Starbow - Page 178

They have the same cost as one lurker.

Imagine if zerg send 10lings+1lurker against marines.
1)
Now terran can targetfire the lurker, and then deal with zerglings.
2)
terran just dodge the lurker and while he have dodged it he is now free to stand still and do damage.

Same scenario, but instead of 1lurker, he send 5banelings.
1) Terran will need to targetfire it 5times instead of 1(which is 5times as hard, maybe more since baneling is even smaller than a lurker).
2) If he wanna dodge the banelings, he will need to dodge it all the time till the threat is removed(dead).
Therefore, terran cant rly stand still and do dmg like he do vs lurker play.

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Other problems with the baneling:
Irradiate is not good vs banelings. And against lurkers irradiate is great.
So SV play lose value here(Alot imo).

Just to point out here: SV is designed to keep up with zergs techswitches in broodwar

Tanks: Not fully tested here but i feel they are kind of weak against it.
Tanks doesnt supplement bio here good, so therefore it slows terran down alot and doesnt function very well either in direct fights(early,midgame)
Now i havent tried masstanks against it yet, but i am guessing tanks will be good in that area but thats late midgame/lategame and zerg already have hive and shit(And if terran commits to tanks early, he have not many SVs)


So i have tried vultures, and i feel they are kinda good here but the problem is terran are not meant to do techswitches(they are not designed that way rly), so its very hard to keep up with zerg since he is designed as a techswitcher:
1) You scout the banelingnest, you see baneling morphed. Thats good and all, but zerg doesnt have to commit to the banes at all. He can techswitch to lurkers whenever he want because zerg goes melee upgrades anyway(usually).
So there isnt 100% reliable if terran scouts it.

Not to say, your agression keeps getting you information.
So iam not saying it cant work.

2) As terran, you still wanna scout since there are more strategies zerg can do:
In general if terran wanna be agressive against banelings/lings, he need his scan upgrade pretty fast. And if he scouts/reads zergs strategy->
He will delay his tech, add in way more baracks and go agressive mode. Even add in vults as soon as he plants his fac(if he want to, its kind of good)
Note here, terran with game sense doesnt have to be agressive, but a key point against this style is to keep producting your bio units none-stop.

The concern is that zerg doesnt have to commit to his banelings, he can do a techswitch to lurkers pretty easily or go early ultras. This is different from broodwar because here he have map presence, probably map control hard to say.
With his mappresence/control he go agressive bases.

And to talk about the SV further. Guardians now are a threat ofcourse to, if zerg wanna make it.

Are there viable terran defensive strategies out there against banelings?
Yes, probably.
Are mechswitch good against it?
Yes, it is most likely (if tank get fixed vs darkswarm,and bw mine got added today)

Banelings. I know it's a hot topic, but Banelings are high on the list of units to be altered somehow.

While they're pretty quintessential to Zerg players (and to the race's identity), even 200+APM players are hard-pressed to deal with them effectively. They create many low-risk, low-reward scenario for Zerg, while forcing (predominantly) Terran opponents into high-risk, low-reward scenarios - something you don't want to see, especially early on in games. The fact that they're practically unused in other matchups is also a troubling sign - and something to take into account when looking at the state of the game as a whole.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that baneling play is REALLY REALLY GREAT to watch. Banelings are a spectator's unit - they provide extreme highs and lows, they build excitement and release it very satisfyingly.

Personal Suggestions: There's a number of routes to go here, but even if my suggestions aren't to taste, hopefully something can be done to them - I know they're in a 'good' spot in top-tier ZvT play, but this can't be the sole focus of balance perspective, from a historic perspective (see: LoL vs HoN & DotA playerbases).

What needs to be found is a place for Banelings to come out and play at all levels of play, and in all matchups, without feeling 'shoehorned' into building them. Ideally, this means that they should have some way to reliably deal damage to certain unit compositions (Massed ground units), while an observant opponent should have some way to quickly shut them down.

Route 1: Biggest Baneling is Best Baneling!
Banelings build from larva directly, at a rate of 1 Larva to 1 Baneling. Altering their stats, size, and cost to suit a balance point based off playtesting and math-hammer.

This route mostly aims to even out the risk-reward ratio, while possibly introducing the baneling into ZvP and ZvZ. It also grants more reward for focusing down banelings amidst a swarm of other units, meaning that the Terran players' APM are actually being productive.

Route 2: Banelings gain some sort of movement or delivery mechanic. In generalized terms, this could mean a burrow-move, a 'leap', or even the ability to be fired - or "carped-bombed" - via Overlords.
Any option should require lair tech and an upgrade, at the least. Again, regardless of what you think of my ideas, the main point is that some change needs to be made in order to even-out the risk-reward factor of banelings. Clear-cut benefits and drawbacks to each action you take should be very obvious - for both players - when banelings are on the field.

Risk-Reward should be 50/50 for each player - the outcome depending on skill, map info, and setup, rather than unit composition and high-speed micro. We already KNOW why the banelings have been made - to soft-counter massed ground units. They should be GOOD at that - like firebats are good at killing zerglings, or Marines are good at killing everything.

They shouldn't, however, simply force a player to pay twice as much attention to an engagement simply to 'not lose his entire army'.

Leaping banelings. Personal preference with leap is an Activated Ability with a target location. The Baneling explodes when it hits the ground regardless, but moves much faster through the air.

Burrow-moved banelings. Highly visible ground-swell, and require some time becoming visible to unburrow. Obvious counters to this unit are vision of any kind, but while burrowed can overlap with ground units and have reduced targeting priority.

Overlord "Baneling Bombers". Some form of ability to drop banelings and have them explode immediately, or to fire banelings a short distance, or simply to crash an entire overlord into a location and deal damage based on the number of banelings in it. Obvious counters: Shoot it down. Move away from it. Focus down more overlords and force Z player to horde supply in base.

Okay, so that last option was obviously silly, but I think I made my point - there should be a range of options available to any player in a ZvX matchup regarding Banelings.

Siege Tanks.

A lot of problem in TvX mech arise from the immobility of their mechline, and the resources invested into it. The ability to attack or defend 'safely' makes for long, passive games where elabourate strategies and run-by's have to be performed simply to advance the gamestate.

This isn't bad by itself - on its own, the siege tank is a great unit with a great range of plays and counterplays. The problem comes in with vulture swarms and goliaths.

Interestingly enough, I've found I'd rather watch swarms of vultures and goliaths run around being active than seeing them holed up, protecting 8-12 tanks camping some objective point with their opponent trying to bait out a favourable engagement, or build a counterforce.

So that's: Siege tanks are great on their own. Mobile Mech is great on its own. Together they reach a sort of critical mass of "And now, we wait!" For a numerical comparison, Mech v X games last ~35-45 minutes on average, while you have to look at outliers to find games beyond 35 minutes in most other matchups.

These kinds of games do have their appeal, for sure - massive unit counts, end-game tech, heavy skill and meta-based engagements. However, I don't like watching a player slip up simply because they're mentally or physically exhausted by the game's length and lack of engagement.

There's a certain amount of interaction necessary for players and audience to get emotional gratification out of playing or watching a game, and high-end mech play isn't seeing that.

Various Engagements:
In Mech v Mech, we see a lot of binary play, and games can be decided by decisions like "who scouted whom first?" This is not healthy play, and it's mostly due to tanks.

In Bio vs Mech, Drop play could be viable, except that scouting reveals bio play and from then on Goliath Online discourages drops entirely, especially since it only takes a 3 tanks to fortify an expansion against ground pushes.

Only a few goliaths are needed in key locations to disabuse silly dropships of their droppish notions. You can't cripple mechplay with drops, but you can cripple yourself by buying a dropship instead of a tank.

Transition from Mech to bio is obviously gone; reactors are needed for upgrades, and a single science vessel shuts down mass ghost play. As well, with the Scan prevalence even that's not needed - two more tanks are more valuable instead.

Can mass Battlecruisers save the day? Maybe, but it only takes 16 shots to take one out; 4 goliaths can kill a BC before it can kill a tank, and can easily kite it. Will you have time to transition to BCs before your opponent tank-creeps your base?

Zerg have some of the easiest times against Mech play, I find - ultras and dark swarm can really shut things down, until science vessels get there to mop those pesky defilers up. I hesitate to call ZvMech balanced - at high levels of play it DOES really come down to player skill, with a hint of luck - but I would feel alright saying that it's overbalanced. The entire thing has one real matchup - one direction. Drops get melted by goliaths, spider mines mean that hydras are required. Hydras mean that 2 swarms have to go down in order to create a favourable engagement. 2 swarms mean that 2 defilers get eaten by irradiate.

It's very hard to find a cost-effective solution as zerg, but altering any of the dozens of pieces can easily lead to top-level play breaking down. Meanwhile, players as low as myself, all the way up to PsY, are rolling around in a crapshoot consisting of dozens of builds and varying resource efficiencies, poorly understood meta boundaries, and - at the risk of sounding 'butthurt' - feeling unable to cope with a well set-up tankline.

Protoss have it pretty bad as well; storms are normally their go-to answer for static engagements, but between vultures and tanks, they're often picked off early or pay dearly in order to cast their spell. EMP and Irradiate can cripple entire clumps of units (smartcast is a strong unit, I've heard!) and with many skytoss options missing, there aren't many options open to them (see mech vs mech on why drops get dropped).

The issue is hard to attack. Siege tanks are balanced pretty awesomely in siege mode, and the transition times and siege investments are spot on for what most other matchups can bring. Often the issue of 'omg siege line' can be avoided by early aggression and continued aggression. Starving a mech player on 2base while expanding is the most common tactic I've seen have success - it's rare to see a 4-base zerg or a 3-base protoss/terran lose to a 2-base mech that's being handsomely contained.


Personal Suggestions:
Tanks attack while moving. Alone, an unsieged tank should kill a sieged one without micro. This could be an upgrade, but simply by observing the unit's model AI, it feels like it should be happening naturally. Mech v Mech could be resolved in a number of different ways with this change, while providing other areas from which to remove or alter power.

Tanks take up more space when sieged. Goliaths and vultures have too much of an easy time moving through tanks. Increasing their blockage while sieged would render certain drive-by strategies more viable.

Tanks can't siege on spider mines or burrowed units. Self explanatory.

Ultralisk.

The ultralisk consistently feels underwhelming. A lot of players have mentioned this in games, and so far the only places I've seen it used is against tank lines and some Protoss builds. It's almost never cost efficient, it takes up ridiculous amounts of supply, and it has no defining features.

Personal Suggestions

Other than bringing back the splash damage from HotS, I don't really have any non-outlandish ideas for the ultralisk. However, I'll seriously give 50$ to anyone who can figure out how to fix it (assuming their fix gets implemented)! email me at chrisrrawr@hotmail.com with a link to your post and a patchnotes post containing your fix, and I'll paypal it to you

Scourge.

Seriously, what's going on with these? Same deal as the baneling - they create a poor gameplay environment without enriching either players' experience or providing much benefit when used correctly.

Personal Suggestion:
Split em off like the baneling nest. Provide a movespeed upgrade. I don't really get why the spire lets you build 2 different units when every other unit in the Zerg army requires its own building.

Zerg Bonus Side Suggestion:
Remove the upgrades for Air from the Spire. Put all Atk and Def upgrades in Evo Chamber.

Spire contains upgrades for Mutalisk of some kind (muta regen, no-bounce -> bouncy glaive?).

Greater Spire provides upgrades to Guardian and Defiler (slight spash? A slow? Damage over time?).

Maybe we'd see some use out of these units if players had an incentive to use them, and an incentive to watch them being used.

Psi Storm

Combined with Smartcast, storm is proving to be extremely difficult to deal with for less skilled players. It's also setting the bar high for more advanced players trying to learn the game.

Personal Suggestion:
Remove smartcast and check back after a month to see how it's been.
Channelled with a cooldown. Templar can't move while storm is going. Will eat mana until gone. More risk-reward for everyone! Bonus: If made slightly more mana efficient to compensate the change, templars could potentially soft-counter static armies unless they're focused down - MORE RISK-REWARD FOR EVERYONE!