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WCS 2014: Partial Region Lock, GSL returns, and more - Pag…
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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SorrowShine
698 Posts
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theMagus
578 Posts
On November 22 2013 03:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread. Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it. It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile. I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero. after blizzard explicitly stating why they reduced the number of tournament seasons in a year (and hence the resulting overall prize pool is somewhat reduced compared to past years) which is to give third-party tournament organizers chances to flourish, you still have people who would just rather find some ulterior motive behind their decisions. contrast this to how some people, on the other hand, were complaining that blizzard is ruining the scene by aiming to control everything in it. this will annoy people who can see this happening :/ | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
Hmm. I knew it was postponed, but not indefinitely. Oh well. The point still stands, though. There may be an increased incentive to making such kind of events, as they may qualify as WCS events. On November 22 2013 02:09 ffadicted wrote: [First part of post]+ Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 00:55 vjcamarena wrote: Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points. Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the best league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there. Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts? Understandable, but think about it. Region lock the way they did it is fine and dandy, but there's two much easier and natural ways of doing it: 1. Offer more money at all levels in Korea 2. Offer higher chance of making it to the Global Finals They tried doing 1, but failed at it because they're giving it all to first place. I could have gotten my conversion rates wrong, but looks like every spot other than first makes LESS money in Korea than they do in EU and AM, so from there, there is almost no incentive for koreans currently in AM and EU to leave and go back to korea to revive the scene with more competition, and expand the foreigner field in AM and EU As far as 2 goes, same thing. You think that equal points will help foreigners, but it won't, it'll keep koreans in AM and EU, cuz at the end of the day, unless you're winning the whole thing, you're gonna get the same amoutn of points and more money in FAR FAR easier regions... IMO even more koreans should jump ship and head to AM and EU now, and that's what I would suggest if I was their managers. [Second part of post]+ Show Spoiler + Blizzard tried, but at the end of the day, by not giving more points to KR (their fault) and the stupid prize distribution (GOM's fault), they have failed at trying to do what they set out to do. And as far as the events outside of WCS, that's a moot point really, as only privileged koreans can manage to go and would've gone anyway regardless of these changes. Killing this region debate was actually an easy 3 step process: 1. Offer significant more money to Koreans from top to bottom as financial incentive for Koreans to compete back home. They have failed at this. The top level Koreans capable of winning the giant first place prize were already competing in WCS Korea. The mid/lower end koreans have no financial incentive to go play in a harder tournament to make less money. They have failed completely in this task. 2. Offer somewhat larger chances of making it to Global Finals by increasing the point pool. Doesn't have to be massive, but give incentive again for lower/mid tier koreans to compete back home by giving more points out to good performances in the hardest tournament in the world. They did nothing to mitigate this, and failed completely. There is no point incentive to go back home. 3. Host more tournaments for Koreans in Korea. This is up to third parties GOM, OGN, etc... GSL is now reduced to 3 a year instead of the old 5, and OSL is gone completely. No other tournaments announced. This is by far a worst case scenario. So the way I see it, how have they improved anything? The Korean scene is still f*cked with no way to help it improve coming in 2014. This soft region lock does little to help with the Korean invasion, as they still have some spots to sneak in from, and it'll be very hard to eliminate the current Korean population from those two tournaments (don't get me wrong though, this is good if blizz and GOM are gonna do jack sh*t about the points and prize distribution). The only improvements I see are (hopefully) better non-WCS events feeding into the WCS system, and the scheduling. Overall, 2014 is going to be a bad year for Starcraft in Korea unless something huge gets announced (more tournaments from third parties there, GOM hosting more than just the WCS GSLs, OGN making miraculous OSL comeback, etc...) I really would love to hear from blizz a response to this since kimaphan is lurknig in this thread, but I won't hold my breath lol PS: For the record, I'm not blaming this all on Blizzard. It's partially on them, partially on GOM, partially on OSL and partially on the non-existant third parties holding tournaments lol EDIT: Wooo, 3K posts ^^ Sexy Templar I hid the rest of your post because I was only going to comment on the one thing I bolded. If I missed some crucial connection that was mentioned elsewhere, my apologies. Anyway, I think you're underestimating how hard it will be for a Korean to actually get into WCS AM or EU. For AM (just for season 1), only three new Koreans will get to enter each season and for EU only six (which becomes two and four, respectively from season 2 onwards). That means that they don't get to stomp Americans or Europeans automatically by playing in a different region, first they have to prove that they are the three/six best Koreans to do so. If a bunch of Koreans did as you suggested and tried out in AM or EU, the ladder wildcard tournament might be the most stacked part of the tournament. Moreover, after having fought with loads of other Koreans for a top3/top6 placing, there's a 50% chance to face another Korean in a single, decisive Bo5 in Challenger League in AM (and 1/6 chance in EU, but that's not too bad). Doesn't sound like ez mode to me I don't know if there will be limitations in attending GSL qualifiers if you're trying to qualify for AM or EU, but if there are, then that would be another roadblock. Besides, the ladder wildcard isn't just for Koreans, it's for absolutely everyone in Masters who chose that region, if I understood it correctly. You never know; there might even be some strong foreigners there  But I agree fully that the Koreans who are already in AM/EU would be mad to leave, at least the way things seem to be right now. | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
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pretensile
135 Posts
1) WCS Korea has a much larger prize pool than AM and EU. The total prize pool for Korea is less than 20% larger than either AM or EU. Are Koreans only 20% better than their other-regional counterparts, or have only 20% more progamers in sum? That is up for you to decide. 2) The prize pool for Korea has been dramatically inflated. The first place prize (70 million won) is sizeably larger than those of GSLs past (50 million won), and many times larger than the 22.4 million pot of previous WCS Koreas (poor Soulkey, Maru, and Dear!). But the total prize pool is only 15% greater than WCS seasons in 2013 -- and that's not including the now-defunct season finals. And the pool is essentially the same as GSLs of the past; only $4-5k USD, depending on exchange rates, separates them. However, there are only 3 GSLs now, compared to the 5-7 of previous years. That said, I think Blizzard is just about doing all that it can -- and probably should -- do. Whether you agree with their changes at times or not, their support of their game has been far and beyond the call of any other developer/publisher in the RTS genre. Personally I would have liked to see how the tournament ecosystem would have evolved naturally on its own without the WCS system -- the way it did from 2010 to 2012 -- but I suppose that ship has sailed. And when it comes to ships sailing, it pains me to say it, but I can't help but think a further downsizing of the Korea scene is in order. Korea has by far the most developed progamer/team culture and history, but frankly that doesn't mean much if there isn't the funding or popularity to support it. It is not incumbent on Blizzard or even GOM to continually sink funds into the Korean scene if there isn't the audience to buoy it; even in pro sports, you only expand franchises and leagues into regions and cities where the interest is deemed sustainable. In terms of StarCraft 2 popularity alone, it's clear the EU region should be the most richly rewarded and invested in, from a business perspective. And also from a business perspective, if Mr. Chae believes that having a lopsidedly top-heavy prize pool is the way to go in order to generate hype and interest (even at the expense of other players), then all I can do is support him. At this point, all I can do is sit back, enjoy the games, and hope for the best! | ||
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JJH777
United States4392 Posts
I really don't like getting rid of the season finals. That means the only times we will see players in different regions playing against each other is at blizzcon or occasionally at things like Dreamhack and IEM but at those tournaments it won't be the best of the best from each region it will just be a random mashup of players. It also means that Blizzcon isn't going to be the absolute best because representatives from Korea now have way less opportunity for points. The players in WCS AM/EU are the koreans that go to tons of foreign events. The Koreans that play mostly/only in Korea are going to be pretty screwed for getting to blizzcon unless OGN really does do some OSLs. It will be very possible that we could have someone win one of the GSLs next year and not get to Blizzcon. That will be completely ridiculous if it happens and it is a very large possibility with the removal of season finals and just the new point setup in general. Korea barely has more prize money than the other regions and it all went to first place.... This is not going to lure a single Korean back to GSL. It needed like double the prize pool. It also should have been given more points not just prize money. | ||
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Krayze
United States213 Posts
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
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vjcamarena
Spain493 Posts
On November 22 2013 02:09 ffadicted wrote: Understandable, but think about it. Region lock the way they did it is fine and dandy, but there's two much easier and natural ways of doing it: 1. Offer more money at all levels in Korea 2. Offer higher chance of making it to the Global Finals They tried doing 1, but failed at it because they're giving it all to first place. I could have gotten my conversion rates wrong, but looks like every spot other than first makes LESS money in Korea than they do in EU and AM, so from there, there is almost no incentive for koreans currently in AM and EU to leave and go back to korea to revive the scene with more competition, and expand the foreigner field in AM and EU As far as 2 goes, same thing. You think that equal points will help foreigners, but it won't, it'll keep koreans in AM and EU, cuz at the end of the day, unless you're winning the whole thing, you're gonna get the same amoutn of points and more money in FAR FAR easier regions... IMO even more koreans should jump ship and head to AM and EU now, and that's what I would suggest if I was their managers. Blizzard tried, but at the end of the day, by not giving more points to KR (their fault) and the stupid prize distribution (GOM's fault), they have failed at trying to do what they set out to do. And as far as the events outside of WCS, that's a moot point really, as only privileged koreans can manage to go and would've gone anyway regardless of these changes. Killing this region debate was actually an easy 3 step process: 1. Offer significant more money to Koreans from top to bottom as financial incentive for Koreans to compete back home. They have failed at this. The top level Koreans capable of winning the giant first place prize were already competing in WCS Korea. The mid/lower end koreans have no financial incentive to go play in a harder tournament to make less money. They have failed completely in this task. 2. Offer somewhat larger chances of making it to Global Finals by increasing the point pool. Doesn't have to be massive, but give incentive again for lower/mid tier koreans to compete back home by giving more points out to good performances in the hardest tournament in the world. They did nothing to mitigate this, and failed completely. There is no point incentive to go back home. 3. Host more tournaments for Koreans in Korea. This is up to third parties GOM, OGN, etc... GSL is now reduced to 3 a year instead of the old 5, and OSL is gone completely. No other tournaments announced. This is by far a worst case scenario. So the way I see it, how have they improved anything? The Korean scene is still f*cked with no way to help it improve coming in 2014. This soft region lock does little to help with the Korean invasion, as they still have some spots to sneak in from, and it'll be very hard to eliminate the current Korean population from those two tournaments (don't get me wrong though, this is good if blizz and GOM are gonna do jack sh*t about the points and prize distribution). The only improvements I see are (hopefully) better non-WCS events feeding into the WCS system, and the scheduling. Overall, 2014 is going to be a bad year for Starcraft in Korea unless something huge gets announced (more tournaments from third parties there, GOM hosting more than just the WCS GSLs, OGN making miraculous OSL comeback, etc...) I really would love to hear from blizz a response to this since kimaphan is lurknig in this thread, but I won't hold my breath lol PS: For the record, I'm not blaming this all on Blizzard. It's partially on them, partially on GOM, partially on OSL and partially on the non-existant third parties holding tournaments lol EDIT: Wooo, 3K posts ^^ Sexy Templar I can see whereyou're coming from, but I'm not sure it's time (yet) to be that pessimistic. Mr. Chae just said this in an interview. (Interview transcription) Q; There are many complaints about GSL decreasing the number of tournaments 3 in 2014.? A: We wanted to run GSL this year, too, but could not. However, we will begin next year with the thought of starting fresh. We are trying to make a system that puts much thought into the teams and players. There are only 3 tournaments with the name “GSL”, but the possibility of creation of new tournaments is high. Business viability of that possibility will be explored. Remember, we have no idea about the number of Koreans watching GOMTv. Even if it were smaller than other games' crowds, that wouldn't mean there isn't a viable Korean crowd. Yesterday's CJEntus vs EvilGeniuses (as a very simple not at all scientific example) seemed to have about half the korean-speaking viewers as english-speaking viewers on twitch... And there's also the possibility of making korean-accessible, korean-watchable tournaments in South East Asia... My point is: let's wait and see whether Korea can fund more tournaments. If they can, maybe we're just worrying too much, and both money and points will sort themselves out? | ||
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j1nzo
Germany367 Posts
also GSL mo'fos! | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
2 5 HerO America 3450 3 3 Jaedong America 3150 4 9 MMA Europe 2850 5 1 Soulkey Korea 2750 6 11 TaeJa America 2750 7 2 INnoVation Korea 2600 8 10 MC Europe 2525 9 17 Revival America 2450 10 7 Maru Korea 2425 11 23 HyuN America 2400 12 16 NaNiwa Europe 2200 13 14 Mvp Europe 2100 14 15 duckdeok Europe 2050 15 31 Life Korea 1925 16 12 sOs Korea 1850 17 18 Oz America 1850 18 24 soO Korea 1800 19 6 Dear Korea 1750 20 19 Rain Korea 1750 21 27 VortiX Europe 1650 22 13 aLive America 1625 23 37 StarDust Europe 1600 24 20 ForGG Europe 1525 25 30 Stephano Europe 1525 26 21 Scarlett America 1450 27 26 TLO Europe 1450 28 8 Bomber Korea 1425 29 42 LucifroN Europe 1400 30 32 Symbol Korea 1350 This is how the WCS rankings would have looked without the Season Finals. It looks closer to the real list than I thought which is a good thing. I still think that removing the Season Finals will make it harder for WCS Korea players to be fairly represented at Blizzcon, because it's such a competitive region that it can be extremely difficult to be consistent. For example everyone says how sOs had a bad S2/3, but in S2 he was eliminated in RO32 because he lost a BO1 to Maru and a BO1 to soO (Who are both WCS Korea finalists). The Koreans locked into WCS EU/AM have it easy because the number of new Koreans going in to challenge them is small so they'll mainly be competing amongst each other for the rest of the year. A lot of the EU/AM Koreans are also those fortunate enough to be sent to most foreign tournaments as well. HerO, JD, Polt and TaeJa are pretty likely to make it to Blizzcon 2014 IMO, unless Korean teams step it up and send a lot of players to foreign events, or if we get other Korean events that award WCS points such as OSLs, but OGN doesn't seem to be interested in doing so. | ||
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sigm
192 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:39 GolemMadness wrote: That's not the equivalent of the winner being some random guy who won by accident, though. SC2 is a volatile game. Among the top players often times any one of them could win an event. If you run the same event immediately again, perhaps someone other among them would win it. The guy who wins the number one place tends to be overhyped. The real strong ones shine when you see them make the top group again and again over a long period. Instead of giving even more points to the event winner, distribute the points in a more balanced fashion, so that you don't create artificial hype behind players who win one event and then almost completely disappear. Those guys then just come to the year final to be beaten by more consistent players. It's already a problem that the winners from the beginning of the year are going to be weaker than the winners from the end of the year when all of them come to the year finals. Adding even more points to the winners makes this problem even bigger. Hopefully you'd understand what I mean now. | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
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sCnInfinity
Germany82 Posts
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rename
Estonia329 Posts
On November 22 2013 13:23 JJH777 wrote: I really don't like getting rid of the season finals. That means the only times we will see players in different regions playing against each other is at blizzcon or occasionally at things like Dreamhack and IEM but at those tournaments it won't be the best of the best from each region it will just be a random mashup of players. It also means that Blizzcon isn't going to be the absolute best because representatives from Korea now have way less opportunity for points. . I would not worry about that too much. In korea, GSL has been on for almost non-stop with very few breaks. With upcoming 6-week periods of no individual competition between seasons, there is way more room for some extra korean tournaments - and with established studios, the only thing seperating smaller GomTV/OGN ran tournament from WCS points is the decision "should we go 10k or 25k prize pool?". | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On November 23 2013 00:48 sCnInfinity wrote: So Polt will win every Season of WCS AM Yeah it's kinda sad we can already say that Polt and Jaedong will be at Blizzcon. | ||
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monsta
172 Posts
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