right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
On December 04 2013 19:14 TricksAre4Figs wrote: The fact of the matter is that you CAN beat Immortals as Terran. It just requires using Ghosts well and fodder units. This suggestion is nothing more than asking for a buff to Terran where it caters to a specific style of play, namely turtle Mech Terran. Furthermore, this change would only serve to dumb the game down by making the tank impossible to deal with on the ground. Toss players will just go straight to air and then we'll have a new thread suggesting how to change the Carrier or the Voidray because mech isn't viable against these units.
*** IMMORTALS ARE NOT THE SOLE REASON MECH IS NOT VIABLE AGAINST PROTOSS ***
You can take this Protoss nerf/Terran buff, whatever you want to call it, and it will not change the fact that Bio is the strongest form of TvP. The REASON for Bio being superior is because of HIGH MOBILITY, drop harasses and forcing skirmishes where the Terran Bio army is favored. These factors force Protoss to play very defensive. NOW VS MECH,, TOSS DO WHATEVER HE WANTS AND TAKE 3 OR 4 BASE WITHOUT MUCH WORRY,,,, AND YOU WILL LOSE TO HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T IMPEDE HIS TECH ETC,,AND IMMORTAL WILL STILL 3 SHOT YOUR TANKS
This KIND of posting from goOby is the reason why foreign scene is pathetic and failing to catch up to our Korean friends.
If you want mech to be played aggressively (such as in BW) you can't make ghosts a requirement. Instead, ghosts just further rewards the whole turtle-passive deathball "mech".
In BW Tanks were cost-effective (even in small numbers) vs Dragoons. Now ofc SC2 works a bit differnetly as a normal protoss composition will consist of Stalkers + Immortals vs tanks. To make up for Stalkers being a bit weak, Immortals should indeed be more cost-effective than Dragoons, however the current strenght of the Immortals in small isolated numbers vs Tanks is absolutely laughable and it will always force úber turtling untill that gets fixed.
IMO hardened shield just needs to get removed in the next expansion and then the Immortal should be more microable (the whole turn around, move back thing takes way too long) and should receive sligthly better stats as a compensation. This makes it less of a hard-counter and more of a strong battle-oriented unit.
On December 04 2013 19:14 TricksAre4Figs wrote: The fact of the matter is that you CAN beat Immortals as Terran. It just requires using Ghosts well and fodder units. This suggestion is nothing more than asking for a buff to Terran where it caters to a specific style of play, namely turtle Mech Terran. Furthermore, this change would only serve to dumb the game down by making the tank impossible to deal with on the ground. Toss players will just go straight to air and then we'll have a new thread suggesting how to change the Carrier or the Voidray because mech isn't viable against these units.
*** IMMORTALS ARE NOT THE SOLE REASON MECH IS NOT VIABLE AGAINST PROTOSS ***
You can take this Protoss nerf/Terran buff, whatever you want to call it, and it will not change the fact that Bio is the strongest form of TvP. The REASON for Bio being superior is because of HIGH MOBILITY, drop harasses and forcing skirmishes where the Terran Bio army is favored. These factors force Protoss to play very defensive. NOW VS MECH,, TOSS DO WHATEVER HE WANTS AND TAKE 3 OR 4 BASE WITHOUT MUCH WORRY,,,, AND YOU WILL LOSE TO HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T IMPEDE HIS TECH ETC,,AND IMMORTAL WILL STILL 3 SHOT YOUR TANKS
This KIND of posting from goOby is the reason why foreign scene is pathetic and failing to catch up to our Korean friends.
If you want mech to be played aggressively (such as in BW) you can't make ghosts a requirement. Instead, ghosts just further rewards the whole turtle-passive deathball "mech".
In BW Tanks were cost-effective (even in small numbers) vs Dragoons. Now ofc SC2 works a bit differnetly as a normal protoss composition will consist of Stalkers + Immortals vs tanks. To make up for Stalkers being a bit weak, Immortals should indeed be more cost-effective than Dragoons, however the current strenght of the Immortals in small isolated numbers vs Tanks is absolutely laughable and it will always force úber turtling untill that gets fixed.
IMO hardened shield just needs to get removed in the next expansion and then the Immortal should be more microable (the whole turn around, move back thing takes way too long) and should receive sligthly better stats as a compensation. This makes it less of a hard-counter and more of a strong battle-oriented unit.
If you're going to rework the Immortal then the Thor must be reworked.
Also, yes, that is my point, Mech can't be played aggressively. This is the main factor in Terran Bio always being the stronger style.
I would also suggest to Mech players that 2 Base Timing attacks with factory units is incredibly strong and IMO completely viable as a 2 Base All-in. Going past 2 Base with Mech Terran will always be inferior to Bio Terran in SC2.
right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
Mines, Missile Turrets and PFs? We're all aware Mechs slow to rebuild however if you roll your opponent the same thing is true for Toss. Sure they may have 10-15 gates + maybe 2 robos but it still takes time to rebuild their army too.
On December 04 2013 19:14 TricksAre4Figs wrote: The fact of the matter is that you CAN beat Immortals as Terran. It just requires using Ghosts well and fodder units. This suggestion is nothing more than asking for a buff to Terran where it caters to a specific style of play, namely turtle Mech Terran. Furthermore, this change would only serve to dumb the game down by making the tank impossible to deal with on the ground. Toss players will just go straight to air and then we'll have a new thread suggesting how to change the Carrier or the Voidray because mech isn't viable against these units.
*** IMMORTALS ARE NOT THE SOLE REASON MECH IS NOT VIABLE AGAINST PROTOSS ***
You can take this Protoss nerf/Terran buff, whatever you want to call it, and it will not change the fact that Bio is the strongest form of TvP. The REASON for Bio being superior is because of HIGH MOBILITY, drop harasses and forcing skirmishes where the Terran Bio army is favored. These factors force Protoss to play very defensive. NOW VS MECH,, TOSS DO WHATEVER HE WANTS AND TAKE 3 OR 4 BASE WITHOUT MUCH WORRY,,,, AND YOU WILL LOSE TO HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T IMPEDE HIS TECH ETC,,AND IMMORTAL WILL STILL 3 SHOT YOUR TANKS
This KIND of posting from goOby is the reason why foreign scene is pathetic and failing to catch up to our Korean friends.
If you want mech to be played aggressively (such as in BW) you can't make ghosts a requirement. Instead, ghosts just further rewards the whole turtle-passive deathball "mech".
In BW Tanks were cost-effective (even in small numbers) vs Dragoons. Now ofc SC2 works a bit differnetly as a normal protoss composition will consist of Stalkers + Immortals vs tanks. To make up for Stalkers being a bit weak, Immortals should indeed be more cost-effective than Dragoons, however the current strenght of the Immortals in small isolated numbers vs Tanks is absolutely laughable and it will always force úber turtling untill that gets fixed.
IMO hardened shield just needs to get removed in the next expansion and then the Immortal should be more microable (the whole turn around, move back thing takes way too long) and should receive sligthly better stats as a compensation. This makes it less of a hard-counter and more of a strong battle-oriented unit.
Removed the shields would create more issue than it would fix. TvP isn't the only matchup to consider here.
On December 04 2013 19:14 TricksAre4Figs wrote: The fact of the matter is that you CAN beat Immortals as Terran. It just requires using Ghosts well and fodder units. This suggestion is nothing more than asking for a buff to Terran where it caters to a specific style of play, namely turtle Mech Terran. Furthermore, this change would only serve to dumb the game down by making the tank impossible to deal with on the ground. Toss players will just go straight to air and then we'll have a new thread suggesting how to change the Carrier or the Voidray because mech isn't viable against these units.
*** IMMORTALS ARE NOT THE SOLE REASON MECH IS NOT VIABLE AGAINST PROTOSS ***
You can take this Protoss nerf/Terran buff, whatever you want to call it, and it will not change the fact that Bio is the strongest form of TvP. The REASON for Bio being superior is because of HIGH MOBILITY, drop harasses and forcing skirmishes where the Terran Bio army is favored. These factors force Protoss to play very defensive. NOW VS MECH,, TOSS DO WHATEVER HE WANTS AND TAKE 3 OR 4 BASE WITHOUT MUCH WORRY,,,, AND YOU WILL LOSE TO HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T IMPEDE HIS TECH ETC,,AND IMMORTAL WILL STILL 3 SHOT YOUR TANKS
This KIND of posting from goOby is the reason why foreign scene is pathetic and failing to catch up to our Korean friends.
If you want mech to be played aggressively (such as in BW) you can't make ghosts a requirement. Instead, ghosts just further rewards the whole turtle-passive deathball "mech".
In BW Tanks were cost-effective (even in small numbers) vs Dragoons. Now ofc SC2 works a bit differnetly as a normal protoss composition will consist of Stalkers + Immortals vs tanks. To make up for Stalkers being a bit weak, Immortals should indeed be more cost-effective than Dragoons, however the current strenght of the Immortals in small isolated numbers vs Tanks is absolutely laughable and it will always force úber turtling untill that gets fixed.
IMO hardened shield just needs to get removed in the next expansion and then the Immortal should be more microable (the whole turn around, move back thing takes way too long) and should receive sligthly better stats as a compensation. This makes it less of a hard-counter and more of a strong battle-oriented unit.
Removed the shields would create more issue than it would fix. TvP isn't the only matchup to consider here.
as far as i can remember hardened shields doesnt work against mass roach/hydra. so i dont think its an issue in zvp. So what would be the problem that will rise up ?
It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
wow. such macro. very gas
Yes, 100 gas for every ghost, and don't forget Moebius Reactor = 100gas and you probably want to protect your valuable ghost, so you'll want cloak, which is another 150. Maybe want to grab and +1 or +2 armor upgrade also.. hell probably even medivacs to heal them back up. Get it in your head, its a different tech route and has no synergies with mech whatsoever
right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
Go to a unit tester and try it... Ghost and Tank cost both nearly as much as an Immortal. for 10tanks and 5ghost (2500/1750) you get like 13immortals.
And if Immortals with 200HP "die so fast", guess what Tanks do with 160HP.
Ghostmech gets costefficient against Immortals when the armies get huge. Before that immortals completely shut you down on their own, even if you counter them as hard as you can.
How do I shut down harass? Hellions, Vikings, Turrets. It's actually not that hard if you have a little bit of experience with TvT Mech vs Bio play, Mech vs harassbased Protoss is a cakewalk.
Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins if you get into a 200 vs 200 deathball fight with only 30scvs left and the Protoss has been reluctant to switch into VR/Carrier/Tempest of 5 bases when he maxed at 15mins and instead kept on throwing away ground units for 10mins while the Terran did this passive turtle off 3-4bases.
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
wow. such macro. very gas
Yes, 100 gas for every ghost, and don't forget Moebius Reactor = 100gas and you probably want to protect your valuable ghost, so you'll want cloak, which is another 150. Maybe want to grab and +1 or +2 armor upgrade also.. hell probably even medivacs to heal them back up. Get it in your head, its a different tech route and has no synergies with mech whatsoever
So tell me this how exactly does Toss deal with Tanks post change then? Immortals would suck now. Keep in mind 5 less attacks would actually be 2.5 attack cycles (if we are to assume 2 shots are fired @ the same time). Essentially shields drop twice as fast. Colossi are already at a 2 range disadvantage vs Tanks.
That leaves Blink, Charge or Tempests. Hellbats were specifically added to counter charge-lots, Blinks meh-ish at best if there's any mines, and Tempest are utter crap since they don't have any sort of overkill prevention (10 will attack a single tank all the the same time unless mirco'd).
If Tanks were to be Buffed this way I think toss would in some way or another need a Buff too as Immortals were specifically designed by Blizzard to break up heavily fortified areas. Seeing as how Carriers are never used perhaps they could be given extra damage vs Mechanical units making them slightly more viable too.
On December 04 2013 12:47 lost_artz wrote: I still find it hilarious Mech players refuse to build ghosts for EMP.
The second you see High Temps terran players go for Ghosts, but somehow that's impossible for Mech players to do vs Immortals. It's not exactly as if you're not floating a lot of resources playing mech either. The most you would need is 2 Barracks producing Ghosts to counter-act any Immortals or High Temps. They can also EMP any other Toss units. In addition to this a single Ghost is capable of 2 EMPs at the same time (with enough energy) which in essence can remove up to 200 health from a group of units almost instantly. Yes, it regens but not if you engage directly afterwards. Yet you'd rather complain about how Immortals are OP still.
You guys already have a solution to the issue, just being so damn stuck in your ways and use it. If nothing else you can HSM the damn things, spell damage doesn't get reduced on Immortals.
When pro players "refuse" to use a certain unit that may feel like an obvious solution, theres usually plenty of reasons why they choose not to. You obviously have no idea what they are but they are there, trust me.
In cases like this its better not to act like a smartass unless you yourself can prove everyone wrong and make it work in actual games against top protosses. Can you?
It doesn't matter if I can, nor do I play Terran. I suppose we should all just go back to the days of thinking Marines can't be split vs. Banelings too. All it takes is for someone to actually TRY rather than complain about how X needs to be changed because of Y. As I've already said you have the solution try actually using it and see how that works out for you. Until then there's no need to change the game.
And what makes you think people haven't tried?
In fairness back in 2011 people were telling Terrans for ages that Ghosts were good and getting every excuse under the sun to not use them back in return. They're expensive, they're useless, do little damage, snipe is bad, EMP is bad, need too many upgrades etc etc; as well as the "its been TRIED" thing that you're doing here. Then Terrans did actually try them, in numbers more than just "token unit". And they were found to be so strong they rapidly had an EMP radius nerf dropped on them. Shortly followed by a snipe nerf when it was realised mass snipe would rip apart Broodlords.
There IS some precedent for Ghosts just not being tried properly, so I can kinda see why some people are jumping on that train
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
wow. such macro. very gas
Yes, 100 gas for every ghost, and don't forget Moebius Reactor = 100gas and you probably want to protect your valuable ghost, so you'll want cloak, which is another 150. Maybe want to grab and +1 or +2 armor upgrade also.. hell probably even medivacs to heal them back up. Get it in your head, its a different tech route and has no synergies with mech whatsoever
So tell me this how exactly does Toss deal with Tanks post change then? Immortals would suck now. Keep in mind 5 less attacks would actually be 2.5 attack cycles (if we are to assume 2 shots are fired @ the same time). Essentially shields drop twice as fast. Colossi are already at a 2 range disadvantage vs Tanks.
That leaves Blink, Charge or Tempests. Hellbats were specifically added to counter charge-lots, Blinks meh-ish at best if there's any mines, and Tempest are utter crap since they don't have any sort of overkill prevention (10 will attack a single tank all the the same time unless mirco'd).
If Tanks were to be Buffed this way I think toss would in some way or another need a Buff too as Immortals were specifically designed by Blizzard to break up heavily fortified areas. Seeing as how Carriers are never used perhaps they could be given extra damage vs Mechanical units making them slightly more viable too.
You understood me wrong, good sir. I was not actually promoting the buff from the op, i was just saying that ghosts are not the solution to make mech viable in TvP. During the HotS Development Blizz has been on the right track with the initial idea of the Warhound, making him very Goliath-like. I think a Goliath-like Unit would be perfect. Too bad they screwed up hardcore and made the Warhound an OP-as-fuck-joke-Unit in the open beta and had to remove it from the game since it was broken beyond the point of fixability.
right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
Go to a unit tester and try it... Ghost and Tank cost both nearly as much as an Immortal. for 10tanks and 5ghost (2500/1750) you get like 13immortals.
And if Immortals with 200HP "die so fast", guess what Tanks do with 160HP.
Ghostmech gets costefficient against Immortals when the armies get huge. Before that immortals completely shut you down on their own, even if you counter them as hard as you can.
How do I shut down harass? Hellions, Vikings, Turrets. It's actually not that hard if you have a little bit of experience with TvT Mech vs Bio play, Mech vs harassbased Protoss is a cakewalk.
Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins if you get into a 200 vs 200 deathball fight with only 30scvs left and the Protoss has been reluctant to switch into VR/Carrier/Tempest of 5 bases when he maxed at 15mins and instead kept on throwing away ground units for 10mins while the Terran did this passive turtle off 3-4bases.
Since when tempest has been counter to mech? Thor>voidray
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
wow. such macro. very gas
Yes, 100 gas for every ghost, and don't forget Moebius Reactor = 100gas and you probably want to protect your valuable ghost, so you'll want cloak, which is another 150. Maybe want to grab and +1 or +2 armor upgrade also.. hell probably even medivacs to heal them back up. Get it in your head, its a different tech route and has no synergies with mech whatsoever
So tell me this how exactly does Toss deal with Tanks post change then? Immortals would suck now. Keep in mind 5 less attacks would actually be 2.5 attack cycles (if we are to assume 2 shots are fired @ the same time). Essentially shields drop twice as fast. Colossi are already at a 2 range disadvantage vs Tanks.
That leaves Blink, Charge or Tempests. Hellbats were specifically added to counter charge-lots, Blinks meh-ish at best if there's any mines, and Tempest are utter crap since they don't have any sort of overkill prevention (10 will attack a single tank all the the same time unless mirco'd).
If Tanks were to be Buffed this way I think toss would in some way or another need a Buff too as Immortals were specifically designed by Blizzard to break up heavily fortified areas. Seeing as how Carriers are never used perhaps they could be given extra damage vs Mechanical units making them slightly more viable too.
Immortals were designed with 70 dmg tanks, steps of war and 5 range. The situation is totally different now. Blizzard is already moving towards usable mech, but with small steps. In their mind hellbats and combined mechanical upgrades could just have been enough. It does not seem to be enough. Goody now just made an proposal for the next step. It is possible that at some point in the future one of this small steps is a bit too big. Blizzard will realize that and move back a bit. But we are not at this point yet. IMHO it would not be too bad if we had overpowered Turtle mech for two months and another balanced playstyle afterwards. Thats how gamebalancing works. It will always be try and error.
right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
Go to a unit tester and try it... Ghost and Tank cost both nearly as much as an Immortal. for 10tanks and 5ghost (2500/1750) you get like 13immortals.
And if Immortals with 200HP "die so fast", guess what Tanks do with 160HP.
Ghostmech gets costefficient against Immortals when the armies get huge. Before that immortals completely shut you down on their own, even if you counter them as hard as you can.
How do I shut down harass? Hellions, Vikings, Turrets. It's actually not that hard if you have a little bit of experience with TvT Mech vs Bio play, Mech vs harassbased Protoss is a cakewalk.
Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins if you get into a 200 vs 200 deathball fight with only 30scvs left and the Protoss has been reluctant to switch into VR/Carrier/Tempest of 5 bases when he maxed at 15mins and instead kept on throwing away ground units for 10mins while the Terran did this passive turtle off 3-4bases.
Since when tempest has been counter to mech? Thor>voidray
Since when did I write this? I wrote "If a Terran can stay alive for 25mins to get an army that can fight Archons and Immortals, and you didn't get the tip that hardly anything of that composition can fight a reasonable airarmy which you can easily get off, since you are so far ahead economically and so safe because your stuff is so costefficient against his Mech, then yes, said army actually stands a chance against Archon/Immortal. Which does not make Mech viable against a thinking opponent."
On December 04 2013 20:54 reapsen wrote: It blows my mind how the title of this thread says "Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff" and almost 50% of the posts suggest the usage of ghosts.
It should be pretty obvious that just for making a single ghost, you have to invest so much gas in buildings, upgrades and the unit itself that it totally defeats the purpose of going mech in the first place.
The way hardened shields work, u need a unit with relative low base dmg and very high firerate to be cost effective against it. Such a unit is not avaible from a factory right now. Therefore i think the best way to deal with immortals as a meching player would be to churn out unupgraded marines from some reactor barracks and throw those at the immortals. At least you don't need extra tech or gas to build those, so you can bolster up your mech army.
150/50 for Academy - builds in 40sec Ghosts are 200/100 - builds in 40sec Tech Lab on a Barracks 50/50 - switch out Barracks or build a new one
wow. such macro. very gas
Yes, 100 gas for every ghost, and don't forget Moebius Reactor = 100gas and you probably want to protect your valuable ghost, so you'll want cloak, which is another 150. Maybe want to grab and +1 or +2 armor upgrade also.. hell probably even medivacs to heal them back up. Get it in your head, its a different tech route and has no synergies with mech whatsoever
So tell me this how exactly does Toss deal with Tanks post change then?
Hell, everything is AMAZING vs tanks right now. With the immortal change, tanks might not get wrecked in 1 second by x amount of chargelots/immortals. Tanks are insta-shredded vs zealots/blink stalkers/archons/immortals/air with a single wrong move in any direction. On the other hand, immortals, zealots, and archons can walk INTO tank fire for a second or two and then walk away without any damage being done.
The real problem with Tanks (in both TvP and TvZ) is that they are actually terrible at defending multiple locations WITH SMALL NUMBERS. They get wrecked against equal supplies of lings/roaches/hydras/zealots/stalkers/immortals until 50/60+ supply. If they did MORE damage with a single shot AND had a slower rate of fire two things would happen. 1. Better at defending in small numbers. 2. Not as good in huge fights due to slower rate of fire and severe overkill.
So the final proposal is:
1. Double tank damage, decrease rate of fire by 1/2 2. Decrease Immortal hardened shield effect from 10 flat damage taken to something like 50% damage taken
That way TvP could consist of tank based T compositions, while P doesn't WRECK T's army instantly. Right now every P composition destroys tank based T compositions.
To follow up on what TimENT said, there's literally only one ground-based composition that P has which is universally bad against tanks (whether there are many or few), and that's non-blink stalkers. Everything else does at least ok against tanks.
right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints
Or you could just EMP the immortals to remove the shields on the immortals, or any other protoss unit for that matter. EMP also has the added bonus of being able to make sentries, HT, DTs and archons useless.
Toss players get immortals to counter your tanks, rather then ask for a patch to fix your problem, why don't you get something that counters the immortal?
I feel people need to play differently to do better rather then everyone asking for different changes to suit them.
Terrans build their counters to immortals. Its called playing bio.
Even with ghosts, Mech does not get costefficient against immortals.
It does get. The problem is not mech units itself. Withouts shields, immortals are almost useless, they die so fast.
The problem is harrash. As mech player how do you stop protoss from harrashing your base? Ye its quite hard. Another thing is that mech is slow to rebuild. Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins protoss army when sieged. But its slow to rebuild and very bad at defending several places at the same time.
Go to a unit tester and try it... Ghost and Tank cost both nearly as much as an Immortal. for 10tanks and 5ghost (2500/1750) you get like 13immortals.
And if Immortals with 200HP "die so fast", guess what Tanks do with 160HP.
Ghostmech gets costefficient against Immortals when the armies get huge. Before that immortals completely shut you down on their own, even if you counter them as hard as you can.
How do I shut down harass? Hellions, Vikings, Turrets. It's actually not that hard if you have a little bit of experience with TvT Mech vs Bio play, Mech vs harassbased Protoss is a cakewalk.
Hellbat, siegetank,ghost,raven, (thor) wins if you get into a 200 vs 200 deathball fight with only 30scvs left and the Protoss has been reluctant to switch into VR/Carrier/Tempest of 5 bases when he maxed at 15mins and instead kept on throwing away ground units for 10mins while the Terran did this passive turtle off 3-4bases.
Since when tempest has been counter to mech? Thor>voidray
Tempests are really really good against Mech in the late game actually, similarly to how they would be used in PvZ by just adding 3-5 of them to the otherwise very specialized ground army (could be lots of immortals, archons, chargelots, mass blink stalker+colossus, whatever fits best against what the terran is doing) and restrict every movement the terran could make by being able to outrange and outmaneuver him. Also having a couple of Stargates and potentially being able to techswitch into a number of Void Rays is always neat against Mech. I think once a Protoss is in such a good economic position it gets naturally very difficult for a meching terran because a smart Protoss will always be able to find holes and good engagements in the late game and the tech switches Protoss can do as well as the warp in mechanic are pretty nasty to deal with in the lategame.
I think to make mech "viable" it should be dangerous and scary to face in the midgame, not in the lategame. Tempests being a great unit in the lategame is how they are meant to be played, it's not necessary to change that. The problem is that Mech overall is just not that great in the midgame. I don't think it's possible to narrow it down to Immortals, although they definitely play a role. Even more important in my opinion however is how differently SC2 works as a game. In SC:BW it's very hard to crack a base or attack up to high ground, so it's actually possible to defend whole bases with just a small number of tanks and clever building placements and maybe some scvs helping. In SC2 the defender's advantage is just really bad comparatively, Protoss has tons of units specialized to circumvent even the little advantage that you have in the first place (Blink Stalkers, Colossus, Immortals) and also Supply Counts work differently in SC2, in general the transition from mid to lategame is very abrupt and players just suddenly have 200/200 with almost half of the supply being workers. It almost seems like battles are designed around being fair when fought at equal supply counts, but I personally don't think that's a clever way to design an RTS. The incentive behind that might be to make the game easier to watch for new viewers and to make it "esports compatible" and easy to compare supply counts. I personally don't think it contributes to the goal of what makes the "SC:BW-style" RTS genre (I'm just saying that's a thing) so much fun to play and strategic in the first place, because to contribute to that specific goal you need diversity and less "shallowness" (for lack of a better word) in your opportunities, and the counters and interactions between units and even whole races in SC2 are pretty one-dimensional and straight-forward more often than not. (I'm exaggerating a little bit of course, but my point that depth of BW > SC2 stands)
Not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing, because it opens up a lot of opportunities for the players to get really good at showing incredibly strong army movement and map awareness skills, also a strong sense of choosing the right army engagements. These kinds of opportunities weren't always there in SC:BW because there was so much other stuff to do, also these skills are relatively easy to observe for a viewer, which creates a good opportunity for using the game as an esport and makes the viewing experience less about obscure knowledge and easier to comprehend for a new viewer.
From a game design perspective though it's always more rewarding (but also more risky) to go for maximum opportunities and interactions that you don't necessarily completely understand yourself (so you trade diversity for balance and understanding of your own game), while at the same time cutting out redundencies (for example 2 different unit types that function similarly are unnecessary) to make the game easier to understand for new players. Balance is then achieved later by a whole lot of work and just testing "what works".
I think Blizzard generally approaches their game with this mindset, but they seemed very cautious and almost hesitant to go all out on diversity in SC2 in fear of making the game imbalanced and not viable for esports. Again, not saying that this makes the game bad, but it is very hard to create such a deep and in many ways groundbreaking game like SC:BW with a cautious mindset.
Here's a nice interview with Mike Morhaime where he talks about the original Starcraft and how they approached the game design for it, interestingly he says they got a lot of inspiration for how to design it from Magic: The Gathering, a game which itself has a very viable and alive competitive scene.
EPT
