EPTZerg Vs mech. Very nice game
Starbow - Page 176
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Zerg Vs mech. Very nice game | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
However, terrans have no decent aa fighter and it's weird. The sc2 viking is ok The BW wraith and valkyrie combination worked wonderfully. The starbow viking feels really bad. It's not a valkyrie so you can't counter mutas with them, but it's not a wraith nor a sc2 viking either so you can't hunt overlord effectively because they have pitifull single target damage. I'm not sure you can use them against capital ship too. I mean... they're just bad. They can be microed but the only role I found with them is to use 1 or 2 as a support units against muta when vessels aren't available yet, and I'm not sure you'll be able to find more use for that unit. Do you plan to rework them ? (I read you were thinking about reworking the stalker, roaches and maybe banelings). Or maybe they work as intended (support unit). | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
Actually I think that Swarm Hosts can be brought into the game but completely redesigned. Since this mod is kind of new and mods are listening to the community, they have all of the needed tools for making them work the way we want. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On February 13 2014 06:10 ganil wrote: I don't think the mine need to detect cloaked units in starbow. The scan is already easily available and make up for it. However, terrans have no decent aa fighter and it's weird. The sc2 viking is ok The BW wraith and valkyrie combination worked wonderfully. The starbow viking feels really bad. It's not a valkyrie so you can't counter mutas with them, but it's not a wraith nor a sc2 viking either so you can't hunt overlord effectively because they have pitifull single target damage. I'm not sure you can use them against capital ship too. I mean... they're just bad. They can be microed but the only role I found with them is to use 1 or 2 as a support units against muta when vessels aren't available yet, and I'm not sure you'll be able to find more use for that unit. Do you plan to rework them ? (I read you were thinking about reworking the stalker, roaches and maybe banelings). Or maybe they work as intended (support unit). I heard that Vikings are pretty good in the ground mode, never tested it. I guess you are right, but Goliaths are awesome. also, theoretically a skyterran with Nerve Jammers is extremely powerful :O maybe it is intended that terrans have no good anti air fliers. also: Turrets... cheap, strong, placeable everywhere. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9439 Posts
The starbow viking feels really bad. It's not a valkyrie so you can't counter mutas with them, but it's not a wraith nor a sc2 viking either so you can't hunt overlord effectively because they have pitifull single target damage. I'm not sure you can use them against capital ship too. I mean... they're just bad. They can be microed but the only role I found with them is to use 1 or 2 as a support units against muta when vessels aren't available yet, and I'm not sure you'll be able to find more use for that unit. Try getting more of them and use them for harass purposes once Mutalisks are dealt with (w/ speed upgrade ofc). Some units take a while to figure out how to use properly. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 13 2014 07:16 Laertes wrote: No swarm hosts plz, there is no reason to implement a unit that represents so much that is wrong in sc2 and is kind of just the replacement for the lurker in sc2 implemented in starbow. Besides we tried them already, FYI and in a lot of different forms. They were removed along with the colossus about a week before the hypetrain left. Some unit designs are just flawed in certain contexts. Apparantly swarm host is flawed in starbow and blizzard won't rework in sc2. This doesn't make any sense, it is not even close to the Lurker replacement, since the only thing that they have the same is that they need to be burrowed for them to be able to attack. Lurker is fast unit, AoE damage dealer that is also used as assault unit when attacking together with Zerglings, but has great defensive potential. Swarm Host is slow unit with good chunk of HP that has enormous range with Locusts and it is a siege unit because of it. The reason it is a bad unit is that there is no risk when using it, you are sending Locusts across the whole map while they are sitting in the base behind the wall of Spines and Spores. But this is not a Swarm Host thread so I won't continue with this discussion. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On February 13 2014 07:23 Hider wrote: Try getting more of them and use them for harass purposes once Mutalisks are dealt with (w/ speed upgrade ofc). Some units take a while to figure out how to use properly. One idea I had is to take replays that prominently feature the viking (or the stalker, or the roach) and highlight them in a Starbow strategy or vod thread, to give new players some ideas on how to use the unit. On February 13 2014 07:04 Ramiz1989 wrote: Actually I think that Swarm Hosts can be brought into the game but completely redesigned. Since this mod is kind of new and mods are listening to the community, they have all of the needed tools for making them work the way we want. I think that a lot of "badly designed" units from Starcraft 2 would be quite cool in Brood War. For instance, forcefield as a spell on the dark archon could be really cool, since the pathfinding works different and you'd only be able to get one or two forcefields off. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Basically, DT openings are quite strong in the lower levels, but were really an allin build at the higher levels, you almost never saw them in progames because they were so easy to defend against and punish. Basically once you've played against it a few times, you understand what exactly to do to finish the Protoss off immediately defending against the DT rush. You also had to be pretty bad to lose to a DT rush, unless you're Fantasy. In recent times I can only think of two games, Bisu vs Baby during frankenstein-league where the cheese was successful and he killed the comsat with the DT before it came up, and Jangbi vs Fantasy in OSL grand final where Jangbi very intelligently defused mines with a zealot before sending in DT's and winning the game. Both were completely metagamed because a standard Rax FE opening destroys DT openings. The issue was that Fantasy wrongly assumed that his FD opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss)) would stop Jangbi's DTs with mines (not to mention thinking that someone would do such a risky build in a grand final) and Jangbi completely mindgamed him. So no, mines detecting DT's does not exactly stop DT's. However, the issue is that beyond a surprise meta DT opening, DT's are almost useless in the matchup simply because of mines. Bisu used to use DT harassment to great ability but he stopped after players got better at defending against it, with good turrets and mine placement. Also TvP now revolves around much heavier vulture play, making it impossible to harass with DT's beyond drops, or harass in general beyond early game. So TvP got a bit stale in the regard that harassment opportunities became less and less and it started to look like one of those 3 base vs 3 base stalemates you see in SC2, although no where near as bad, at least you had positioning and much more variety of builds, and motherf***ing carriers. With the new scanning mechanic, I think DT's are going to be useless in the matchup after people start improving. You can't deny the comsat, and better pathing will make it harder to defuse mines with DT's. You also have much better walling. So mines not being able to detect dts would be a net positive for the TvP matchup I think because it allows you to harass without needing transport. Maybe it should be highlighted in the unit description so people don't get confused in the transition. | ||
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chocorush
696 Posts
When terran scouts dts, they still build engineering bay/comsat for the most part. Mines are just a supplement to the defense, and I like how they allow you to control space against invisible units without spamming turrets all over the place. My first instinct is that the mech push against protoss late game will be a little too much harder, as the mines won't be as effective in keeping momentum up as terrans if you have to have your science vessels always be so far ahead of your army in order to deal with zealots+arbiters. DT rush shouldn't be a good strategy against people that already scout it, DT's are already instant win against people that react poorly, or don't react - making them even stronger early game seems way more SC2-like than brood war like in terms of design. If you really want DT harrass to be more effective, I would just increase the damage on DT's so that they one shot SCV's like they do to drones, and not trigger the base attack message. (Does this even work in starbow? I'm getting SC2 this week so I can't test it now). That way Terran still needs to pay attention when they know DT's are out, rather than just scan and shut things down immediately. Edit - I take back my thoughts on mines vs. arbiter tech late game. It shouldn't be a factor as long as you have science vessels anywhere near your army, but it does cause a weird dynamic where zealots might not drag mines if terran doesn't have detection. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Other than those things, is there anything you believe is important enough to be included? These can be general tips or Race-specific tips (not match-up specific though). Also keep in mind these are meant to be general enough to survive patches and time (if possible), and only 1 is seen per game, so it can't be a public announcement, like a patch-log or a tournament announcement. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 13 2014 09:58 chocorush wrote: DT rush shouldn't be a good strategy against people that already scout it, DT's are already instant win against people that react poorly, or don't react - making them even stronger early game seems way more SC2-like than brood war like in terms of design. This just isn't true in Starbow, Scan cost is 15 energy, you should always have for at least 1-2 Scans. And this is strategic game, if you see DTs, you know my plan and just ignore it, of course you should be punished for it. In SC2 you would probably lose the game, but in Starbow you could probably get damaged by it but it wouldn't really be instant-loss. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27004 Posts
On February 13 2014 10:08 Fishgle wrote: Hi guys, we're currently working on rewriting the Loading Screen Tips into something more informative and useful for Starbow. We've got tips for most of the important changes (any new units or abilities) and some general things like uphill miss chance, where to find opponents, vods, guides, etc. Other than those things, is there anything you believe is important enough to be included? These can be general tips or Race-specific tips (not match-up specific though). Also keep in mind these are meant to be general enough to survive patches and time (if possible), and only 1 is seen per game, so it can't be a public announcement, like a patch-log or a tournament announcement. I would definitely have a 'Chronoboost is very effective - use it to out-produce your opponent!' or something along those lines. In fact I'd have one for all the macro mechanics, especially Inject as it works so differently for those who are used to SC2 | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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murphs
Ireland418 Posts
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On February 13 2014 10:42 Wombat_NI wrote: I would definitely have a 'Chronoboost is very effective - use it to out-produce your opponent!' or something along those lines. In fact I'd have one for all the macro mechanics, especially Inject as it works so differently for those who are used to SC2 Yup. Each macro mechanic will have its own tip, since they've all changed from their sc2 versions. Examples: - Upgrade Khaydarin Citadel to access Chronoboost and Rift. Chronoboost speeds production or upgrades, Rift teleports up to 5 friendly units to your Nexus. - You can use Chronoboost to increase the attack speed of Photon Cannons! The Queen will probably have multiple tips to explain all its unintuitive (imo) abilities. and the general macro tip: Each race has its own means of boosting worker production: Terran has Calldown SCV, Protoss has Chronoboost, and Zerg has Inject. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
It's 35. Not 15. On February 13 2014 10:08 Fishgle wrote: Hi guys, we're currently working on rewriting the Loading Screen Tips into something more informative and useful for Starbow. We've got tips for most of the important changes (any new units or abilities) and some general things like uphill miss chance, where to find opponents, vods, guides, etc. Other than those things, is there anything you believe is important enough to be included? These can be general tips or Race-specific tips (not match-up specific though). Also keep in mind these are meant to be general enough to survive patches and time (if possible), and only 1 is seen per game, so it can't be a public announcement, like a patch-log or a tournament announcement. Terran: - Overcharge has an increased effect on Barracks! (+100%, Factories +50%) - Shock causes Sieged Tanks to Unsiege. (depends on how long you want to keep Shock into the game, you mentioned you would changed it, but that was 100 internet years ago). - You can Irradiate your own units! It only damages Biological Units. Zerg: - Creep does not give you a Speed-Boost, instead it boosts their Regeneration. (Does it regenerate enemy zerg units too? :o) | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On February 13 2014 11:15 murphs wrote: Artosis is really heaping on the praise for Starbow on his stream. He's genuinely impressed. what did he say? | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On February 13 2014 11:22 Daumen wrote: Terran: - Overcharge has an increased effect on Barracks! (+100%, Factories +50%) - Shock causes Sieged Tanks to Unsiege. (depends on how long you want to keep Shock into the game, you mentioned you would changed it, but that was 100 internet years ago). - You can Irradiate your own units! It only damages Biological Units. Zerg: - Creep does not give you a Speed-Boost, instead it boosts their Regeneration. (Does it regenerate enemy zerg units too? :o) thanks! Yea, creep gives regen to enemy zerg (creep isn't owned by players, only creep tumors are). It also boosts tunneling move speed! As for Overcharge, that'll probably be worded in a way that primarily explains what Overcharge is, and then maybe clarifies its unequal benefit. | ||
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