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Scotland3152 Posts
On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow.
Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells.
Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase.
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On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase.
How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position?
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Scotland3152 Posts
On March 06 2014 21:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position?
I'm not talking about reaver drops, I'm talking about reavers as a part of the Protoss army. In engagements it is very easy to shock or abduct reavers away from Protoss, mitigating their utility greatly.
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On March 06 2014 22:07 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:27 Big J wrote:On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position? I'm not talking about reaver drops, I'm talking about reavers as a part of the Protoss army. In engagements it is very easy to shock or abduct reavers away from Protoss, mitigating their utility greatly.
ah ok, yeah, since you were talking about anti air I was certain you'd be talking about warp prism harass.
Vipers are indeed good for that, though BW queens would have been even better with the broodling spell. I mean, it's instagib instead of "just a pull". There must be a reason why Zergs didn't use them in Broodwar, and this might apply to Starbow as well. Might also just be the reaver itself that has changed so that now countering it like that has become efficient, which it might not have been in Broodwar (since it should usually still get off a scarab or two, regardless of Queens or Vipers in that situation).
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On March 06 2014 22:07 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:27 Big J wrote:On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position? I'm not talking about reaver drops, I'm talking about reavers as a part of the Protoss army. In engagements it is very easy to shock or abduct reavers away from Protoss, mitigating their utility greatly.
I'll give you abduct. However, I don't see how shock shutdowns reaver any better than lockdown.
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On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase.
I'd rather see the pathing changed. Groups of units still feel very small and weird in starbow, like in sc2 instead of bw.
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On March 06 2014 22:24 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. I'd rather see the pathing changed. Groups of units still feel very small and weird in starbow, like in sc2 instead of bw.
yeah, they clump really hard while moving (=at the start of a combat) and that messes with all the implemented "BW balance". Worst of all is probably the mutalisk with that forced stacking, so they get shut down by Irradiate, Templar and Archons way too hard and unstacking is nearly impossible - and also does not last for more than until you move again, so, the opponent just has to run a little bit and your whole magic box was a waste of APM.
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On March 06 2014 22:22 Big J wrote:
Vipers are indeed good for that, though BW queens would have been even better with the broodling spell. I mean, it's instagib instead of "just a pull". There must be a reason why Zergs didn't use them in Broodwar, and this might apply to Starbow as well. Might also just be the reaver itself that has changed so that now countering it like that has become efficient, which it might not have been in Broodwar (since it should usually still get off a scarab or two, regardless of Queens or Vipers in that situation).
In broodwar Queen's Spawn Broodling could only target Mechanical/Organic targets. Reavers were Robotic and so couldn't be targeted.
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On March 06 2014 22:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 22:07 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 21:27 Big J wrote:On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position? I'm not talking about reaver drops, I'm talking about reavers as a part of the Protoss army. In engagements it is very easy to shock or abduct reavers away from Protoss, mitigating their utility greatly. ah ok, yeah, since you were talking about anti air I was certain you'd be talking about warp prism harass. Vipers are indeed good for that, though BW queens would have been even better with the broodling spell. I mean, it's instagib instead of "just a pull". There must be a reason why Zergs didn't use them in Broodwar, and this might apply to Starbow as well. Might also just be the reaver itself that has changed so that now countering it like that has become efficient, which it might not have been in Broodwar (since it should usually still get off a scarab or two, regardless of Queens or Vipers in that situation).
In BW, Spawn Broodling didn't work on pure mechanical units if I remember correctly. Reavers were immune to the effects.
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Scotland3152 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:23 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 22:07 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 21:27 Big J wrote:On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. How do you kill a reaver or reaver drop with abduct or ghosts when you are not in position? I'm not talking about reaver drops, I'm talking about reavers as a part of the Protoss army. In engagements it is very easy to shock or abduct reavers away from Protoss, mitigating their utility greatly. I'll give you abduct. However, I don't see how shock shutdowns reaver any better than lockdown.
Terran couldn't go bio in BW and ghosts weren't tier 1.5.
On March 06 2014 22:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 22:24 Grumbels wrote:On March 06 2014 21:15 Piy wrote:On March 06 2014 20:22 Arco wrote:On March 06 2014 18:32 Xiphias wrote:On March 06 2014 09:43 Piy wrote:
Why is there a constant attempt to remove shuttle reaver micro from the game?
Terran and Zerg have both been given really overly strong hardcounters to shuttle reaver as an army component in Starbow. If you build them as an army unit vs a Terran going bio and they have one ghost, one 50/150 unit can shut down 2 reavers in a shuttle. I pretty much never go reavers vs bio anymore, simply because they auto win if they make a ghost or 2.
The same is true of PvZ with abduct. You don't even need to fly that close to their vipers, and if you get in range, even if you pull back out of the way, the abduct will follow the shuttle and pull it over to the viper. I've even had corsairs pulled from off screen by vipers they got too close to.
I don't think abilities like this have much place in this mod as they don't reward control and just provide hard counters to highly microable units. I don't really understand the logic behind putting them in, and hope they get altered or removed ( like the protoss one on sentinels did.) It's not so much an attempt to remove reaver play as it is to give the races a way to counter it. Maaaybe we went overboard with counters. We'll look into this. I LOVE reaver play and we want to encourage it. The ways to shut down the harass already existed before there was ever a thing called a Viper or whatever the Ghost ability you guys made was. There doesn't need to be hard counters. Reavers are already bad as is in PvZ compared to BW, too. Reavers melted Hydras in BW, and the splash doesn't seem nearly as efficient in Starbow. Yah, personally I would rather see intelligent unit positioning and anti air be the required response to reavers rather than just having 2 spells. Also reavers aren't too bad in PvZ, its the hydra pathing that is too good when they come in to bust expansions. Reavers could probably use an aoe increase or a damage buff. Especially with the buff at robotics being 200/200 and only giving a 20 increase. I'd rather see the pathing changed. Groups of units still feel very small and weird in starbow, like in sc2 instead of bw. yeah, they clump really hard while moving (=at the start of a combat) and that messes with all the implemented "BW balance". Worst of all is probably the mutalisk with that forced stacking, so they get shut down by Irradiate, Templar and Archons way too hard and unstacking is nearly impossible - and also does not last for more than until you move again, so, the opponent just has to run a little bit and your whole magic box was a waste of APM.
I don't think that it's that difficult to unspread mutas. If anything it's difficult to keep them together while harrassing, especially if theres a ridge involved.
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On March 06 2014 22:33 Piy wrote:
I don't think that it's that difficult to unspread mutas. If anything it's difficult to keep them together while harrassing, especially if theres a ridge involved.
Well it depends on level of players but you cannot argue that it is much easier to cast irradiate on one muta in a big group then it is to remove that one afterwards in time before the whole group is badly damaged.
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@ Devs I'm curious as to why the engineering bay cannot lift off.
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On March 07 2014 00:47 royalroadweed wrote:
@ Devs I'm curious as to why the engineering bay cannot lift off.
:D and the fusion core !
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On March 07 2014 00:52 Daumen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 00:47 royalroadweed wrote:
@ Devs I'm curious as to why the engineering bay cannot lift off. :D and the fusion core !
I can understand the fusion core as you can fly it away to hide tech and you couldn't do that with physics lab in bw. You can't really hide tech with the engineering bay though. I could be wrong. Maybe hidden missile turrets imba :p
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:47 royalroadweed wrote:
@ Devs I'm curious as to why the engineering bay cannot lift off.
The Engineering Bay used to be able to fly in the Starcraft 2 Beta so all the animations currently exist. I imagine it's not added because you could do some pretty nasty expansion blocking with it and still fly away afterwards.
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On March 07 2014 01:32 iHirO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 00:47 royalroadweed wrote:
@ Devs I'm curious as to why the engineering bay cannot lift off. The Engineering Bay used to be able to fly in the Starcraft 2 Beta so all the animations currently exist. I imagine it's not added because you could do some pretty nasty expansion blocking with it and still fly away afterwards.
I think it's because it's not consistent. Ghost academy, armor, engineering bay, fusion core all can't lift off. And all the buildings that can, command center, barracks, factory, starport, are production facilities.
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EPT
