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I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
Just out of curiosity, what stopped that boringness from happening in BW? Was it the fact that turtling on 3 base meant giving up income? Was it the fact that no mobile alternative existed for Terran, but Protoss had enough tools for backstabbing to make the matchup fun to watch? Or some combination thereof?
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I am kind of lost. Last couple pages has been about mech viability/why terrans don't use ghosts/etc. Regardless of what people 'think' or 'theorize' the viability of mech, that's not something that has to be answered now. Obviously, it can be up for a discussion but this is for players to decide, learn, and adapt. (a.k.a. there's no point in talking about future meta)
Goody's main point was the discussion of changing the tank's each attack to be 2 shots. And this doesn't seem like anyone is having a problem with. TvZ will be barely affected, in TvT tanks are used generally to splash marines in marine & tank comp or in mech both sides have same 'buffed' unit so there shouldn't be a balance whine on that. It will change TvP, esp the fact that toss just can't mass immortal and a-move into a well position line of tanks.
imo, I don't think this will suddenly make mech comp hugely superior to bio and people only start using mech cuz it's going to give them 90% win rates. This will allow diversity to toss as well since now they can pull off air-toss and they are not 'forced' to turtle every game from the 2 medi timing since only hellion harrass will come from a mech user (which can be dealt with like how it is now, cannons, msc). They can do a faster expo when they think/know terran is going mech and it won't be always terran trying to bash toss's face early/mid game then toss coming out of base with deathball and trying to kill terran. So there can be two sides within each map as who get to be the defender/aggressor due to the builds they chose, not due to the race they chose.
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
I don't think so. Macro TvP can be a huge turtlefest, but even so there are opportunities for both players to make the game exciting with harass. I'm not saying we should aspire to macro TvP, but that it's possible to do turtle games badly and still not lead to Infestor/Broodlord style awfulness.
Mech should win head-on fights, but leave room for the opponent to harass. Similarly mech should have lots of consistent harass options, like what Vultures were in BW. With joined upgrades, Banshees look like an ideal candidate for the job, honestly.
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If anyone knows mech it's goody. Well thought out suggestion.
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On December 03 2013 23:57 Salient wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the "Dedicated Balance Discussion" thread?
How is this a thread, not to sound mean but this shouldn't be here, how as admin not moved... TL has made a big deal about threads like this.
(Dedicated Balance Discussion) is where this belongs
Balancing Thread esp one like this just creates a flame war
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
I have to disagree with you here. When meching against a protoss you need to attack all the time. You need to be the one not allowing protoss to get up to 5 effective bases, because skytoss is a way superior late game composition and the tank buff doesn't change that. Whenever I run into mech in ladder the only way it ever "works" is if my opponent constantly attacks me with hellions and banshees. A turtling mech player is an auto win for the protoss.
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On December 04 2013 14:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran. Just out of curiosity, what stopped that boringness from happening in BW? Was it the fact that turtling on 3 base meant giving up income? Was it the fact that no mobile alternative existed for Terran, but Protoss had enough tools for backstabbing to make the matchup fun to watch? Or some combination thereof?
There were timing which mech is incredibly powerful so they can do timing. In sc2, there just so many unit that counter mech that there are literally no timing window for mech to be aggressive. Protoss has some vulnerability timing to tanks but it not that big of a timing and largely figured out (notice how 1-1-1 was powerful can be). Vulture also give terran some sort of map control so terran is always moving around the map.
BW mech was less boring because you had more option to be aggressive. You can also do drop which were really powerful. Having 1 tank + 2 vulture inside your base and you wana just rip your computer screen off. Vulture drop mine to secure position for tank. This also make cannon not shut down harassment. Doing a tank drop in sc2 is a joke and is one of the most cost ineffective thing in the game due to warpin and many other factor. Therefore once protoss put cannon, they are pretty much safe since the only form of harassment is hellion and sometime banshee but warpin shut down both.
Largely I think what make bw mech more interesting is because protoss are afraid of the terran mech ball. So they have to be aggressive either by expanding and abusing their map control early on. They cant just make X unit to counter mech. They have to abuse mobility and therefore is more form of aggression. They fear the mech ball so much that they have to delay the terran tank from getting into good position and seiging their base so they most always have to force terran to slowly seige push across map.
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Hello,
Zerglings do have 35 Hp, so they get oneshotted by a Tank now unless they have a Armor upgrade.
Why does this matter? On 2.8 Atk Speed Siege tanks can take 2 Shots on Zerglings, therefore 2 times Zerglings die. With 1.4 and less Damage they could take 3 Shots which doesnt kill Zerglings on the 3rd Shot. (Why can they take 2 before and now only 3 shots? First shot Happens instantly so CD doesn't matter on the first Shot. So if you have 2.8 after this, the new version shots 2 times in that time and the old one 1 time in that time.) This would reduce the dmg dealt versus Zerglings signifcantly and would be a huge Nerf to mech/siegetankcompositions in TvZ.
You can't simply reduce the Dmg and keep it on the same DPS you have to see the Shots taken to kill something. The Instant first shot is very Important for Siege tanks in TvZ.
Next example: Roaches have 145 HP(Armored) and need 3 Shots to be killed now. (5.6 Seconds in Siege Tank range)
New Siege Tank: 6 Shots (7 Seconds in Siege Tank range)
Infestor 90 HP(Armored): 2 Shots Old Siege Tank (2.8)
4 Shots New Siege Tank (4.2)
Broodling 30HP: 1 Shot Old Siege Tank
2 Shots New Siege Tank (1.4)
Baneling 30Hp: 1 Shot Old Siege Tank
2 Shots New Siege Tank (1.4)
TvT:
Marine 55HP(Combat Shield not Stimmed): 2 Shots Old Siege Tank (2.8)
4 Shots New Siege Tank (4.2)
Goodbye Siege Tank <3
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
I actually enjoyed BL/Infestor, but that's because I saw infestors as tanks and ling/creep as spider mines/vulture.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 04 2013 15:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran. I actually enjoyed BL/Infestor, but that's because I saw infestors as tanks and ling/creep as spider mines/vulture.
It wasn't a deathball though
more like a death noodle
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On December 04 2013 15:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran. I actually enjoyed BL/Infestor, but that's because I saw infestors as tanks and ling/creep as spider mines/vulture.
imo the best kind of infestor bl ZvT were the uber fast hive into broodlord infestors.
terran bio can actually fight toe to toe due to better upgrades, drops are extremely deadly because zerg rushed hive and GS and BL and won't have spines and spores to defend all the drops and the 4th is hard to hold for zerg.
it's awesome to watch a terran cracking the zerg's slow deathball defense and break the whole defense wall down with drops, surrounds etc
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
This surely is the reasoning of the blizzard developers. My only counter-thought is that early/mid game terran isn't nearly as safe as Zerg was in WoL on that particular map pool - and that could create a dynamic wherein terran could be manoeuvred around before they hit the ideal 1a army. On the other hand, hitting 200/200 in sc2 is orders of magnitude easier than in broodwar. Perhaps viable bio-mech is a more realistic goal that pure mech.
Edit: gifting goody gold has granted me super santa. Nothing can stop me now.
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I just watched the tail end of Avilo's stream and he basically ranted/whined about Protoss the entire time. My question is, are a lot of people like that? Is that something common in the SC2 community? I get wanting to vent and stuff, but the amount was so staggering, haha.
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On December 04 2013 15:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran. I actually enjoyed BL/Infestor, but that's because I saw infestors as tanks and ling/creep as spider mines/vulture.
And you where sober at the time?
On December 04 2013 15:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran. I actually enjoyed BL/Infestor, but that's because I saw infestors as tanks and ling/creep as spider mines/vulture. imo the best kind of infestor bl ZvT were the uber fast hive into broodlord infestors. terran bio can actually fight toe to toe due to better upgrades, drops are extremely deadly because zerg rushed hive and GS and BL and won't have spines and spores to defend all the drops and the 4th is hard to hold for zerg. it's awesome to watch a terran cracking the zerg's slow deathball defense and break the whole defense wall down with drops, surrounds etc
Wow I think we need BL-Infestor back then eh? The most hated comp in rts history....
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Mech is boring to watch, boring to play against, and probably boring to play as well. I'd rather see a redesign of the way a different composition would work, rather than making it easier to play boring games. We've already got enough slow moving globular strats out there.
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On December 04 2013 15:48 tshi wrote:
I just watched the tail end of Avilo's stream and he basically ranted/whined about Protoss the entire time. My question is, are a lot of people like that? Is that something common in the SC2 community? I get wanting to vent and stuff, but the amount was so staggering, haha.
Avilo is known for behaving like that. He whined when terran was unanimously considered overpowered. He whines now. he will always whine.
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The real problem with Tanks (in both TvP and TvZ) is that they are actually terrible at defending multiple locations WITH SMALL NUMBERS. They get wrecked against equal supplies of lings/roaches/hydras/zealots/stalkers/immortals until 50/60+ supply. If they did MORE damage with a single shot AND had a slower rate of fire two things would happen. 1. Better at defending in small numbers. 2. Not as good in huge fights due to slower rate of fire and severe overkill.
Please blizzard! Double the base attack while decreasinh the rate of fire by half.
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tanks are broken as all hell anyway, have been since the game came out, just deal with it
use ghosts etc, as a Pro player you of all people should know how to adapt...
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On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't think you can make mech both viable and balanced in SC2, goody. Not without making the game incredibly boring and having it automatically nerfed 3-6 months later because of the community backlash.
I don't play the game anymore so I have no reason to be against mech or your style anymore.
This is my argument: Mech is a slow moving composition, the same sort of composition as Broodlord/Infestor. If you want to make a slow moving composition viable in an RTS game, you have to make the slow moving composition more efficient than the normal faster moving compositions.
We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012.
Unfortunately, you know just as well as me that when an objectively superior composition exists in SC2, players tend to always go for the 200 max out before they want to fight army vs army. This is what every shitty broodlord/infestor patchzerg did in 2011-2012. They took 3 bases and rushed for 200 while camping behind static defenses because they knew their composition was superior (it wasn't critical to stop opponent from expanding to 4-5 bases).
This is the same as your strategy with Mech vs zerg and probably versus terran as well. You slowly take 3-4 bases and camp until you are close to 200 before you allow any action to take place on the map. The only problem for you is that mech isn't as strong as BL/Infestor used to be, so you don't have a bunch of zergs and protosses suiciding into you in the midgame like people used to do versus BL/Infestor.
Now... if Blizzard were to buff mech even more and make it a viable composition... that would mean mech would have to be a more cost efficient composition than everything else because mech is slow moving... and that would mean every terran would go for the slow, safe, 200 goody game before they risked any big engagement.
You would see such an explosion of whine everywhere that mech would only last a maximum 3 months before being nerfed again. Because if you make mech viable in SC2, that means you have simply created the equivalent of BL/Infestor for Terran.
I don't buy that Terran mech is like brood+infestor because it's 10x easier to take advantage of tanks/mech in SC2. Tanks can't shoot up, and vikings are always a liability because of how anti-air/anti-ground counters work in SC2.
The difference is brood/infestor with OP fungal in Wings you could not micro against at all. There was zero room once fungalled, and the composition consisted of all air units.
With Terran mech, you can micro vs tanks if you split up your units, flank, or make concaves. You can micro vs seeker missile, and you can also micro vs vikings.
Mech is very susceptible to air, whereas brood/infestor was not so much because of that insta-fungal on anti-air units like blink stalker or vikings.
Mech also has infinitely more counters than brood/infestor which had no counter. Blinding cloud, tempest, carriers, broodlords, swarmhosts, and the currently over-efficient-vs-tanks-immortal. The only thing that countered Wings brood/infestor was mass vikings + good seeker hits from Terran, or vortex from the mothership from Protoss. That was basically it.
The interesting thing about Terran mech being viable is Zerg and Protoss have to play differently against it than they do bio. The units you use vs mech are not always the same as vs bio. Roach/hydra/viper is good vs mech, but not so much vs bio/mine. Swarmhosts are amazing vs mech, not so much vs bio.
Same for Protoss. Immortals are probably too good vs mech right now, and air transitions are really good against mech. So is mass chargelot archon, and adding in a lot of warp prisms for harrass or dropping on top of the army (no one does mass prism vs mech yet because it's not discovered because mech is not as viable yet as bio).
Mech being viable opens up a lot more strategies for all 3 races.
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EPT
