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4713 Posts
On January 05 2014 21:04 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:27 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day. I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point: Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it? Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them? It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss. I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work. Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win.
Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech.
And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process.
Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
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On January 05 2014 21:40 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 21:34 Qikz wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die. Which brings us back to the entire problem in SC2: Positional play is not rewarded as 'good positioning' means having all your units at the same location at the same time, deathball > non-deathball and thus you always lose when not deathballing. This, combined with the 3 base income cap makes for 3 base deathball games.
That's completely untrue for most scenarios.
You want to split units against bio drops. You want to split units as bio to harass. You want to have mutalisks running berserk away from the rest of your units. You want to roam the map with zerglings. You want to setup small counterattacks as zerg with zerglings and roaches. You want to do zealot runbies and harass. You want your phoenixes roaming the map. You want your hellions roaming the map. You want....
But with Mech vs Protoss you don't have a choice, but to have all your units in one ball. Because it is too weak to split your army against Protoss. It has nothing to do with "SC2's design", it's purely because if you don't have a ball, the more mobile Protoss army just comes in and overruns the smaller parts of your army. And that is the whole problem of Mech TvP. It's viable if you don't make any mistakes and always have the perfect positioning. In reality though, if the Protoss plays active, scouts, harasses and uses various units, you won't have a ghost per immortal or a Raven+Viking per Tempest and you will be out of position more often than in position when the Protoss actually commits, since you cannot be in two locations at once.
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On January 05 2014 21:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes. Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles. In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed. Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
So you consider it fair that now the terran has only one build while the protoss has dozen of them ? Btw I know much more opening than "1g fe 3g robo". That was the "safe macro build" but if the terran wanted to open safe and macro, he just did rax expand double rax gaz. Opening banshee was pretty allinish considering that if you didn't do enough damage, you were far behind.
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blizzard team is jerking off furiously to pro league right now. So happy they're promoting this playstyle, wow, it's gonna make it so much more fun both as a player and a viewer!
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On January 05 2014 21:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes. Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles. In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed. Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
In WoL, Protoss did have more practical openings vs a WoL Terran than Terran has right now against a HotS Protoss.
With the exception of having no units at all or maybe just one or two, a decent Protoss should not die against any Terran before 10 minutes with Photon Overcharge. Any form of 2 rax, 1/1/1 or (cloak) banshee play are all dead.
The 2 rax loses straight up in a Health/DPS race, 1/1/1 is mostly the same with an added vulnerability against Oracles if Vikings are not produced and Cloak Banshee is a coin flip, praying that Protoss did not build a Stargate or Robo.
At the same time, Protoss can throw a legion of 1 base attacks that don't even have to deal a lot of damage to put Protoss ahead because Protoss can expand behind them much earlier thanks to Photon Overcharge. A 1/1/1 push was much more risky for Terran and delayed the expansion much more than several 1 base builds that Protoss currently have at their disposal.
Trying to counter a 1 base attack from Protoss with a single Medivac drop? Photon Overcharge says no.
The MSC also added in a super early Air unit that can attack and provide vision to the high ground.
Blink Stalker plays have become much more deadly purely due to the MSC itself.
Furthermore, the shear threat of Oracles is such that if you don't have 6 marines or an Engineering Bay and Turret complete by 5:00, you are essentially coinflipping unless you were able to 100% rule out Oracle play through scouting.
Now I'm fine with Protoss having a ton of aggressive options, but Terran should have them as well and that is currently not the case in the slightest, all of which revolve around the exact same thing, Photon Overcharge.
The existence of Oracles alone already heavily modified Terran's options in the early game, the Oracle did not exist in WoL so it isn't entirely accurate to say that changing Photon Overcharge will revert PvT early game to what it was in WoL.
As it is, I find it painful to see just how greedy Protoss can play having barely a handful of units and a MSC and then easily surviving any aggression.
For me, I would change the following:
Reduce the range of Photon Overcharge to 9.
Increase the energy cost to 125.
The range reduction means a single Photon Overcharge on your natural doesn't immediately make you safe against everything near your base and it makes the ramp to the main more vulnerable.
In the main, not all your buildings will be secured anymore against Marines and Marauders.
Protoss will needs atleast *some* units in order to hold off such aggression.
The energy cost increase is to remove the double safety net of 'oh, he went and dropped in my main after forcing a PO on my natural, guess I'll PO the main as well'. It also means Protoss can no longer recall and PO instantly at the same time.
The other annoyance is that there is no downside, no cost to using a Photon Overcharge.
In WoL I usually opened with a Banshee as it was a relatively safe opening (1/1/1) that could adapt to what Protoss was doing and it somewhat held Protoss back in their base. (currently Protoss does not have to adapt much (if at all) to what Terran does in the early game thanks to PO)
The Banshee opening didn't have a lot of Bio or an early expand so it had its drawbacks, which is currently what I feel is missing from Protoss.
There is no downside to an MSC or a Photon Overcharge.
Nor is there a downside to playing supergreedy behind a Photon Overcharge.
Maybe a different change would be that you cannot make Probes on an Overcharged Nexus.
That way at least, there is an economic cost to using it.
Should Protoss fear Terran in the early game? Ofcourse they should.
Every player should fear that their opponent is going for early 1 base aggression until you scout otherwise.
In WoL I didn't ever feel 100% safe and cozy against my Protoss opponents.
I felt comfortable knowing my Banshee opening would scout such aggression, but if Protoss actually did throw a 4gate or 3gate Stargate in my face, I had to act quickly to not die to it.
2rax openings similarly could backfire horribly against a 4gate.
I think many Protoss players fearing a nerf of the MSC should look to what the Oracle and the MSC itself have already done in TvP merely by existing.
Both sides should be able to be aggressive and both sides should be able to hold it off IF you scout and adapt properly.
The circle of Aggression -> Greed -> Defensive -> Aggression is currently rather broken in TvP.
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On January 05 2014 21:56 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 21:04 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 05 2014 20:27 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day. I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point: On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it? Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them? It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss. I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work. Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it? Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win. Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech. And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process. Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here?
wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play.
I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
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I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
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I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins.
I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
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On January 06 2014 04:16 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote:Show nested quote +I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins. I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
This is the main point. DK doesn't care about the all-ins.
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On January 06 2014 04:16 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote:Show nested quote +I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins. I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers.
I wonder what would happen if the cost of Msc was simply increased? That would make it less strong both offensively and defensively.
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On January 06 2014 04:20 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 04:16 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote:I wonder when David Kim realises, that it´s not PO that makes MSC absolutely broken. I mean, Timewarp lasts 30seconds, that´s totally fair I guess. MSC is absolutely fine, when used defensively for PO. It just plays a completely retarded role in Protoss allins. I agree with this statement. Using the Msc offensively, like in blink stalker all-ins, is pretty crazy. It's so much faster than the blink stalker all-ins back in WoL, which required observers. This is the main point. DK doesn't care about the all-ins.
If I added the swarm host to the game, and I was buffing mech, I'd be afraid of games going longer than 10 minutes, too. As bad of a viewing experience as this can end up being, they should buff all-ins some more and implement a timer, where you have to kill your opponent before 12 minutes or you have to regame... Would keep the game crazy, action packed!
If time warp were 10 seconds, I'd still wonder if I needed that and if it were too long... a nerf to it would really only affect p vs p, unless maybe you're an all-in player. Even if it were to affect p vs p, at least this change doesn't hurt your ability to make it past the 7 minute mark, unlike like the proposed PO change. But, ofc, that would go against creating "action."
I'd love to see David Kim get fired, just so he can then enter some SC 2 tournaments. Hitman would probably have some competition for cheesiest all-in player. You'd probably see David Kim begging on forums to nerf all defensive structures.
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If you want to tone down Protoss early game, how about nerfing MSC vision? MSC has like 11 sight range. It is ridiculous. Turn that down to 5-6 so that way it has to be near the cliff to support the stalkers. MSC doesn't need massive sight range to function as a mobile town portal.
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On January 06 2014 04:40 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
If you want to tone down Protoss early game, how about nerfing MSC vision? MSC has like 11 sight range. It is ridiculous. Turn that down to 5-6 so that way it has to be near the cliff to support the stalkers. MSC doesn't need massive sight range to function as a mobile town portal.
14. It's more than a mobile scan.
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I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell
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4713 Posts
On January 06 2014 02:06 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 21:56 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 21:04 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 05 2014 20:27 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day. I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point: On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it? Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them? It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss. I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work. Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it? Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win. Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech. And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process. Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here? wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play. I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
I'm not agitated, but I just don't see the point of your posts when its clear that what we are all discussing here is the viability of strategies at the pro level of play.
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On January 06 2014 02:06 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 21:56 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 21:04 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 05 2014 20:27 Destructicon wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day. I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point: On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it? Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them? It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss. I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work. Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it? Who the fuck cares about ladder bellow GM/High Master? Seriously, thats the stupidest argument I've heard. Everything bellow that is irrelevant because, people bellow that threshold can't play properly, either they can't micro well enough to be cost efficient to win fights they should win, or they can't macro enough to make enough units to win fights at certain times they need to win. Yeah sure, I could play turtle mech, but that doesn't prove shit, it doesn't prove that I made it work, nor that its viable, the ladder will always try to work towards me having a 50% win rate so my games will either be stomps where I beat people who have no clue how to beat mech then get stomped by players much better then me, either in terms of mechanics or knowledge of how to handle mech. And Maru didn't win going mech. He won trough harass, the game was nearly over when he killed the first 18 probes, the following 6 he killed where the nail in the coffin for Stats, that game doesn't prove shit. He could have gone follow up bio and still won, hell he could have turtled to Sky terran and probably still have won, that is how far ahead he was.. It also doesn't prove anything because that sort of play is frequently shut down by Korean protoss, but Stats somehow botched it and managed to look bad in the process. Instead of strawmaning my arguments why don't you address them head on? Why don't you explain to me why Koreans don't play mech vs protoss, why after years of training, with all the resoruces and knowledge, they haven't been able to innovate it and make it viable at the highest level? Oh you can't, because you know I'm right, you know its crap, it isn't viable outside the niche of catching your opponent off guard and hoping he doesn't know how to handle it. So instead you deflect with stupid and pointless arguments, like players that haven't ever won a tournaments use it on ladder with great success? How is that even relevant to the pro SC2 scene that we are discussing here? wowwowwow, don't get so agitated mate. I was never talking about the pro scene, which you could see in my last post because i'm saying "I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder". even if the top koreans don't use the strategy. I'm pretty sure bio is better at the level of top koreans because of increased microability, but that doesn't mean it's also instantly the only possible way to play. I'm saying this because a lot of balance whiners take "top koreans don't use it" as an argument as to why they can't use it. And that is just factually untrue, as shown in my previous posts. that's my point.
Most of the people that ask for mech buffs on TL have played and are playing mech in their ladder games. When one talks about "viable" strategies one talks about the pro level, mostly from a spectators perspective. And Koreans do not prefer bio because of "increased microability" but because that is the only thing that works. Where mech IS viable (eg. TvT) Koreans very often use it. The Kespa Terrans probably much prefer mech to the twich reflex bio anyway.
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Meh, I wish they would address the current meta-game of oracle and blink all-ins. Every TvP I watch or play currently seems to involve either blink or oracle, especially at the pro level. Today´s Proleague was good example since all of the games included either blink or oracle. Is this really the kind of meta-game Blizzard wants to see in TvP?
This is what is forcing terrans to play in a very limited way, which is hurting the match-up.
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On January 06 2014 04:42 Fjodorov wrote:
I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell
That's quite a lot of nerf's to one unit at all once, I'd say that definitely isn't going to happen. Not to mention, while all you guys are complaining about the MSC, Terran's have been completely wiping out Protoss since the start of the 2014 pro circuit, just look at the results and it's extremely balanced right now. And Terran's have actually been switching things up for once!!!! whattya know doing the same thing over and over again is predictable and easily countered?!?!?! who woulda thunk it?
But anyway, in the ProLeague matches we even saw Terran aggression early on in about 50% of the matches, even one game before PO was even ready to cast and ended the game! Say whatt?!?! And the sOs vs TY game constant terran aggression and a revert back to the WoL-esque heavy marauder style against zealot/archon/storm was extremely powerful, especially sniping bases down in 10 seconds which PO has no effect on whatsoever. Another game we saw HeroMarine vs Harstem where he went heavy marauder/marine/medivac while mixing in Hellbats blueflame to deal with the mass zealots/storms soaking up damage and doing massive dps to clumps of zealots. So Terran's are starting to switch things up, and you are also seeing Terran's able to defend blink all-ins, I think 75% of the blink all-ins in ProLeague so far have been dealt with. It's almost obvious it's going to happen on certain maps and just preparing correctly (like any defense of early agression/cheese) allows you to survive if you execute properly. Terran's actually having to switch things up isn't a bad thing and does not justify nerfing a Protoss unit imo, it's barely been 2 months since Protoss won any major tournaments at the end of the year, and Terran's/zerg's as well I've forgotten to mention them, are already figuring them out and dong extremely well. Especially on the new map pool
I honestly think this is the most balanced the game has been in awhile now, we should just chill and not fuck anything up and make some major change that completely shifts the game. I would love to see a MSC sight-range nerf, that is logical and helps a lot, and would actually force Protoss to rethink bringing it along in every fight, or being super aggressive with it all the time imo. It's logical and not overly drastic and reactionary to just negative nancy's who should probably focus on their own gameplay before complaining about balance.
/endrant
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On January 06 2014 05:35 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 04:42 Fjodorov wrote:
I agree with the ppl suggesting MsC vision gets reduced rather than this PO duration nerf. I would also like to see energy cost for all the MsC abilites to go up. Timewarp could use a duration nerf aswell That's quite a lot of nerf's to one unit at all once, I'd say that definitely isn't going to happen. Not to mention, while all you guys are complaining about the MSC, Terran's have been completely wiping out Protoss since the start of the 2014 pro circuit, just look at the results and it's extremely balanced right now. And Terran's have actually been switching things up for once!!!! whattya know doing the same thing over and over again is predictable and easily countered?!?!?! who woulda thunk it? But anyway, in the ProLeague matches we even saw Terran aggression early on in about 50% of the matches, even one game before PO was even ready to cast and ended the game! Say whatt?!?! And the sOs vs TY game constant terran aggression and a revert back to the WoL-esque heavy marauder style against zealot/archon/storm was extremely powerful, especially sniping bases down in 10 seconds which PO has no effect on whatsoever. Another game we saw HeroMarine vs Harstem where he went heavy marauder/marine/medivac while mixing in Hellbats blueflame to deal with the mass zealots/storms soaking up damage and doing massive dps to clumps of zealots. So Terran's are starting to switch things up, and you are also seeing Terran's able to defend blink all-ins, I think 75% of the blink all-ins in ProLeague so far have been dealt with. It's almost obvious it's going to happen on certain maps and just preparing correctly (like any defense of early agression/cheese) allows you to survive if you execute properly. Terran's actually having to switch things up isn't a bad thing and does not justify nerfing a Protoss unit imo, it's barely been 2 months since Protoss won any major tournaments at the end of the year, and Terran's/zerg's as well I've forgotten to mention them, are already figuring them out and dong extremely well. Especially on the new map pool I honestly think this is the most balanced the game has been in awhile now, we should just chill and not fuck anything up and make some major change that completely shifts the game. I would love to see a MSC sight-range nerf, that is logical and helps a lot, and would actually force Protoss to rethink bringing it along in every fight, or being super aggressive with it all the time imo. It's logical and not overly drastic and reactionary to just negative nancy's who should probably focus on their own gameplay before complaining about balance. /endrant
as I said, PO is totally fine. And 2014 is very young to call. Pro League generates a lot of imbalanced matches in terms of skill of the participating players. To take this into main account for a balance discussion is very questinable. And with the way sOs performed after his blizzcon win, you can definately say, that this was a well timed fluke by him. He played bretty badly before and after the tournament. He had his moment at the right time and there was quite some luck involved too. I wouldn´t take him as the excample of saying: "look! he is losing games! protoss is so weak!". There are so many protoss players I see much stronger atm than him.
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I don't think PO is fine, it allow the protoss to play way too safe and greedy so he ends up teching much faster. The protoss should have more than one gate before teching to HT imo.
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EPT
