EPTand i disagree with people saying that immortal should hardcounter tanks .. at least it would be a fine hardcounter but the tanks right now in small number wont have any effect in tvp which makes them obsolete
Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff - Page 14
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goody153
44236 Posts
and i disagree with people saying that immortal should hardcounter tanks .. at least it would be a fine hardcounter but the tanks right now in small number wont have any effect in tvp which makes them obsolete | ||
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
On December 04 2013 09:34 Whitewing wrote: How about for LOTV we just do a complete protoss overhaul to fix the TvP mech problem, rather than a band aid fix for mech right now? I'm pretty sure if you made warp gate way later, nerfed immortals a bit, put them down to 3 supply and put them back on the gateway where they were originally intended to be, made warp gates produce slower than gateways so it's a choice which one, and did a few other changes, mech wouldn't be as weak vs. toss. Because the problem here isn't the mech units really, it's that their counters are too strong. Vs. zerg swarm hosts and vipers are a problem, vs. protoss immortals are an issue. mech would still be lame thoough as it has no way realy way of putting pressure on opponent (can only turtle). The real thing mech needs (besides immortal nerf) is a buff to hellions. Vultures in espeically TvP were much much stronger than hellions. Imagine 75 mineral hellions that does like 20 damage to shield and 3 mines. This means they easily can kill archons, they can also take out statisc defense and they aren't particularly cost inefficeint against Stalkers. Then ofc you would nerf its damage vs light a bit so they don't rape light units too badly. But that would totally change the game. Now you would actually use your Hellions for other stuff than just mienral dumbing. You may actually have a compostiion that is like 70% hellions and 30% tanks - That really opens up for aggressive play rather than just "sit back and turtle" -forever. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden531 Posts
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
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henkel
Netherlands146 Posts
On December 04 2013 09:52 A.Alm wrote: We can save us the trouble and log in to iccup. or go here........ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254 | ||
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
LOCKDOWN- an offensive spell cast by the Terran Ghost which shorts out the target's circuitry, rendering it immobile for 60 seconds. During this time the unit can be attacked, repaired and destroyed, but it cannot return fire, move, or respond to any orders. Lockdown can only be cast on mechanical units This skill if added to the ghosts would allow Terran to lockdown every protoss unit besides templar, zealot, and archon and could be used in TvT for any unit from factory or starport. I realize that this would probably make bio a lot better to use over mech vs P, but I believe there would be ways around it... off the top of my head I would make sure that a full energy ghost cannot use 1 emp and 1 lockdown. There are many more small tweaks i'm sure a team who worked hard on it could solve in a jiffy. Though a bit off topic I figured I would speak of the effects that lockdown would have on TvT. With any unit from factory or starport being vulnerable to lockdown, breaking tank lines with bio becomes a bit easier, swinging a viking battle in your favor by locking down a viking or two or even the raven to stop the use of a PDD. Those are just a few uses in TvT that I thought of while typing. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On December 04 2013 08:05 Bagi wrote: One would think that changes like these is what the test maps were intended for. Meaningful changes, not just giving tanks 0.2 seconds faster attack. yes, thank you. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 04 2013 10:57 Ouija wrote: While I may not agree with the changes goody has proposed, I still feel that mech could use some slight help vs Protoss. After reading through much of the thread I think I have a possible solution which would help make TvP and TvT more interesting. LOCKDOWN- an offensive spell cast by the Terran Ghost which shorts out the target's circuitry, rendering it immobile for 60 seconds. During this time the unit can be attacked, repaired and destroyed, but it cannot return fire, move, or respond to any orders. Lockdown can only be cast on mechanical units This skill if added to the ghosts would allow Terran to lockdown every protoss unit besides templar, zealot, and archon and could be used in TvT for any unit from factory or starport. I realize that this would probably make bio a lot better to use over mech vs P, but I believe there would be ways around it... off the top of my head I would make sure that a full energy ghost cannot use 1 emp and 1 lockdown. There are many more small tweaks i'm sure a team who worked hard on it could solve in a jiffy. Though a bit off topic I figured I would speak of the effects that lockdown would have on TvT. With any unit from factory or starport being vulnerable to lockdown, breaking tank lines with bio becomes a bit easier, swinging a viking battle in your favor by locking down a viking or two or even the raven to stop the use of a PDD. Those are just a few uses in TvT that I thought of while typing. As a Terran myself, this version of lockdown would be way too strong vs Colossi, you won't even need Vikings which means mass ghosts counters the dual AoE of Protoss. | ||
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
On December 04 2013 11:01 vthree wrote: As a Terran myself, this version of lockdown would be way too strong vs Colossi, you won't even need Vikings which means mass ghosts counters the dual AoE of Protoss. I pulled that definition straight from the BW liquidpedia so it may not fit well into Starcraft 2, but making small tweaks to make it work does not seem like a tough thing to complete. Ideas for making it work in SC2 - Lockdown cost 200/200 at ghost academy - Reduce range of skill from 8 to 7 making it harder to hit units such as collosus and safely feedback with a single templar if they try to get in close. (or even make the ghost a light unit allowing more dmg from collosus) - 150 energy cost to use skill Just a few I could think of off the top of my head. An actual balance team could do way better than I. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
On December 04 2013 11:25 Ouija wrote: I pulled that definition straight from the BW liquidpedia so it may not fit well into Starcraft 2, but making small tweaks to make it work does not seem like a tough thing to complete. Ideas for making it work in SC2 - Lockdown cost 200/200 at ghost academy - Reduce range of skill from 8 to 7 making it harder to hit units such as collosus and safely feedback with a single templar if they try to get in close. (or even make the ghost a light unit allowing more dmg from collosus) - 150 energy cost to use skill Just a few I could think of off the top of my head. An actual balance team could do way better than I. Sounds fine if you move EMP to the Raven and also make the Raven require a fusion core. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
The second you see High Temps terran players go for Ghosts, but somehow that's impossible for Mech players to do vs Immortals. It's not exactly as if you're not floating a lot of resources playing mech either. The most you would need is 2 Barracks producing Ghosts to counter-act any Immortals or High Temps. They can also EMP any other Toss units. In addition to this a single Ghost is capable of 2 EMPs at the same time (with enough energy) which in essence can remove up to 200 health from a group of units almost instantly. Yes, it regens but not if you engage directly afterwards. Yet you'd rather complain about how Immortals are OP still. You guys already have a solution to the issue, just being so damn stuck in your ways and use it. If nothing else you can HSM the damn things, spell damage doesn't get reduced on Immortals. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 04 2013 12:47 lost_artz wrote: I still find it hilarious Mech players refuse to build ghosts for EMP. The second you see High Temps terran players go for Ghosts, but somehow that's impossible for Mech players to do vs Immortals. It's not exactly as if you're not floating a lot of resources playing mech either. The most you would need is 2 Barracks producing Ghosts to counter-act any Immortals or High Temps. They can also EMP any other Toss units. In addition to this a single Ghost is capable of 2 EMPs at the same time (with enough energy) which in essence can remove up to 200 health from a group of units almost instantly. Yes, it regens but not if you engage directly afterwards. Yet you'd rather complain about how Immortals are OP still. You guys already have a solution to the issue, just being so damn stuck in your ways and use it. If nothing else you can HSM the damn things, spell damage doesn't get reduced on Immortals. Thanks Mr. Expert in TvP Mech, I don't know what us, poor mech terran players, woulld do without your incredible hindsight of the matchup. | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On December 04 2013 12:52 Faust852 wrote: Thanks Mr. Expert in TvP Mech, I don't know what us, poor mech terran players, woulld do without your incredible hindsight of the matchup. You're welcome, but really it's not as if Ghosts are some unobtainable solution all you need is a Barracks (+tech lab ofc), 150/50 and 40 secs for an Academy. Ghosts themselves build in 40secs for 200/100 and start with 50 energy - 75 is needed for EMP. In less than 90 seconds real time you can already have ghosts to counter Immortals (or sentries/HT if that's an issue which I highly doubt). Getting in the habit of instantly going for a few Ghosts when you see Immortals isn't that unreasonable. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 04 2013 12:47 lost_artz wrote: I still find it hilarious Mech players refuse to build ghosts for EMP. The second you see High Temps terran players go for Ghosts, but somehow that's impossible for Mech players to do vs Immortals. It's not exactly as if you're not floating a lot of resources playing mech either. The most you would need is 2 Barracks producing Ghosts to counter-act any Immortals or High Temps. They can also EMP any other Toss units. In addition to this a single Ghost is capable of 2 EMPs at the same time (with enough energy) which in essence can remove up to 200 health from a group of units almost instantly. Yes, it regens but not if you engage directly afterwards. Yet you'd rather complain about how Immortals are OP still. You guys already have a solution to the issue, just being so damn stuck in your ways and use it. If nothing else you can HSM the damn things, spell damage doesn't get reduced on Immortals. When pro players "refuse" to use a certain unit that may feel like an obvious solution, theres usually plenty of reasons why they choose not to. You obviously have no idea what they are but they are there, trust me. In cases like this its better not to act like a smartass unless you yourself can prove everyone wrong and make it work in actual games against top protosses. Can you? | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On December 04 2013 13:17 Bagi wrote: When pro players "refuse" to use a certain unit that may feel like an obvious solution, theres usually plenty of reasons why they choose not to. You obviously have no idea what they are but they are there, trust me. In cases like this its better not to act like a smartass unless you yourself can prove everyone wrong and make it work in actual games against top protosses. Can you? It doesn't matter if I can, nor do I play Terran. I suppose we should all just go back to the days of thinking Marines can't be split vs. Banelings too. All it takes is for someone to actually TRY rather than complain about how X needs to be changed because of Y. As I've already said you have the solution try actually using it and see how that works out for you. Until then there's no need to change the game. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 04 2013 13:30 lost_artz wrote: It doesn't matter if I can, nor do I play Terran. I suppose we should all just go back to the days of thinking Marines can't be split vs. Banelings too. All it takes is for someone to actually TRY rather than complain about how X needs to be changed because of Y. As I've already said you have the solution try actually using it and see how that works out for you. Until then there's no need to change the game. And what makes you think people haven't tried? | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On December 04 2013 13:42 Bagi wrote: And what makes you think people haven't tried? Nothing, nonetheless the game has changed. Each race has had their respective buffs and nerfs and with the most recent buffs to Mech it's stronger than ever before. The added DPS on air units (upgrades) vs. Colossi and Siege Tanks (increased ROF) vs. ground units can more than make up for investing a few supply into Ghosts. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 04 2013 13:57 lost_artz wrote: Nothing, nonetheless the game has changed. Each race has had their respective buffs and nerfs and with the most recent buffs to Mech it's stronger than ever before. The added DPS on air units (upgrades) vs. Colossi and Siege Tanks (increased ROF) vs. ground units can more than make up for investing a few supply into Ghosts. Innovation did ghosts, Avilo does ghosts, Thorzain does ghosts. While playing mech. They don't win much more. With mech. | ||
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