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On December 01 2013 01:32 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 01:28 tar wrote:On December 01 2013 01:14 KingofGods wrote:
Every mirror matchup has "build order wins". Being "build order countered" does not mean you instantly lose. I suspect the reason why most Ps don't like PvP is because most Ps don't like to initiate the action, they would rather sit back and fight with their 200/200 deathball army. Since both players are P, you now have both players sitting back and waiting until their 200/200 deathball armies before an attack.
Yes I realize there is a lot of action going on in the first 8 mins of a PvP, but if no one has died before then they won't be dying for a while. that doesn't even make any sense: if what you said'd be true, then the tosses you describe would love PvP since they could just try to play save to the 8 min mark and then sit back and build the 200/200 army they are so in love with. Except they don't want to play against another PROTOSS 200/200 army. Playing against a 200/200 bio army or a 200/200 roach army is very much different from playing against a 200/200 protoss army.
ahhh yes, because you can just a move against a 200/200 bio army... forgot about that 
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no...... that's not what I was implying.............but ok.
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then what were you implying?
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I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
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United States4883 Posts
On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
The reason why protoss plays better at higher foods is because their army is set up around having a bunch of strong, expensive tech units supported by gateway units; in other words, in order to fight a bio army, protoss HAS to have colossus plus storm plus a healthy gateway count in order to even take on the army. Protoss players don't rush to maxed supply because it's the best way to play, they rush for it because it's the only way to play. That, however, does not mean that "a 200/200 army is stronger than a 200/200 zerg or terran army." That is a false statement. a ghost/viking army is just as powerful as a protoss deathball late game, as is a BL/SH/infestor/hydra/queen army.
As far as lategame PvP goes, it's all about positioning and maintaining an economy advantage while making sure you don't trade awfully against your opponent. In PvP, almost all of your advantages lie in how strong your reinforcement warpin after a fight is.
Early game PvP sucks because there's a large variety of bullshit things you can lose to. Which, I imagine, is why terran and zerg players hate playing against protoss as well. It's a double-edged sword, I suppose :p.
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I thought the power of the warp in after the fight was pretty obvious and didn't need to be spelled out but apparently not. In PvP, your protoss opponent will have the exact same quick warp in ability which nullifies your own which makes my statement of protoss players needing to find advantages elsewhere still true. Trying to make sure your maxed out army doesn't get beat down is exactly what the protoss players are good at, controlling their 200 / 200 deathball army.
No, I'm afraid you are wrong in thinking rushing to a 200 food army is the only way to play as protoss. Countless cannon rushes and other forms of protoss all ins on ladder and high profile tournaments have shown otherwise. Protoss players prefer to play that way because that is what they are comfortable with and to them is what they feel gives them the best opportunity to win. Whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant, their perception that that is true makes them play that way.
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I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced.
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I think he will do well, but he needs to give himself more time to learn the build orders interactions.
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On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced.
So.................are you trying to say my statement is not true or are you actually agreeing with what I am saying? Because it sure as heck sounds like you are trying to be confrontational.
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On December 01 2013 03:56 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced. So.................are you trying to say my statement is not true or are you actually agreeing with what I am saying? Because it sure as heck sounds like you are trying to be confrontational.
I was agreeing with your point, but just adding that this is very much by design, and if it wasn't the case that 200/200 protoss armies are stronger than bioballs or roach armies, the game would be horribly imbalanced.
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its a smart decision. im not saying i like it. david kim surely is aiming for terran extinction.
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On December 01 2013 03:00 KingofGods wrote:
No, I'm afraid you are wrong in thinking rushing to a 200 food army is the only way to play as protoss.
Why are we arguing this in almost 2014? This has been an obvious fact for forever lol It's not even the best way, and generally not even really a good way unless you're defending against aggression
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Nothing wrong with what hes doing. He has free will and its his choice to change races if he wants too.
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Does anyone know his toss account? I think I saw it on sc2ranks few weeks ago but I think he have changed the name.
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On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
Deathball vs roach ball? lol
same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach
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On December 01 2013 04:48 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win". Deathball vs roach ball? lol same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach
No way bro, 800 forcefields op. Just tickle the roaches to death 1 at a time.
Edit: 400 forcefields, because sentries are 2 supply, duh.
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On December 01 2013 05:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 04:48 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win". Deathball vs roach ball? lol same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach No way bro, 800 forcefields op. Just tickle the roaches to death 1 at a time. Edit: 400 forcefields, because sentries are 2 supply, duh.
just burrow
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around 90 protoss and 40 terrans in eu gm at the Moment. you'd better prac pvp
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i guess protoos style suits everyone better.
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EPT
