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There's all kinds of 1 base shenanigans that Protoss pull on Terran, but Terran can't do one because of 1 ability, naming no names.
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On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream
As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi.
immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
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4713 Posts
On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
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On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable.
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On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd.
If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it?
Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them?
It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss.
Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
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On January 05 2014 20:33 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable.
Putting mech in a box to where it's only "mech" units is pretty retarded. Why can't terran come up with a strategy that utilizes or can draw from every unit at their disposal? Ruling out those units before you even begin the game already puts you at a disadvantage. Just like saying "Protoss have PO so Terran can't do any agression" is already putting you at a disadvantage, because PO isn't a save all or stop all ability. You can't PO the whole map, you can't PO everybase in the early game, and PO doesn't last forever, and MSC doesn't spawn with enough energy to cast it.
Watching the TvP matchup in recent Pro matches, it's actually extremely balanced and results have shown this as well, just look at the matchup in Proleague atm. There's a lot of people overreacting and it's really annoying that Blizzard is going to even suggest making changes based on the whining of "fans" instead of actual research. I'm hoping they won't do anything stupid.
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Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
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On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
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On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Any competent terran defense won't lose more than 7-8 SCVs either versus protoss cheeses, it's all about catching your opponent off guard.
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On January 05 2014 20:43 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:33 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? If no Koreans use it, it means precisely that it is trash and unstable (at pro level), regardless of what an NA GM player with 0 tournament showings has "proven". GoOdy was wining tournaments in WOL by playing mech exclusively yet no one was dumb enough to claim that was evidence for mech being viable. Putting mech in a box to where it's only "mech" units is pretty retarded. Why can't terran come up with a strategy that utilizes or can draw from every unit at their disposal? Ruling out those units before you even begin the game already puts you at a disadvantage. Just like saying "Protoss have PO so Terran can't do any agression" is already putting you at a disadvantage, because PO isn't a save all or stop all ability. You can't PO the whole map, you can't PO everybase in the early game, and PO doesn't last forever, and MSC doesn't spawn with enough energy to cast it. Watching the TvP matchup in recent Pro matches, it's actually extremely balanced and results have shown this as well, just look at the matchup in Proleague atm. There's a lot of people overreacting and it's really annoying that Blizzard is going to even suggest making changes based on the whining of "fans" instead of actual research. I'm hoping they won't do anything stupid.
Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't say anything about using what units nor about TvP balance.
As far as why don't Terran come up with strategies that utilizes every unit, you have 2 choices.
1)play as Terran at a decent level and you will find out
2)trust the pros that they know better then you
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On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
u know the build was there before hots came out and protoss dealt with it fine wo photon overc, stats just handled it badly
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On January 05 2014 20:27 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. Yes, actually Koreans not using mech is a sign that its trash and unworkable in TvP. Consider that the Koreans have team houses where they can practice one single strategy in a single MU over and over and over again if they want to perfect it, and then they grind tons of ladder with it to give it trial by fire. There are far more Korean terrans playing the game overall, they are way higher skilled then foreign terrans, their competition and team mates are way more skilled and organized then foreigners and to top it off they practice way, way way more per day.
I'm not saying it is better than bio at korean levels. I'm sure koreans with their sick multiasking and APM can better utilize bio in a way that makes it seem unstoppable, like TY vs sOs today. What makes them want to commit 1000's of hours into a new way of playing? Which brings me to my next point:
On January 05 2014 20:35 Kakaru2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? On January 04 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff. And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up. Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio. And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech. healing shields takes longer than making a new tank. And yes, with enough storms everything dies, but that's why you have ghosts. Everything has a counter. It's like saying that making bio is useless because 1 storm will kill everything. That's why you have ghosts and that's why you can micro your units. You can target fire with tanks, you can snipe, you can EMP, there are enough ways to deal with both storm and colossi. immortals are the hard counter to tanks indeed. But that's the beauty of hellbats: they're not armored. So if you blanket EMP the protoss army then all archons are dead, all immortals get killed by tanks because hey, immortals are armoured and tanks do bonus dmg vs armored, and you meanwhile just lose hellbats which you can replenish. Stalkers die to tanks, zealots die to hellbats, colossus die by tanks or a few vikings and templar get target-fired, sniped or EMP'd. If things are in real life the way you described them in your post then why isn't a single Korean pro using this imba strat and destroying the protoss GMs? You should write to Blizzard that instead of nerfing Protoss, which clearly cannot handle your described mech army, they should buff it? Did you stopped for a minute after typing your post to check if things are really the way you presented them? It's obvious to all that tried it that mech ATM cannot handle Protoss. Is warhound/haywire missiles the only viable answer considering SC2 design limitations? Are there small fixes to existent units that could be made to empower mech? I'd say let Blizzard figure it out but until that time that the changes go live then stop pretending that mech already is on the same level with Protoss.
I am not saying in any way that mech is "an imba strat" in any way shape or form. I am merely saying that it is very much viable on your ladder. And that just because koreans don't use it, doesn't instantly mean you can't use it on ladder either. Instead of whining for balance changes and dismissing anything that isn't used by your glorious korean gods, maybe just try it and make it work. Because until you get to the top of GM, it is proven that it is viable. You don't have to wait for koreans before you try new stuff yourself. You can make your own playstyle if you want to make it work.
Also, Maru just used mech vs protoss. Not in the way we are discussing here, but he was certainly using it. Does this mean it is now viable because your korean gods used it?
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On January 05 2014 03:30 lukem wrote:
I hope everyone is keeping in mind how much these changes will ultimately effect Allins specifically reviving the 1/1/1. All of these changes need to be an upgrade at the armory or something.. You could go with the + dmg to shields but at the very least make it somewhat mid to late game upgrade to prevent this from just being a straight allin buff. Maybe I'm just terrible but good terrans who don't use their ghosts sloppy create some of the most fun matches by having that late game micro battle.
Also I have no idea why po is being nerfed instead of the absolutely insane oracle. I play toss and that unit is stupid
Everybody instantly screams 1/1/1 the second there's talking about a buff to any of Terrans units - will you keep in mind Overcharge gives you 120/80 seconds of free teching and unit producing, Maps are much larger, you start with much better vision, Hallucination gives a better scout, etc.
Buffing tanks won't mean 1/1/1 is suddenly unbeatable, thinking 1/1/1 is a strong argument to not buff anything Terran is pretty stupid.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes.
Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles.
In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed.
Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of shit in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" shit we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
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On January 05 2014 20:59 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes. Any competent terran defense won't lose more than 7-8 SCVs either versus protoss cheeses, it's all about catching your opponent off guard.
In that game Stats made a terrible read based off what he saw to the point where I wonder why he even bothered scouting in the first place if it wasn't going to affect his build at all.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses?
I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die.
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On January 05 2014 21:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work. Bla, bla, bla. Any competent defense wouldn't have lost more than 7-8 Probes. Same goes for banshee openigns in wol (not viable anymore due to photon overcharge), wol style hellion/marine/medivac pushes, widow mine drops, dt openings and oracles. In wol it was terran that had infinity one base openings that were viable while toss was forced into 1gate fe into 3gate robo every game (except on blink friendly maps). I don't mind that things have changed. Most importantly, the whole goal of the msc is to give toss players a strong defender's advantage to circumvent the glorious pieces of !@#$%^&* in game design that are warpgates and sentries. Removing that means putting toss closer to the "either play super passive or super cheesy" !@#$%^&* we've seen for years, so it's not a simple fix at all.
Not really true. Starport openings really weren't viable in WOL either. You may be thinking about 2010 where ppl had no idea how to play.
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On January 05 2014 20:55 KingAlphard wrote:
Maru just showed how easy it is to make a ton of damage to a Protoss with photon overcharge. The real problem here isn't PO but lazy terran players who prefer whining over learning how to make a push work.
Yes, all the lazy player play terrans... The real problem is lazy protoss players that think they can't play without a 60 second PO. Oh no, 1 of my PvP builds will no longer work vs aggressive openings, what will I do?
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On January 05 2014 21:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 20:08 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 05:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you? Yes, I actually play mech TvP quite a bit since recently. I learned all that from Furbibord's guide and Lyyna's guide and in the strategy section and HTOMario's stream As for pro games, I believe Happy used it a few times. But no, no koreans, which is probably what you're getting at. But the fact that no koreans are using it doesn't instantly mean it is completely trash and un-usable. HTOMario has proven it is at least viable up to GM, which means 99% of people in this thread saying it is trash can make it work. Have you actually ever played more than 1 match with TvP? Have you tried putting some time into it to make it work and learn the strengths and weaknesses? I've entirely switched back to BW now but still keep up to date with the SC2 patches and what have you but the main issue with going mech TvP (which I did in every single game since the beggining of the WoL beta) is that against pretty much every race, due to the weakness of mech you're playing from behind every single game and at a tournament level that isn't necessarily a viable thing to do. Mech needs to be stronger to allow not only faster timing pushes but also have the ability to defend your bases atleast for a little bit without needing to have every single unit you have in a huge clump or you die.
Which brings us back to the entire problem in SC2:
Positional play is not rewarded as 'good positioning' means having all your units at the same location at the same time, deathball > non-deathball and thus you always lose when not deathballing. This, combined with the 3 base income cap makes for 3 base deathball games.
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EPT
