EPTTerran has a lot of units that counter the Immortal.
Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff - Page 17
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
Terran has a lot of units that counter the Immortal. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On December 04 2013 15:55 avilo wrote: I don't buy that Terran mech is like brood+infestor because it's 10x easier to take advantage of tanks/mech in SC2. Tanks can't shoot up, and vikings are always a liability because of how anti-air/anti-ground counters work in SC2. The difference is brood/infestor with OP fungal in Wings you could not micro against at all. There was zero room once fungalled, and the composition consisted of all air units. With Terran mech, you can micro vs tanks if you split up your units, flank, or make concaves. You can micro vs seeker missile, and you can also micro vs vikings. Mech is very susceptible to air, whereas brood/infestor was not so much because of that insta-fungal on anti-air units like blink stalker or vikings. Mech also has infinitely more counters than brood/infestor which had no counter. Blinding cloud, tempest, carriers, broodlords, swarmhosts, and the currently over-efficient-vs-tanks-immortal. The only thing that countered Wings brood/infestor was mass vikings + good seeker hits from Terran, or vortex from the mothership from Protoss. That was basically it. The interesting thing about Terran mech being viable is Zerg and Protoss have to play differently against it than they do bio. The units you use vs mech are not always the same as vs bio. Roach/hydra/viper is good vs mech, but not so much vs bio/mine. Swarmhosts are amazing vs mech, not so much vs bio. Same for Protoss. Immortals are probably too good vs mech right now, and air transitions are really good against mech. So is mass chargelot archon, and adding in a lot of warp prisms for harrass or dropping on top of the army (no one does mass prism vs mech yet because it's not discovered because mech is not as viable yet as bio). Mech being viable opens up a lot more strategies for all 3 races. Indeed, mech viability rewards more diversification, and personally I also wanna see mech buffed in an intelligent way, however, I think with the current setup, mech can never really be entertaining. Your kinda talking about something that's balanced-related, but that's not really the point here. Instead, I believe Lalush argues the mech player is always incentivized to turtle. By playing a defensive static defense heavy style (mass OC/planetaries/turrets) you maximize your probability of winning. While you may enjoy that - most people don't, and it will create a very poor spectator experience. Lalush's logic is that the economy in Sc2 makes it possible for the immobile army to obtain an almost similar economy as the mobile race. So even if we somehow buffed mech to make it strong in the midgame (so you could do timing attacks), you would almost always be better off just taking an extra base and turtle instead. This is ofc assuming doing both similoutaneously isn't doable (as you can't secure an extra base while moving out). Now, I also believe there are other problems. For instance, the risk of counterattack is IMO too high due to the efficiency of army movement + the lack of spider mines. This once again incentivez the mech player for turtling. Further, terrans harass options are way too easily counterable by cannons + warp-ins --> hellions reduced to a gimmick. Vultures on the other hand were almost better in every single way in BW (esp since protoss also had no warp tech to easily defend drops). This created the opportunity for much more actionpacked games Further, if we look at the Siege Tank, I believe Blizzard increased its supply from 2 to 3 due to the the introduction of the mule which allows terran to get a bigger army size while maintaining a similar economy. However, the mule also implies that if mech gets "balanced", then it needs to take advantage of the Mule. The best way to do that is simple to avoid army-trading, while playing a defensive mass OC style --> super boring for spectators. Hellions and Hellbats aren't good enough? No they aren't. Watch TvP in BW, and notice how many Vultures terran pro's actually get in TvP. A typical composition is actual more Vulture-heavy than Tank-heavy. In Sc2 - whenever you wanna try mech, you really don't want to many Hellions/hellbats as they simple are cost-inefficient vs anything that isn't light. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:20 Littlesheep wrote: I don't understand whats wrong with Tanks being bad against their hard counter. Terran has a lot of units that counter the Immortal. Because this isn't a game of rock/paper/scissors where we only look at which unit hard counters what. When a general playstyle like mech isn't viable you can make it viable by adjusting it against the units that gives it the most trouble. Immortals can and will still be a viable counter to tanks even if they were a softer counter than they currently are. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:18 lost_artz wrote: Hellions and Hellbats aren't good enough? No the are by far not as good as an oracle or mutas, but they don´t need gas. And they are not fun to watch. It has been a while since I saw some hellions do some real harassment in a pro game... | ||
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SpaceChick
173 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Let's consider Mech gets balanced to the following scenarios: 1- Mech beats Antibio 2- Bio beats Antimech 3- Mech and Antimech are equal 4- Bio and Antibio are equal This is of course a problem, since the 50:50 winrates of "proper" Protoss play gets skewed by the other Terran favored winrates. But there is various ways to solve this: - Allins (the one you talk about): I'm with you on what you say about Allins, but I think it is not the only possibility. - Scouting/Reacotionary tools: Something that is especially prominent in the ZvT when Zerg should fight Mech or Bio (in Broodwar, or in WoL, or in HotS). Basically, for as long as you can react properly, the Mech vs Antibio and Bio vs Antimech scenarios become unlikely to begin with. - Converging Compositions: Basically that though there may be imbalances at some point when playing in scenario 1 and 2, those imbalances get overthrown by having both playstyles come down to the same lateron. E.g. in WoL, Zerg opening with Muta/ling/bling against Mech was quite bad for Zerg, compared to a roachbased opening. What made it OK was that in both cases you could later on transition to Infestorbased armies. Similar things could happen for Protoss. Antibio-Opening with Colossus can quite easily transition into Immortalbased play, opening with Templars in Archon/Immortal based one. - Unit Balance: Making Mech viable on its own may be problematic because of 1 and 2. Yet, there can be certain balance tweaks done to easy the situation. E.g. if the Immortal is tweaked to be reasonable against both bio and Mech, or Skytoss compositions get tools to deal with bio as well. I guess the big uncertainty in all of this is simply Blizzard... we don't know how far they are willing to go down that road, or whether they will simply stop at a certain point, instead of trying another tweak. @Maps: I think you exaggerate the problem a little. If on some maps Mech (or bio) is too good for Protoss to handle, than the map is simply imbalanced for TvP. Just like how you don't take mutaliskplay out of the equation when considering ZvP mapbalance. If the map is just better for Mech than for Bio, but not imbalanced, it simply means that a Terran shoule be more likely (for his own good) to choose Mech there. But that's just a strategical choice of his, just like you choose strategies on any other map. (Something that I think currently is the case in TvT, where no matter how much you buff Mech, it won't be superior to Bio on Whirlwind. While I think Yeonsu is better for Mech than for Bio) | ||
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OSM.OneManArmy
United States509 Posts
hehehe | ||
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:38 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: we should let a marine go into a tank like a bunker :3 hehehe This would be the coolest thing ever :3 | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
I think the first and easiest buff (that follows Blizzards upgrade theme) would be some sort of speed buff (or speed ability). HOWEVER... I really like the micro potential for thor+medivac/boost micro. I've seen it used in a few games and it's a really good way to let players show off some skill. With that in mind, what I'd REALLY like is a change to the way the thor does damage (just like goody's suggestion about increasing tank shots). Change the THOR ground attack from 30 (+3) x 2 to 15 (+2) x 4 (The attack would take twice as long so the cooldown from first shot to first shot would be a little longer and DPS should stay relatively similar even with the slight attack upgrade increase). | ||
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ottosec
505 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On December 04 2013 14:43 LaLuSh wrote: We have one example in the history of SC2 where this was true for a composition: Broodlord/Infestor in 2011-2012. It kind of upsets me how almost everyone loses track of time less then a year after. On topic, I'd really really love to see mech become viable, but I'd also love to see protoss get stronger gateway units, a less boring collosus, less stuff like blink, and the msc changed somehow. Could really make the game a lot more interesting. | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:40 DusTerr wrote: I still think the THOR needs some love. (I'd also lobby for the BC and Carrier to get buffed, but that's for another time.) I think the first and easiest buff (that follows Blizzards upgrade theme) would be some sort of speed buff (or speed ability). HOWEVER... I really like the micro potential for thor+medivac/boost micro. I've seen it used in a few games and it's a really good way to let players show off some skill. With that in mind, what I'd REALLY like is a change to the way the thor does damage (just like goody's suggestion about increasing tank shots). Change the THOR ground attack from 30 (+3) x 2 to 15 (+2) x 4 (The attack would take twice as long so the cooldown from first shot to first shot would be a little longer and DPS should stay relatively similar even with the slight attack upgrade increase). They could have easily scrapped the Thor for the Warhound had they actually made it anti-MECH, and not anti-ARMORED. I know it's off topic - but the reason Warhounds were so OP when they got removed is because their attack which was meant to be anti-mechanical was actually X+X vs Armored rather than X+X vs Mechanical. This simple change would have completely changed how they were used. /mini-rant | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:52 bo1b wrote: It kind of upsets me how almost everyone loses track of time less then a year after. On topic, I'd really really love to see mech become viable, but I'd also love to see protoss get stronger gateway units, a less boring collosus, less stuff like blink, and the msc changed somehow. Could really make the game a lot more interesting. Blink is the only micro-intensive ability the Protoss have apart from Feedback, Storms, and clutch FFs, and the only one on par with what T and Z have to do in TvZ every single game, and you want to take it out? On December 04 2013 18:53 lost_artz wrote: They could have easily scrapped the Thor for the Warhound had they actually made it anti-MECH, and not anti-ARMORED. I know it's off topic - but the reason Warhounds were so OP when they got removed is because their attack which was meant to be anti-mechanical was actually X+X vs Armored rather than X+X vs Mechanical. This simple change would have completely changed how they were used. /mini-rant Warhounds weren't removed because they were OP, they were removed because they're the worst designed unit to come to SC2 so far, and that's saying a lot. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
On December 03 2013 21:21 GoOdy wrote: right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless. Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal? I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:00 paddyz wrote: Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless. Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal? I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them. Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio. Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:00 paddyz wrote: Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless. Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal? I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them. The amount of "you pro-gamers need to l2p"-posts is a bit disheartening. I expect this kind of crap on bnet forums, not here. When mech is universally branded not viable against protoss, no amount of protoss icons telling terran progamers to "learn to build ghost" will fix that. The issue is a little more complex than that. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:50 ottosec wrote: If only Terran would have a unit that could remove all shields on the Immortal in one shot... Hmmmm... I really love comments like these cause if it were that easy then why arent pros doing it or why wouldnt goody try it out...... cause its not that easy one unit doesnt change everything. and also if you think its that simple by just adding ghost plz try and do it your self. go mech in tvp while trying to get an expo get upgrades get a mech army and ghost all at the same time plz do and tell me how easy it is. and to the OP i like the idea but doubt it will happen but nice post | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:00 paddyz wrote: Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless. Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal? I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them. Those silly Koreans, spending all that time practicing in team houses, and never realizing that they just needed to throw some Ghosts into their MechVP. Someone tell Inno and MMA to stop going bio vs Protoss and losing, they've been doing it wrong. edit: ninja'd x2 | ||
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TricksAre4Figs
United States125 Posts
*** IMMORTALS ARE NOT THE SOLE REASON MECH IS NOT VIABLE AGAINST PROTOSS *** You can take this Protoss nerf/Terran buff, whatever you want to call it, and it will not change the fact that Bio is the strongest form of TvP. The REASON for Bio being superior is because of HIGH MOBILITY, drop harasses and forcing skirmishes where the Terran Bio army is favored. These factors force Protoss to play very defensive. NOW VS MECH,, TOSS DO WHATEVER HE WANTS AND TAKE 3 OR 4 BASE WITHOUT MUCH WORRY,,,, AND YOU WILL LOSE TO HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T IMPEDE HIS TECH ETC,,AND IMMORTAL WILL STILL 3 SHOT YOUR TANKS This KIND of posting from goOby is the reason why foreign scene is pathetic and failing to catch up to our Korean friends. | ||
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finkelboy
Italy372 Posts
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