someone shot me down for spreading them. Is there any substantiation to this? If so, and that attitude prevails in the company still, then we have an unfortunately smaller chance of getting our own section in Twitch.i think iccup and fish are illegal and actively hunted by blizz, other servers have been shut down by them | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On June 17 2015 06:13 Jaedrik wrote: This is strange. I heard the rumors that Blizz suppressed SC1 around when WoL was coming out. Someone shot me down for spreading them. Is there any substantiation to this? If so, and that attitude prevails in the company still, then we have an unfortunately smaller chance of getting our own section in Twitch. well blizz fucked around a lot with its relationship with kespa in 2009/2010 without any respect for BW or repercussions, that's probably what you're referring to with it "suppressing sc1."Historically, blizz hasn't been successful at totally shutting down BW private servers, although it has killed a few WC3 ones i believe, which is more of what i was referring to tbh.. i think iccup is hosted out of russia atm which is why it hasn't been fully taken out yet | ||
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TMagpie
265 Posts
On June 17 2015 06:13 Jaedrik wrote: This is strange. I heard the rumors that Blizz suppressed SC1 around when WoL was coming out. Someone shot me down for spreading them. Is there any substantiation to this? If so, and that attitude prevails in the company still, then we have an unfortunately smaller chance of getting our own section in Twitch. Blizzard went after Kespa for public broadcasting a product which was fully owned by Blizzard. Unlike private servers that could run away, Kespa could not exactly "run" to a different network and hence was gimped in their ability to produce BW content. | ||
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