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On February 27 2014 07:27 GoShox wrote:
Crying about cheese has always been a thing in the Starcraft scene, especially for players from America / Canada. I admit I've done it too but it really only bothers me when it's a friendly game and someone tries to Ling or Hydra all-in me with the intention of just trying to get a quick win. On a ladder, especially one where if you have enough points then you get invited to the tournament, people are going to try to win at all costs and that's completely fine.
But I definitely haven't gotten cheesed much and I've seen many people say the same. And calling 2 Gate Goon in PvT a cheese when it's the safest PvT build out there is pretty funny.
exactly, if its standard and an expected/accepted strategy... it isnt cheese.
Basically his point is "nobody wanted to play 10 min NR"
And the saddest/most hilarious part is "im going back to SC2" which is the game that has no mid-game. its either cheese or max.
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United States1047 Posts
On February 27 2014 07:46 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 07:27 GoShox wrote:
Crying about cheese has always been a thing in the Starcraft scene, especially for players from America / Canada. I admit I've done it too but it really only bothers me when it's a friendly game and someone tries to Ling or Hydra all-in me with the intention of just trying to get a quick win. On a ladder, especially one where if you have enough points then you get invited to the tournament, people are going to try to win at all costs and that's completely fine.
But I definitely haven't gotten cheesed much and I've seen many people say the same. And calling 2 Gate Goon in PvT a cheese when it's the safest PvT build out there is pretty funny. exactly, if its standard and an expected/accepted strategy... it isnt cheese. Basically his point is "nobody wanted to play 10 min NR" And the saddest/most hilarious part is "im going back to SC2" which is the game that has no mid-game. its either cheese or max.
SC2 was a game? That's a new one for me.
Go back and look at patches from roughly retail rlease in bw moving forward to 1.12 (ending up in 1.16.1) and let me know what you think of cheese, imbalance and qq'ing is all about specifically from retail to 1.12
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Cheesed most of your 200 games? Hate to break it to you man, but maybe you just need improvement. I've played around the same and would not considered myself cheesed even once. Solid, non greedy, reaction based builds will literally remove the term cheesed from your vocabulary. I'm a bit sad to see this victim mentality cropping up in our small community. If I lose it's because I got outplayed. I type gg and watch the replay to see what I could have done better. If you take this approach you may see some advancement in your skills.
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On February 27 2014 07:46 Piy wrote:
Tbh, if I were playing PvT I would just all in or do something to gain an advantage early every game. Until they fix arbiters so that stasis and recall are usable and perhaps do something about the zealots predisposition to clump the mu is borderline unwinnable for the Protoss late game.
As T, if you can get a good +1 timing or +2/1 timing to take map control, then get to a 3/2 timing off 4 bases, you're probably going to win the game. And on some maps, like circuit breaker or destination, it's just impossible for Protoss to damage a terran that positions properly. In BW you could recall, and the threat of that would prevent Protoss from positioning everything at his front, but the inability to recall in starbow really hurts the mu imo.
I would recommend a patch change to the arbiter that makes recall a semi-instant cast like it was in BW (the spell would go through even if the arbiter died very soon after casting. Practically every recall would land) and also drastically reducing the charge on stasis.
It will just make the match up more fun for both sides, because as T currently, unless I fall behind somehow early, I will always win in the mid/late game once I get 2/1, and this is vs the top people on the ladders.
This just creates a scenario where Terran doesn't need to attack. The reason that they did 3 base timing attacks in BW was because of the threat of arbiters and getting recalled into the ground by a 6 base protoss or getting mass stasissed and taken out of the centre. In Starbow, I'm not sure if its the lack of range on stasis or the need to charge it, but it simply isn't a threat anymore. So very campy games are the norm now, and it's quite dull tbh.
TvP "starts" at 3 or 4base. Thats when the game can open up and fights happen all over the map.
Before this stage, it usually is dull.
Statis range is lowered i think, but his charge up seems faster actually, aka he hits statis easier while he casts it.
Recall is pretty bad i agree, actually maybe very bad even.
Not only can the arbiter die and the recall doesnt go off but the units stand in place to after they have been recalled for x seconds.
In general the ladder have so few protoss players, and most of them are not good.
Are you sure you engage a terran "properly"?
You should flank and NEVER attack the zealots in a clump. I think its mandatory to have atleast 2groups with your zealots.
When they die, you back off with your goons. If you dont back off with your goons, it will most likely lead to a lose.
Terran needs to attack against mass expand protoss, and not only against arbiter play
EDIT:
In narrow maps, its ofcourse much harder for protoss. So in general i talk about maps with bigger space.
Its hard for me to talk about lategamebalance in tvp but it seems to favor terran, but at the same time i have seen or played to little of good tvp yet
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What happens if a player is top3 on both ladders when the
tournament is? :O
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Russian Federation605 Posts
On February 27 2014 08:37 Foxxan wrote:
What happens if a player is top3 on both ladders when the
tournament is? :O
Dirtybag is killing Starbow esports =D
Maybe he will represent that ladder where he has the best place?
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 27 2014 08:45 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 08:37 Foxxan wrote:
What happens if a player is top3 on both ladders when the
tournament is? :O Dirtybag is killing Starbow esports =D Maybe he will represent that ladder where he has the best place?
I'd prefer a dirtybag left hand vs dirtybag right hand final.
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On February 27 2014 08:31 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 07:46 Piy wrote:
Tbh, if I were playing PvT I would just all in or do something to gain an advantage early every game. Until they fix arbiters so that stasis and recall are usable and perhaps do something about the zealots predisposition to clump the mu is borderline unwinnable for the Protoss late game.
As T, if you can get a good +1 timing or +2/1 timing to take map control, then get to a 3/2 timing off 4 bases, you're probably going to win the game. And on some maps, like circuit breaker or destination, it's just impossible for Protoss to damage a terran that positions properly. In BW you could recall, and the threat of that would prevent Protoss from positioning everything at his front, but the inability to recall in starbow really hurts the mu imo.
I would recommend a patch change to the arbiter that makes recall a semi-instant cast like it was in BW (the spell would go through even if the arbiter died very soon after casting. Practically every recall would land) and also drastically reducing the charge on stasis.
It will just make the match up more fun for both sides, because as T currently, unless I fall behind somehow early, I will always win in the mid/late game once I get 2/1, and this is vs the top people on the ladders.
This just creates a scenario where Terran doesn't need to attack. The reason that they did 3 base timing attacks in BW was because of the threat of arbiters and getting recalled into the ground by a 6 base protoss or getting mass stasissed and taken out of the centre. In Starbow, I'm not sure if its the lack of range on stasis or the need to charge it, but it simply isn't a threat anymore. So very campy games are the norm now, and it's quite dull tbh. TvP "starts" at 3 or 4base. Thats when the game can open up and fights happen all over the map. Before this stage, it usually is dull. Statis range is lowered i think, but his charge up seems faster actually, aka he hits statis easier while he casts it. Recall is pretty bad i agree, actually maybe very bad even. Not only can the arbiter die and the recall doesnt go off but the units stand in place to after they have been recalled for x seconds. In general the ladder have so few protoss players, and most of them are not good. Are you sure you engage a terran "properly"? You should flank and NEVER attack the zealots in a clump. I think its mandatory to have atleast 2groups with your zealots. When they die, you back off with your goons. If you dont back off with your goons, it will most likely lead to a lose. Terran needs to attack against mass expand protoss, and not only against arbiter play EDIT: In narrow maps, its ofcourse much harder for protoss. So in general i talk about maps with bigger space. Its hard for me to talk about lategamebalance in tvp but it seems to favor terran, but at the same time i have seen or played to little of good tvp yet
Good post. I agree with pretty much everything.
As far as engaging properly, I think I do about as well as can be done. The terran can normally mine up flank routes pretty easily, and just with the fact that zealots don't form lines in Starbow, they are more affected by splash damage, so they really do die fast to mines and tanks, and are softened up for the vultures. Now in BW, 3/2 mech would destroy Protoss ground, but 4-6 arbiters could somewhat equalise things with stasis, which would basically always hit. So it was easier to reduce the tank count, which meant that more zealots would reach the tanks etc.
Do you find you ever get stasised in TvP? My experience is I can either emp or shoot them down with goliaths before they even get into emp range, and even if they do, if they die or get emped the stasis is cancelled. The charge maybe isn't the problem, it's perhaps the range that's more the issue.
I don't exclusively play PvT so I lack experience in the mu also. The only good Protoss you can play regularly on the ladder is rsvp maybe? and he relies on gaining early game advantages most of the time, so if you defend his weird rushes you win easily with a timing attack and if you don't you're too behind to really form an opinion of the actual balance of the mu imo.
When I refer to campy games, I mean that Terran's are often playing split map vs Protoss. You don't, but tbh you're the only Terran who plays the late game like it's BW. The rest either lack the multitasking or just realise it's better not to attack before they're maxed on 3/2 with 4 bases. So the timing attacks from BW are just way later - so you get about 4 mins more of nothing happening before Terran attacks.
I disagree that Terran needs to attack vs mass expanding if it happens at the late mid game stage. If T is on 3 base on most maps, they can generally turtle to 4 or 5. The response to this from Protoss is to take more bases and get more arbiters and storm energy, to ensure a more cost effective trade when the battle happens. The problem is that the battle is rarely ever cost effective now, and is usually a ridiculously one sided affair.
Again, I might be making some mistakes with my control etc, but I think I'm probably one of the better PvT players on the ladder currently and I've spoken briefly to TT1 and read posts by him in this thread that largely agree with the problems I'm trying to raise.
Maybe me and you should knock out 5 games or something after the ladder run is over and see what happens. We seem to be pretty evenly matched and the games are always fun.
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Vikings need to be armored. They out class Goliaths in every way.
With just a few seconds of build time and 50m/50g you get,
Splash vs air. Despicably effective vs Muta, Scourge, and interceptors
More ground dps
More HP
takes less damage do to being med sized.
Can harass workers
Can harass overlords
This all seem a bit much.
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I just want to say, Dirty Bag, i hate you so much. TvT is awful enough as it is lol, but you always find a way to do damage to me, no matter how hard im turtling. More turrets maybe? Its always drops in my main in awkward spots, that 4 of your tanks can just shell away at my buildings, and my units funnel in and get destroyed. You are good, but i hate you!!! and hate tvt lol.
Love Starbow tho, everyday i feel like i have 1 match up im good with, say, tvz, then the next day, its like, o shit, my tvz sucks again. Its awesome, keeps me bettering myself, although i feel like ive hit a wall at this point, i have yet to take a game from someone in the top 10. Ill keep grinding i guess lol. My understanding of the matchups feels lack luster at this point. TvT, i cant ever get to the late game, since i get harassed to death everygame. TvZ for me is incredibly difficult for me right now, I feel like i cant move out after 10 mins, since theres mutas harassing my main all the time, or lurkers everywhere and have to wait for Sci Vessels, by then its like they have 4 bases secured and i get overwhelmed. Although i have played Psy alot lately, lol and its just not fair, he gets so much shit, RedBandit as well, theyve got my # lol. And TvP, im getting better at lol, learning to EMP shit is saving my ass most of the time, and Vultures are awesome for harass.
Anyways, game is sick, will play moaarrr later!
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
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On February 27 2014 10:33 rebuffering wrote:
I just want to say, Dirty Bag, i hate you so much. TvT is awful enough as it is lol, but you always find a way to do damage to me, no matter how hard im turtling. More turrets maybe? Its always drops in my main in awkward spots, that 4 of your tanks can just shell away at my buildings, and my units funnel in and get destroyed. You are good, but i hate you!!! and hate tvt lol.
Love Starbow tho, everyday i feel like i have 1 match up im good with, say, tvz, then the next day, its like, o shit, my tvz sucks again. Its awesome, keeps me bettering myself, although i feel like ive hit a wall at this point, i have yet to take a game from someone in the top 10. Ill keep grinding i guess lol. My understanding of the matchups feels lack luster at this point. TvT, i cant ever get to the late game, since i get harassed to death everygame. TvZ for me is incredibly difficult for me right now, I feel like i cant move out after 10 mins, since theres mutas harassing my main all the time, or lurkers everywhere and have to wait for Sci Vessels, by then its like they have 4 bases secured and i get overwhelmed. Although i have played Psy alot lately, lol and its just not fair, he gets so much shit, RedBandit as well, theyve got my # lol. And TvP, im getting better at lol, learning to EMP shit is saving my ass most of the time, and Vultures are awesome for harass.
Anyways, game is sick, will play moaarrr later!
You are easily the most upbeat person I've ever run across on an RTS game. Fan for life here.
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On February 27 2014 11:04 tehredbanditt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 10:33 rebuffering wrote:
I just want to say, Dirty Bag, i hate you so much. TvT is awful enough as it is lol, but you always find a way to do damage to me, no matter how hard im turtling. More turrets maybe? Its always drops in my main in awkward spots, that 4 of your tanks can just shell away at my buildings, and my units funnel in and get destroyed. You are good, but i hate you!!! and hate tvt lol.
Love Starbow tho, everyday i feel like i have 1 match up im good with, say, tvz, then the next day, its like, o shit, my tvz sucks again. Its awesome, keeps me bettering myself, although i feel like ive hit a wall at this point, i have yet to take a game from someone in the top 10. Ill keep grinding i guess lol. My understanding of the matchups feels lack luster at this point. TvT, i cant ever get to the late game, since i get harassed to death everygame. TvZ for me is incredibly difficult for me right now, I feel like i cant move out after 10 mins, since theres mutas harassing my main all the time, or lurkers everywhere and have to wait for Sci Vessels, by then its like they have 4 bases secured and i get overwhelmed. Although i have played Psy alot lately, lol and its just not fair, he gets so much shit, RedBandit as well, theyve got my # lol. And TvP, im getting better at lol, learning to EMP shit is saving my ass most of the time, and Vultures are awesome for harass.
Anyways, game is sick, will play moaarrr later! You are easily the most upbeat person I've ever run across on an RTS game. Fan for life here.
For srs. He's got a great stream going. Classy Jazz all day erry day.
And it's cool to see someone get visibly better, and it's 100% due to his consistency and relentlessness.
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On February 27 2014 11:24 Fishgle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 11:04 tehredbanditt wrote:On February 27 2014 10:33 rebuffering wrote:
I just want to say, Dirty Bag, i hate you so much. TvT is awful enough as it is lol, but you always find a way to do damage to me, no matter how hard im turtling. More turrets maybe? Its always drops in my main in awkward spots, that 4 of your tanks can just shell away at my buildings, and my units funnel in and get destroyed. You are good, but i hate you!!! and hate tvt lol.
Love Starbow tho, everyday i feel like i have 1 match up im good with, say, tvz, then the next day, its like, o shit, my tvz sucks again. Its awesome, keeps me bettering myself, although i feel like ive hit a wall at this point, i have yet to take a game from someone in the top 10. Ill keep grinding i guess lol. My understanding of the matchups feels lack luster at this point. TvT, i cant ever get to the late game, since i get harassed to death everygame. TvZ for me is incredibly difficult for me right now, I feel like i cant move out after 10 mins, since theres mutas harassing my main all the time, or lurkers everywhere and have to wait for Sci Vessels, by then its like they have 4 bases secured and i get overwhelmed. Although i have played Psy alot lately, lol and its just not fair, he gets so much shit, RedBandit as well, theyve got my # lol. And TvP, im getting better at lol, learning to EMP shit is saving my ass most of the time, and Vultures are awesome for harass.
Anyways, game is sick, will play moaarrr later! You are easily the most upbeat person I've ever run across on an RTS game. Fan for life here. For srs. He's got a great stream going. Classy Jazz all day erry day. And it's cool to see someone get visibly better, and it's 100% due to his consistency and relentlessness.
Haha, damn you guys are way too nice haha. I really appreciate the kind words, just another thing to keep me going!
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On February 27 2014 06:53 Jermman wrote:
Hey how about you shutup. youre assuming I dont know what to do against them. Thats not the point, the point is this is EVERY GAME
On February 26 2014 02:47 Jermman wrote:
Sick patch. Time to go wreck some nerds with early game vulture attacks.
On February 14 2014 00:30 Jermman wrote:
Imo proxy banshee is very strong in all matchups, you just do a seige expand and you can still afford it, just keep your scout scv alive and pick a nice proxy location. In fact the build works really nice in starbow, because at the time you can build the starport you dont have anything else to spend dosh on, its smooth.
So are you cheesing too? Or is it ok if its you doing it..?
People haven't figured out the game yet and its still in beta so units and strategies will change. If you don't enjoy it and don't want to play anymore, thats fine, its not for everyone... but you seem to like it judging by the amount of posts you have here so sorry to say but this comes off as just whining.
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On February 27 2014 11:24 Fishgle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 11:04 tehredbanditt wrote:On February 27 2014 10:33 rebuffering wrote:
I just want to say, Dirty Bag, i hate you so much. TvT is awful enough as it is lol, but you always find a way to do damage to me, no matter how hard im turtling. More turrets maybe? Its always drops in my main in awkward spots, that 4 of your tanks can just shell away at my buildings, and my units funnel in and get destroyed. You are good, but i hate you!!! and hate tvt lol.
Love Starbow tho, everyday i feel like i have 1 match up im good with, say, tvz, then the next day, its like, o shit, my tvz sucks again. Its awesome, keeps me bettering myself, although i feel like ive hit a wall at this point, i have yet to take a game from someone in the top 10. Ill keep grinding i guess lol. My understanding of the matchups feels lack luster at this point. TvT, i cant ever get to the late game, since i get harassed to death everygame. TvZ for me is incredibly difficult for me right now, I feel like i cant move out after 10 mins, since theres mutas harassing my main all the time, or lurkers everywhere and have to wait for Sci Vessels, by then its like they have 4 bases secured and i get overwhelmed. Although i have played Psy alot lately, lol and its just not fair, he gets so much shit, RedBandit as well, theyve got my # lol. And TvP, im getting better at lol, learning to EMP shit is saving my ass most of the time, and Vultures are awesome for harass.
Anyways, game is sick, will play moaarrr later! You are easily the most upbeat person I've ever run across on an RTS game. Fan for life here. For srs. He's got a great stream going. Classy Jazz all day erry day. And it's cool to see someone get visibly better, and it's 100% due to his consistency and relentlessness.
ok, theres no excuse now, I guess I just have to check this stream out lol
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Crank is currently laddering. ><
2700 rating
Should get Starbow and Eros translated XD
Edit: no one queuing with him 
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On February 27 2014 13:58 purakushi wrote:Crank is currently laddering. >< 2700 rating Should get Starbow and Eros translated XD Edit: no one queuing with him
Well I did. With half of his ELO...
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EPT
