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On February 27 2014 05:25 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 27 2014 04:32 Kaos_StarCraft wrote:On February 27 2014 04:09 Jermman wrote:
After playing 200+ games of starbow and being cheesed in 90% of them, I have absolutely no desire to play this anymore. Gunna go back to sc2. Obvious troll is obvious. I've played about 100 games, only been cheesed twice. Just because someone has different experience than you doesn't mean he is trolling. I agree but I see what he's getting at, and it's not fair to blame Starbow because he's getting cheesed. I'd like him to elaborate further because the way he phrased it, he sounded like he wanted some change made. For all I know he could have gotten cheesed a lot but here are some alternate explanations: 1) He considers all non-macro games to be cheese. This is flawed thinking however, as in Starbow, there is no such thing as NR 20 minutes unless the players have no clue what they are doing. You are going to get harassed and your workers are going to be killed, SC2 is honestly easier because of this. 2) He is angry because he lost. 3) He is trolling, as others said.
would bet anything, he just has no idea what cheese is... like most of the community that cries about getting "cheesed'
Most people operate under the notion that anything besides a 45 minute macro game is cheese... or that a 2 base push is cheese... its just sad
No idea how many times ive been called a cheeser for using any kind of pressure/harassment. "Stupid cheeser, play me in a real game!" "... i have 3 nexus while ur on 2 base wtf do u want?"
my favorite was a game where i use DT into expand because he has no detection... "Nice DT all-in!" "... i have 3 bases"
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So when the winner of each top3 region play against each other
What server?
Iam gonna assume the AM server cuz thats where the main tournament is i guess?
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Wasn't there mention of possibly not allowing BM players to ladder? Not sure how that would work, but there are definitely a slew of people who are consistently obnoxious.. It's not that I can't handle it, it just kinda takes away from the fun of the game.
People forfeiting before games starting, delaying so that you have to wait a while, etc. Since this is still a somewhat small community, I would just rather not deal with people like that again and again.
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On February 27 2014 04:09 Jermman wrote:
After playing 200+ games of starbow and being cheesed in 90% of them, I have absolutely no desire to play this anymore. Gunna go back to sc2.
I have notice alot of cheese also.
what race do you play?
For example may zergs are doing 12 hatch 13 or 14 pools in all match ups. And then just die to any cheese.
where as 12 hatch 11 pool vs Terran was kinda cheese proof in BW.
9 overpool 11 hatch in ZvP was very safe and forced 2 cannons for toss do the the threat of very fast hydra bust form the pool first.
I see many Protoss going FFE with one cannon. and even when they scout a early pool they still only wall off over making more cannons.
I see terrans dong bunker-less 1 rax expands vs zerg, Or a marine/bunker only opening vs 2 gate goon. Yea you are going to die.
Even so, I would really like to see less cheese
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I just watched the cast of pvz game few pages back and I just got one comment. If you are not screaming Plaguuu in the right moment you are doing it wrong :D
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On February 27 2014 06:30 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:09 Jermman wrote:
After playing 200+ games of starbow and being cheesed in 90% of them, I have absolutely no desire to play this anymore. Gunna go back to sc2. I have notice alot of cheese also. what race do you play? For example may zergs are doing 12 hatch 13 or 14 pools in all match ups. And then just die to any cheese. where as 12 hatch 11 pool vs Terran was kinda cheese proof in BW. 9 overpool 11 hatch in ZvP was very safe and forced 2 cannons for toss do the the threat of very fast hydra bust form the pool first. I see many Protoss going FFE with one cannon. and even when they scout a early pool they still only wall off over making more cannons. I see terrans dong bunker-less 1 rax expands vs zerg, Or a marine/bunker only opening vs 2 gate goon. Yea you are going to die. Even so, I would really like to see less cheese
The thing is, everybody has to figure out the game first. And the only way to figure out the game is to test out the borders of what you can punish/get punished for and not.
And that goes for any form of gameplay, 1base, 2base, 3base...
And, at least I neither have BW experience, nor blindly want to trust in BW builds in a game with different foundations. Maybe that 12h/11p is cheeseproof in BW, yet it may also be that it is not economically enough against 14CC when CCs can drop SCVs.
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On February 27 2014 05:53 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 05:25 Laertes wrote:On February 27 2014 04:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 27 2014 04:32 Kaos_StarCraft wrote:On February 27 2014 04:09 Jermman wrote:
After playing 200+ games of starbow and being cheesed in 90% of them, I have absolutely no desire to play this anymore. Gunna go back to sc2. Obvious troll is obvious. I've played about 100 games, only been cheesed twice. Just because someone has different experience than you doesn't mean he is trolling. I agree but I see what he's getting at, and it's not fair to blame Starbow because he's getting cheesed. I'd like him to elaborate further because the way he phrased it, he sounded like he wanted some change made. For all I know he could have gotten cheesed a lot but here are some alternate explanations: 1) He considers all non-macro games to be cheese. This is flawed thinking however, as in Starbow, there is no such thing as NR 20 minutes unless the players have no clue what they are doing. You are going to get harassed and your workers are going to be killed, SC2 is honestly easier because of this. 2) He is angry because he lost. 3) He is trolling, as others said. would bet anything, he just has no idea what cheese is... like most of the community that cries about getting "cheesed' Most people operate under the notion that anything besides a 45 minute macro game is cheese... or that a 2 base push is cheese... its just sad No idea how many times ive been called a cheeser for using any kind of pressure/harassment. "Stupid cheeser, play me in a real game!" "... i have 3 nexus while ur on 2 base wtf do u want?" my favorite was a game where i use DT into expand because he has no detection... "Nice DT all-in!" "... i have 3 bases"
I think many people just like to call "cheese" when they lose, because to them it sort of sounds better that they lost because of "cheese" rather than they just playing badly.
It's blaming your opponent for playing dirty rather than blaming yourself.
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I play terran: so this is pretty much every matchup
TvT: 1 base goliath drop, 1 base banshee tank all in
TvZ: super early pools or eco cheese in the form of 3 base before pool on maps where its easy like starrunner or andromeda
TvP: 2 gate goon range or 3-5 sentials
Pretty dumb.
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On February 27 2014 06:42 Jermman wrote:
I play terran: so this is pretty much every matchup
TvT: 1 base goliath drop, 1 base banshee tank all in
TvZ: super early pools or eco cheese in the form of 3 base before pool on maps where its easy like starrunner or andromeda
TvP: 2 gate goon range or 3-5 sentials
Pretty dumb.
Are you like complaining?
early pool builds, learn to block your choke properly or use a 2rax FE
3hatch before pool then bunker rush, or go vulture drop with speed or mines
2gate goon is extremely standard, go strong FD style and build marines, 2 tanks, with vulture+mine and try to hold your natural
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Hey how about you shutup. youre assuming I dont know what to do against them. Thats not the point, the point is this is EVERY GAME
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Hey all! Back to laddering for me! Come tune in you like! http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg . Im @ 3000 pts right now. Seem to have hit a wall at this point. So just going to work on getting better! GG GL
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On February 27 2014 06:53 Jermman wrote:
Hey how about you shutup. youre assuming I dont know what to do against them. Thats not the point, the point is this is EVERY GAME
Oh, well as long as you know how to fight against it, everything's fine right? It's not like we're all TLO or SlayerS BoxeR here right?
This is Starcraft you're playing right?
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On February 27 2014 06:53 Jermman wrote:
Hey how about you shutup. youre assuming I dont know what to do against them. Thats not the point, the point is this is EVERY GAME
It doesn't sound like you know what you're doing against them. You just complain when you lose instead of figuring something to counter it. This applies to both Starbow and SC2 so if you're saying you would go back to one or the other and don't expect the same aspects to apply you must be joking yourself :\
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I don't think a lot of protsses are going 2gate goon. I think its alot more likely that what your seeing is 1base nexus upgrade with constant CB on 1 gateway.
And 3-5 Sentinel w/ expand isn't cheese at all either. But simply a style where protoss obtains map control a bit easier against terran.
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Russian Federation610 Posts
On February 27 2014 06:53 Jermman wrote:
Hey how about you shutup. youre assuming I dont know what to do against them. Thats not the point, the point is this is EVERY GAME
I don't see the point, why this so-called "cheeses", being properly defended (as you say, you know how to play against it) can't lead into macro games? I am playing 2-rax reaper in every TvT and TvZ when map allows reaper play, and if my opponent knows what to do it leads into further game with me making the planned transition - continue pressuring with bio with CC bit delayed; switch to mech or put CC down asap after making reaper upgrade, then put down 2 additional rax or go into starport and vulture drop and/or banshee while continuing reaper harras (even though such thing is still beyond my micro possibilities) and then (if opponent holds) put down 3rd base and play macro game. What I'm trying to say that it's not correct to consider every build besides 14 CC/14 Nexus/12 Hatch, or 1 rax CC/1 Gate Nexus/12 Pool as cheese. For me it's good that Starbow provides possibilities to play fast-paced game all the time from the beginning, mostly considering some previous complaints that "Starbow is boring to watch until 15 minutes mark".
Also I rarely see any cheese against me (not considering 2 Gate+Goon Range cause it isn't quite a cheese). It's mostly me applying pressure, except TvP (and even there i'm mostly trying to perform 2 base stim bio timings).
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Russian Federation610 Posts
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I would say the most common "cheese" is probably proxy Reaver on 1 base. But even that is IMO just a really fun and micointensive way of cheesing and if both players are of decent caliber, it rarely ends the game. Instead, the game continues after a fun microintensive start.
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Crying about cheese has always been a thing in the Starcraft scene, especially for players from America / Canada. I admit I've done it too but it really only bothers me when it's a friendly game and someone tries to Ling or Hydra all-in me with the intention of just trying to get a quick win. On a ladder, especially one where if you have enough points then you get invited to the tournament, people are going to try to win at all costs and that's completely fine.
But I definitely haven't gotten cheesed much and I've seen many people say the same. And calling 2 Gate Goon in PvT a cheese when it's the safest PvT build out there is pretty funny.
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Tbh, if I were playing PvT I would just all in or do something to gain an advantage early every game. Until they fix arbiters so that stasis and recall are usable and perhaps do something about the zealots predisposition to clump the mu is borderline unwinnable for the Protoss late game.
As T, if you can get a good +1 timing or +2/1 timing to take map control, then get to a 3/2 timing off 4 bases, you're probably going to win the game. And on some maps, like circuit breaker or destination, it's just impossible for Protoss to damage a terran that positions properly. In BW you could recall, and the threat of that would prevent Protoss from positioning everything at his front, but the inability to recall in starbow really hurts the mu imo.
I would recommend a patch change to the arbiter that makes recall a semi-instant cast like it was in BW (the spell would go through even if the arbiter died very soon after casting. Practically every recall would land) and also drastically reducing the charge on stasis.
It will just make the match up more fun for both sides, because as T currently, unless I fall behind somehow early, I will always win in the mid/late game once I get 2/1, and this is vs the top people on the ladders.
This just creates a scenario where Terran doesn't need to attack. The reason that they did 3 base timing attacks in BW was because of the threat of arbiters and getting recalled into the ground by a 6 base protoss or getting mass stasissed and taken out of the centre. In Starbow, I'm not sure if its the lack of range on stasis or the need to charge it, but it simply isn't a threat anymore. So very campy games are the norm now, and it's quite dull tbh.
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EPT
