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On February 25 2014 06:42 Jermman wrote:
Sure let me click each of my thirty vultures to drop a mine while in the middle of a battle while macroing. Thats going to be possible for the majority of players mhm.
I don't think you know what smartcasting is.
EDIT: To be more clear. Vultures in their current form does NOT have smartcasting. If they would, then they would only plant one mine when you have multiple vultures selected and you command them to plant mines.
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On February 25 2014 05:56 WarpTV wrote:
Lurkers, The smarter pathing for marines hampers them. In Brood war marines had a nasty habit of forming up in a long line for lurker shots even when moving just a few in game units. In BW it took a good bit of micro to line marines up perpendicular to the lurker splash. In Starbow, Units line up perpendicular to lurkers on their own greatly effecting their splash.
Do you think this could be an issue of not using them properly? For example at a ramp (i'm thinking of a video some guy made earlier in this thread showing bio running up the ramp and killing the lurkers), instead of placing them in a line perpendicular to the ramp, you could place a couple right at the top of the ramp and a couple behind them? Seems like that would eat up a bio army heading up the ramp. You could also play with banelings, say place a couple to the sides of the lurkers so if they just stim and try to run past them they get melted by a baneling.
It just seems like we haven't played with things enough to really consider nerfing/buffing that seriously yet until it's obvious it's completely broken.
*edit* Actually, I think the main issue here is thinking lurkers need to be buffed because they're better at holding ramps in bw than they are here. Instead I think we should look at strategic holes that need to be filled and figure out what unit should help do that. Is holding a ramp vs bio super important in starbow? If so, are there any units that can do it well? Can positioning lurkers differently than in bw be a solution?
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Removing smartcasting = I guess it would be a necessary evil, but even if you do change it, people will still complain about the spells themselves.
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Canada11350 Posts
On February 25 2014 06:44 labbe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 06:42 Jermman wrote:
Sure let me click each of my thirty vultures to drop a mine while in the middle of a battle while macroing. Thats going to be possible for the majority of players mhm. I don't think you know what smartcasting is. EDIT: To be more clear. Vultures in their current form does NOT have smartcasting. If they would, then they would only plant one mine when you have multiple vultures selected and you command them to plant mines.
In other words... NOT having smart casting allows simultaneous mine laying... aka faster and therefore better. The same is possible with storms so long as a form of magic box exists in SB.
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About smartcasting: This has likely been proposed before, but wouldn't a possible middle ground be to include some kind of "attempt cost" for casting a spell (e.g. 5 mana) which would not be smartcasted (i.e. all selected units would be drained by this much), but then only 1 unit would actually end up executing their spell? Thus one could smart cast with multiple units selected (friendly for beginner players), but it would be quite costly as all the units would be paying the attempt cost/penalty for each casted spell. Good players, then, could still differentiate themselves by individually selecting casters so as to only incur the attempt cost on one unit at a time.
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I really disagree that defilers are too strong in the current game. If anything I would say they are underperforming.
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I don't like the smartcasting discussion, I feel like we've had it before.
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I dunno, getting defilers out in tvz usually means you autowin right now. Mech isnt even possible because tanks dont splash under swarm.
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On February 25 2014 07:21 wun4 wrote:
About smartcasting: This has likely been proposed before, but wouldn't a possible middle ground be to include some kind of "attempt cost" for casting a spell (e.g. 5 mana) which would not be smartcasted (i.e. all selected units would be drained by this much), but then only 1 unit would actually end up executing their spell? Thus one could smart cast with multiple units selected (friendly for beginner players), but it would be quite costly as all the units would be paying the attempt cost/penalty for each casted spell. Good players, then, could still differentiate themselves by individually selecting casters so as to only incur the attempt cost on one unit at a time.
I really like this idea i think its a good middle ground.
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I also think smartcasting should stay. BW players can play BW or SC2BW, this is for people that think SC2 went too far away from BW and want some of it back but keep new UI and improvements.
And as it was said, no new players will come play it, SC2 is already intimidating to people.
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On February 25 2014 07:33 Jermman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 07:21 wun4 wrote:
About smartcasting: This has likely been proposed before, but wouldn't a possible middle ground be to include some kind of "attempt cost" for casting a spell (e.g. 5 mana) which would not be smartcasted (i.e. all selected units would be drained by this much), but then only 1 unit would actually end up executing their spell? Thus one could smart cast with multiple units selected (friendly for beginner players), but it would be quite costly as all the units would be paying the attempt cost/penalty for each casted spell. Good players, then, could still differentiate themselves by individually selecting casters so as to only incur the attempt cost on one unit at a time. I really like this idea i think its a good middle ground.
Eh, I don't think it's a very intuitive solution and more likely to annoy beginners (or even those below masters level) than anything. But I like that direction of thinking at least.
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Lurkers, The smarter pathing for marines hampers them. In Brood war marines had a nasty habit of forming up in a long line for lurker shots even when moving just a few in game units. In BW it took a good bit of micro to line marines up perpendicular to the lurker splash. In Starbow, Units line up perpendicular to lurkers on their own greatly effecting their splash.
I know you got flamed for this, but my and others I've talked to have had a similar experience. Ling Lurker feels much weaker in some respects, due to the existence of tanky firebats/marauders and the reasons you mentioned, which is probably why so many Zergs are opting for Banelings in the first place. Maybe its a matter of using them wrong, I'm pretty terrible so I'm mostly going off what I've seen decent players do, but it might be something to be looked at as well.
On the other hand they already seem really useful in ZvP so a straightforward stats buff might not be the way to go.
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On February 25 2014 07:41 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +Lurkers, The smarter pathing for marines hampers them. In Brood war marines had a nasty habit of forming up in a long line for lurker shots even when moving just a few in game units. In BW it took a good bit of micro to line marines up perpendicular to the lurker splash. In Starbow, Units line up perpendicular to lurkers on their own greatly effecting their splash. I know you got flamed for this, but my and others I've talked to have had a similar experience. Ling Lurker feels much weaker in some respects, due to the existence of tanky firebats/marauders and the reasons you mentioned, which is probably why so many Zergs are opting for Banelings in the first place. Maybe its a matter of using them wrong, I'm pretty terrible so I'm mostly going off what I've seen decent players do, but it might be something to be looked at as well. On the other hand they already seem really useful in ZvP so a straightforward stats buff might not be the way to go.
IMO lurkers do seem weak right now, maybe not against toss, but def. against Terran. It may have something to do with unlimited marine control groups sniping them too quickly before they can get nice shots off. Back in bw, limited unit selection gave lurkers more of an edge I feel. It's just not the case in SB.
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On February 25 2014 07:32 Jermman wrote:
I dunno, getting defilers out in tvz usually means you autowin right now. Mech isnt even possible because tanks dont splash under swarm.
Absolutely not true.
There is a problem with tank splash under dark swarm, but if you're going bio you are either at an even game or at an advantage vs a zerg on defilers because:
a) Dark swarm has very low duration, making it harder for zerg to turtle enough to get ultras
b) Dark swarm has a really low aoe
c) you can't plague and dark swarm with the same full energy defiler. This makes engaging small groups of bio with crackling defiler harder.
It's really easy to get a huge economy as terran while pressuring zerg if he tries to tech at a normal bw pace. You only lose to defilers if you are very behind in the mid game.
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Hey guys, back to it! http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg . Trying to get my mic to work properly, think its still fucked, massive humming noise, will try to fix at some point lol. Im @ 2500 points right now! GG GL
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On February 25 2014 08:11 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 07:32 Jermman wrote:
I dunno, getting defilers out in tvz usually means you autowin right now. Mech isnt even possible because tanks dont splash under swarm. Absolutely not true. There is a problem with tank splash under dark swarm, but if you're going bio you are either at an even game or at an advantage vs a zerg on defilers because: a) Dark swarm has very low duration, making it harder for zerg to turtle enough to get ultras b) Dark swarm has a really low aoe c) you can't plague and dark swarm with the same full energy defiler. This makes engaging small groups of bio with crackling defiler harder. It's really easy to get a huge economy as terran while pressuring zerg if he tries to tech at a normal bw pace. You only lose to defilers if you are very behind in the mid game.
Not sure about this.
Irradiate suck vs banes.
Zerg opts for banes/lings into hive.
I feel going mass irradiate just doesnt cut it vs heavy baneling use.
So adding dark swarm here is very good, besides tanks suck vs ds completely i feel
so tanks are not an option really other than the 3tank/SV push against lurker play.
@Lurkers
I feel they are weak to. If we compare them to broodwar:
1) All units move alot smoother. Therefore reach their target alot easier.
2) Alot of units have much better agility. The most relevant unit is the marine.
3) The lurker cant stack. In broodwar he could. This means in decent armee size or bigger fights, the lurkers will do less damage. AKA, u wanna burrow that 3lurkers but u cant cuz lurkers are already burrowed underthem->Zerg lose tons of damage.
All this combined my feeling is they are weaker even though they have more health, and more damage.
I would recommend to buff their burrow time.
@Siegetanks
I feel this guy suffer a bit of the same as the lurker.
1) All units move alot smoother. Therefore reach their target alot easier.
2) Some units have more agility. Not as relevant as vs lurkers though.
3) Just to write this to, which is not relevant in this context tho. They are much worse under ds here.
But I dont know what to do about siegetank though,
buff his siegetime? Buff his attackdamage?
Other ppl thoughts about this?
@Unit size
Something to remember is alot of units have bigger size here.
For example, the dragoon, siegetank and zergling i got confirmed are smaller model in broodwar.
I am gonna assume the marine is to, which may affect further versus lurkers.
@Storm
I think people dont really think about this one but when a hightemplar cast a storm in broodwar, he do a small animation on 0.5sec~ before he cast it.
@Carrier
A few small words of this guy:
They cost 100minerals less
They do more damage. I think without attackupgrade terran needs 4goliaths to beat 1 carrier.
Need more testing but wort to think about.
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Hey guys, i had someone asking me for some replays, so i told them to come here, and look for a pack im going to put up. I dont feel like im good enough to put up replays haha, but im a nice guy and want to give that 1 person what they want lol. So ive uploaded every single ladder game ive play on Starbow, which i will link to here. Again, im not good enough for people to learn anything from, BUT, ive played alot of really great players, so maybe thats the silver lining haha you can learn from the people i played against. Here you are! Enjoy.
Its a 7 Zip file tho, i dont have winRar installed.
https://www.mediafire.com/?hyw4uctfsdmicdm
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Do you know what would be cool? If the EROS client displayed a lifetime record vs the player you got matched up with.
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On February 25 2014 13:00 Balthazar wrote:
Do you know what would be cool? If the EROS client displayed a lifetime record vs the player you got matched up with.
oh wow, thats a neat idea ;D
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EPT
