After an exciting and successful global finals at BlizzCon, the 2013 StarCraft II World Championship Series has come to a close. All of our partners, including GomTV, OGN, NASL, ESL, MLG, and Twitch, did a remarkable job in producing WCS and bringing StarCraft II eSports to a global audience. We're now ready to share details on what's happening in 2014.
We've been in constant talks with our partners and key figures in the eSports community to level up WCS for 2014. Together we've come up with some changes that we hope will improve WCS and continue to build toward a self-sustaining StarCraft II eSports ecosystem.
In 2014, StarCraft II WCS will remain a three-season event operated from three primary regions -- America, Europe, and Korea -- broadcasting matches in primetime from each region over Twitch. The global ranking system for players will remain as the glue tying together all the league competition as well as partner events. And there will be a total $1.6 million prize pool with a final year-end global finals for the top-ranked players.
Linear, Easy to Understand Schedule
In order to fit three seasons within a compressed timeline last year, it was necessary for Challenger League and Premier League to overlap. This structure was difficult to follow at times, and Challenger League was also overly complex.
New WCS League Format
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In 2014, WCS will feature a much simpler system. In America and Europe, the bottom 16 players from the previous season’s Premier will be waiting in Challenger. Qualifier tournaments will be played to identify 16 players to challenge the former Premier players. Challenger will then take place, consisting of 16 best-of-five up-and-down matches between a qualifier and a Premier League dropout to identify the next Premier League players.
This system provides a number of benefits. Qualifiers, Challenger, and Premier league can now be run in sequence. It's easier to understand, and with fewer Challenger matches to play, there's more importance placed on each match. And since the schedule doesn't overlap, players are now free to transfer between regions between seasons.
Timing and Broadcasts
We expect seasons to last around 10 weeks, with an emphasis on broadcasting Premier League play in each region. Challenger and Qualifier play may be broadcasted via community channels or directly by the partner, at the discretion of NASL and ESL. We expect Premier League to broadcast 2 days per week, with a span of about 6 weeks separating each season of Premier League. With so much more open space in the broadcast schedule, we hope to allow much more breathing room for third-parties to broadcast tournaments without fear of overlapping WCS. More details on the 2014 WCS schedule will come next month.
Season 1 - Transition
Also note that as part of the transition from 2013, Season 1 Challenger of America and Europe will have a total of 48 players. The 24 players from each respective Season 3 2013 Challenger League will be taking on 24 new players from Season 1 Qualifiers. The top 24 players who win their Challenger match will join the 8 exisiting players in order to fill out a full 32 player Premier League roster in each region. In subsequent seasons, the system will revert to the bottom 16 players of Premier taking on a fresh set of 16 qualifiers in Challenger up-and-downs.
Korea will work slightly differently, which brings us to the next point -
GSL is Back!
In 2013, we set up 3 uniform leagues across 3 global regions that mirrored each other in branding, prize money, rules, and other areas. As we move into 2014, we recognize that Korea needs to operate a little differently. In the GSL, Korea already had an established league, with the best StarCraft II players in the world. GSL was the model for other WCS regions. Going forward, GomTV will be the sole partner for StarCraft II WCS in Korea, and it will operate the region using the GSL name, as well as its classic league designations: Code S (Premier League), Code A (Challenger), and Qualifiers.
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GSL will also feature higher prize pools in each season to reflect the added challenge of competing in the region. Aside from differences in naming and prize money, GSL will continue to have 24 players fall out of Code S each season to take on 24 new qualifiers in Code A in each season. This differs from WCS America and Europe having 16 players fall out of Premier and down to Challenger per season. Code A competition will feature group stages, which is different from the basic up-and-down matches that America and Europe will operate. These differences represent regional preferences communicated to us by GSL.
OGN has been a dedicated partner for WCS Korea 2013. In addition to hosting a season of WCS Korea and a Season Final, OGN also broadcasted the WCS Global Finals live from BlizzCon on November 8-9. With the goal to provide a more streamlined experience for both the players and the audience, OGN will not be hosting WCS Korea 2014. OGN has rights to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II tournaments alongside WCS and will be able to run WCS global events that offer WCS points. Additionally, OGN will remain our partner outside of the WCS and will produce entertainment shows and tournaments for Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft.
More Opportunities Reserved for Local Players
We purposefully made the WCS an open system last year. While our intention was to have a sprinkling of players venture into other regions, we failed to anticipate the high volume of international players competing outside their home regions. Going into 2014, we're making an adjustment that affects qualifier slots into WCS America and Europe. Korea remains unaffected because the GSL system is and has always been a completely open for anyone who can attend the live qualifier.
Qualifier Breakdown
WCS America
# of slots
Season 1 Exception
USA/Canada/Latin America
8
12
China
2
3
Oceania/Southeast Asia
2
3
Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macau
2
3
Ladder Wildcard
2
3
WCS Europe
# of slots
Season 1 Exception
Europe/Africa/Middle East
12
18
Ladder Wildcard
4
6
In 2014, we will reserve most qualifier slots for citizens and legal residents of the home regions for both WCS America and WCS Europe. Since America has become the home WCS region for players from countries such as China, Australia, and Taiwan, we will reserve qualifier spots for players from those specific regions as well as the Americas. Ladder wildcard spots will have open enrollment with no citizenship or residency restriction, but still have a master's level requirement with a minimum number of ladder wins within that regional server. Master's level will also be required across all qualifiers. The Qualifiers for Season 1 WCS 2014 will take place in January -- look for details about these in December.
By reserving the bulk of qualifier spots for players from the home region, we hope to increase opportunities for local players, while a few wildcard slots still keep opportunities open for players of other regions to participate.
WCS Global Events
Criteria
Requirements
Map Pool
WCS Season Maps (same as ladder)
Number of Players
16+
Global Qualifiers
At least 25% of the top 16 spots must be attainable by global entrants
Format
Matches must be at least Best-of-3 in Top 16
Points
WCS points can only be awarded after advancing at least one round
Player Rights
Conform to the WCS Player Bill of Rights and Responsibilties
Branding
WCS and StarCraft II branding
Total WCS Points
7000
4000
1800
1st place points
1500
750
300
Prize pool minimum
$75,000
$25,000
$10,000
# of players on-site
8+
8+
4+
Global Stream/Broadcasting
Free 720p in English
Free 720p in English
Free 480p in Local Language
On-Site Casters
Required
Required
Optional
Player Booths
Booths required
Sound Dampening
Sound Dampening
Live Audience
Required
Required
Optional
The WCS partner events were successful last year at tying in tournaments outside the WCS league structure into the overall WCS umbrella. By creating three different types of partner tournaments, we hope to have an expanded number of these partner events in 2014 and give players more opportunities to compete and gain WCS points outside of league play. We're also aiming to have a more even geographic distribution of partner events in 2014.
Become a WCS Partner
If you're interested in setting up a partner tournament that feeds into the WCS ranking system, please contact us at sc-tourneyinfo@Blizzard.com. **Note that meeting the requirements listed above does not automatically grant you partner status -- we'd like to work with you directly to ensure your event fits well into the schedule and doesn't overlap other partner events.
More Emphasis on Regional League Play
In 2013 we set up a system where the top finishers in each region met in a global season final for more prize money and more WCS ranking points. While these events were exciting and impactful, it took away some luster from the accomplishment of winning a region, and created a situation where top finishers from the region who made a global final and performed well for a weekend were able to quickly pull ahead in rankings and prize money. In 2014, we will no longer hold global season finals events.
Code S Point Distribution
GSL Code S (Korea)
Points Awarded (2014)
Points Awarded (2013)
1st
2000
1500
2nd
1000
1000
3rd-4th
750
750
5th-8th
500
500
9th-12th
300
300
13th-16th
200
200
17th-24th
150
150
25th-32nd
100
100
GSL Code A (Korea)
Points Awarded (2014)
1st-24th
Advance to Code S
24th-48th
50
WCS America & Europe Point Distribution
WCS AM/EU Premier
Points Awarded (2014)
Points Awarded (2013)
1st
2000
1500
2nd
1000
1000
3rd-4th
750
750
5th-8th
500
500
9th-12th
300
300
13th-16th
200
200
17th-24th
150
150
25th-32nd
100
100
WCS AM/EU Challenger
Points Awarded (2014)
1st-16th
Advance to Premier
17th-32nd
50
WCS Global Events Point Distribution
WCS Global Event 7000 Points
Points Awarded
1st
1500
2nd
800
3rd-4th
550
5th-8th
400
9th-16th*
250
WCS Global Event 4000 Points
Points Awarded
1st
750
2nd
500
3rd-4th
375
5th-8th
250
9th-16th*
125
WCS Global Event 1800 Points
Points Awarded
1st
300
2nd
200
3rd-4th
150
5th-8th
100
9th-16th*
75
* Points will only be awarded to players that have advanced at least one round. If there are not enough players in the event to satisfy this requirement for all top 16 players, not all points will be awarded.
We also hope to have additional partner events in 2014 to give players more opportunities to gain points in the WCS ranking system.
Code S Prize Distribution
GSL Code S (Korea)
Prize Money (2014)
Prize Money (2013)
1st
70,000,000 KRW
$20,000
2nd
15,000,000 KRW
$12,000
3rd-4th
8,000,000 KRW
$7,000
5th-8th
4,000,000 KRW
$3,500
9th-16th
2,400,000 KRW
$2,000
17th-32nd
1,500,000 KRW
$1,500
Total
160,200,000 KRW
$100,000
GSL Code A (Korea)
Prize Money (2014)
1st-24th
Advance to Code S
24th-48th
700,000 KRW
WCS America & Europe Prize Distribution
WCS AM/EU Premier
Prize Money (2014)
Prize Money (2013)
1st
$25,000
$20,000
2nd
$15,000
$12,000
3rd-4th
$7,500
$7,000
5th-8th
$5,000
$3,500
9th-16th
$3,000
$2,000
17th-32nd
$2,000
$1,500
Total
$131,000
$100,000
WCS AM/EU Challenger*
Prize Money (2014)
1st-16th
Advance to Code S
17th-32nd
$600
*Season 1 exception: There will be 48 Challenger players in WCS America and WCS Europe Season 1. The top 24 players will advance to premier and the bottom 24 will earn $600.
WCS Global Finals
WCS Global Finals
Prize Money (2014)
Prize Money (2013)
1st
$100,000
$100,000
2nd
$50,000
$45,000
3rd-4th
$15,000
$17,500
5th-8th
$7,500
$7,500
9th-16th
$5,000
$5,000
Total
$250,000
$250,000
Prize Pool
We've also redistributed much of the prize money that would have gone into the Season Finals back into regional finals events to reflect their added importance. GSL features a more top-heavy distribution to reflect Korea's regional preference, while America and Europe have a more even distribution of prize money between top and bottom. Additionally, cash prizes are now being made available to those who compete in Challenger.
Summing it Up
In summary, the 2014 WCS will feature:
A linear, easier to understand schedule that allows more room for third-party tournaments
The return of GSL, with more prize money funneled into the Korea region
A partial region lock, where the bulk of qualifier spots are reserved for players from the home region
More WCS Global Events with partner tournaments , for additional competition and opportunities for players
More emphasis on regional play, with additional points and prize money for Premier League players compared to 2013
We also hope to maintain the strengths of what made WCS in 2013 so compelling to watch throughout the year. The global ranking system was a great addition to the ecosystem that helped tie all major competition together. We'll continue to broadcast top-level StarCraft II eSports in primetime across America, Europe, and Korea. And the entire system will climax at an exciting year-end global final featuring the world's very best players.
More details can be found in our FAQ, and in December we expect to announce the full schedule for 2014, as well as details about the first qualifier events for 2014 which will take place in January.
Q: What are the changes you've made to WCS 2014 and how do they improve the system?
A more linear schedule In 2014, WCS will feature a more linear schedule and simple structure that's easier to understand and should allow more open space in the calendar for StarCraft II eSports competition that lies outside of regular WCS league play
Partial region lock In response to feedback, we've set up a system where a large number of qualifier spots in Europe and America are reserved for residents of those regions.
GSL is back Korea will be operated by GomTV under the GSL name, and will feature increased prize money for the most competitive region.
More WCS Global Events We will work more proactively with partners to set up a wider range and better geographic distribution of WCS Global Events that award ranking points. This should create additional competition opportunities for players
More emphasis on regional play with additional points and prize money for Premier League players By removing Season Finals events, we can better reward and recognize players for accomplishments in Premier League play.
Q. How does the Ladder Wildcard qualifier work?
Players must be ranked in master league and have at least 200 ladder wins on the home region ladder (American server for WCS America, Europe server for WCS Europe) in the season leading up to the ladder wildcard deadline. Players must use their registered ladder account that includes a name similar to their official player handle (no barcodes or smurfs). Specific details about all qualifier formats, deadlines, and signup pages will be released by NASL and ESL.
Q. You created a partial region lock. Why not a full region lock?
While we do want to make sure there are fair opportunities for players to compete in their home regions, we still want to ensure that the WCS system is working to bring top level competition to viewers and identify the world's best StarCraft II players through the global ranking system. WCS as of 2013 was not intended, nor designed to be an Olympic style competition that completely isolates regional players from each other before having them compete on the global stage. We explored the Olympic style system in 2012, and for the most part, the regional events received low global viewership or little support.
We think the partial region lock will be a good compromise that helps open up more chances for local players while not overly diluting the level of competition.
Q. In light of the partial region lock for America and Europe, what happens to the existing Korean and European players in Premier and Challenger?
The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level. Once any players drop out, they must re-qualify through through the designated WCS 2014 Qualifier slots.
Q. Can players switch between WCS regions?
Players can only compete in one region at a time. If a player wishes to switch, they may declare a new region after being eliminated or at the end of a season. Any player that switches to a different region will be required to qualify through the designated WCS 2014 Qualifier Slots.
Q. What are the designated WCS Qualifier Slots?
In 2014, qualifier slots are reserved for citizens and legal residents of the home regions for both WCS America and WCS Europe. Since America has become the home WCS region for players from countries such as China, Australia, and Taiwan, we will reserve qualifier spots for players from those specific regions as well as the Americas. Ladder wildcard spots will have open enrollment with no citizenship or residency restriction, but still have a master's level requirement with a minimum number of ladder wins within that regional server. Master's level will also be required across all qualifiers.
WCS America
# of slots
Season 1 Exception
USA/Canada/Latin America
8
12
China
2
3
Oceania/Southeast Asia
2
3
Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macua
2
3
Ladder Wildcard
2
3
WCS Europe
# of slots
Season 1 Exception
Europe/Africa/Middle East
12
18
Ladder Wildcard
4
6
Q. What are the requirements for a player who wants to compete in a specific country or region's Qualifiers?
If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier.
Q. What is the deadline for a player who wants to transfer to a different region for Season 1 2014?
If a player wants to transfer from an existing region to a new one, he/she must declare the region transfer to Blizzard by December 15, 2013 and will be required to qualify into the new region through the new qualifier system.
Q. Why does GSL (Korea) get more overall prize money and a much higher top end prize than America and Europe?
The overall prize pool in Korea is higher than America and Europe as an acknowledgment of the higher level of competition in the region. The top heavy distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference.
The America and Europe prize pools feature a more even distribution from top to bottom in order to better recognize the achievement of all players who make it into Premier League.
Q. Will the Global Finals take place at BlizzCon again?
There will be a live Global Finals event for the WCS in 2014. We have not made any announcements about the next BlizzCon.
Q. In 2013 there was a lot of broadcasted WCS content within very compressed time periods. Some in the community felt the volume of WCS content squeezed out opportunities for third-party tournaments to take place. How will the 2014 system fix this?
We plan to focus primary attention on broadcasting Premier League content and keeping those broadcasts to two days a week during each season. That leaves three weekdays open plus the weekends during WCS Premier League play for other third-party competitions to take place. Also, with more time over the year to stretch out three seasons of WCS, there will be multi-week-long breaks between Premier League play where other competitions to take place. And without any Season Finals events, more weekends are open over the course of the year for additional partner tournaments.
Q. You said last year there would be four seasons of WCS in 2014. Why are there only 3?
Again, after evaluating what happened in 2013, we felt it was healthier for the ecosystem to not run such a compressed schedule, and allow more breathing room for other StarCraft II tournaments to take place.
Q. Will Round of 32 Premier League be conducted live or online in America and Europe?
This has not been decided yet. We’ll be working with our partners to determine what’s best and we will let you know if there are any changes.
Q. Why are you discontinuing Season Finals?
The reason we’re moving away from them is to put more emphasis on the achievements of players who do well in regional league play. We're distributing more prize money to the regional leagues in order to compensate for the absence of Season Finals events. Nonetheless, we do hope to work with partners to schedule and showcase a couple of major WCS Global events, which would potentially spotlight top players from each region and give them a place to compete. Stay tuned.
Q: Why does Premier League in Europe and America only force the bottom 16 Premier League players down to Challenger, while GSL in Korea forces the bottom 24 players to defend their Code S spot?
We feel that the simplification of the Qualifier and Challenger process in Europe and America should create plenty of opportunity for new players to get into Premier League. In 2014, a prospective new WCS Europe or WCS America player needs to win a qualifier spot, then win just a single, best-of-five match in Challenger to jump up into Premier League. Also, in the first season of 2014 in Europe and America, a full 24 qualifiers in each region will have the chance to get into Premier.
Q. Why is OGN no longer operating WCS? Does GomTV now have exclusive WCS rights? Was the decision mutual among all parties?
The 2014 plans were developed through extensive discussion and collaboration with all partners, and with feedback from community figures. While OGN did a great job with producing Starleague, the Season 1 Finals, and the Korean language version of the WCS Global Finals stream at BlizzCon, we decided that the switch off between GomTV and OGN from season to season in Korea was confusing and redundant in many cases. OGN remains a great partner for Blizzard and will move forward with producing broadcast content related to Hearthstone. They also retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. While nothing is currently planned, it is possible they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license for such an event.
As for GomTV, their involvement with WCS is not an "exclusive" deal, but we believe the consistent broadcast for all three seasons in Korea will be beneficial for fans.
Q. Will KeSPA players continue to participate in WCS 2014?
WCS is open for all players who wish to compete. We believe every player should have the right to decide how and where they participate in StarCraft II eSports. We look forward to seeing continued participation from KeSPA players in WCS 2014.
I'm happy a tournament is actually simplifying things for once. It seems like so much of the industry is hell bent on reinventing the wheel every time they make a tournament format.
Really like the changes overall. I tihnk they're going in the right direction. While I'm really happy to have the name of GSL back, I am a little worried about newcomers understanding that GSL is synonmyous with the Europe and America counterparts. Other than that, everything looks solid, and I feel there's a lot of promise for 2014 =D
On November 21 2013 07:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: we failed to anticipate the high volume of international players competing outside their home regions.
Funny how Blizzard changed their tune.
Either way, I'm really happy and excited about this. Maybe now they can focus on making the game a bit more dynamic, so we don't see the same stale strategies over and over.
Huge improvement. Really excited for this. Especially excited about the move linear seasons, meaning someone can switch regions and, if they play well enough! play in premier league that very season. Praying for an Mvp return to GSL to take his G5L trophy. Really liking the partial season lock, too. Exciting times. 2014 is looking like a good year for Starcraft.
I do have a question. With the top 8 of last seasons Wcs America being korean. Do they still remain in premier league of wcs america? Or are they going to do a complete swipe in people?
the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
On November 21 2013 08:17 AmuseD wrote: Good post !
I do have a question. With the top 8 of last seasons Wcs America being korean. Do they still remain in premier league of wcs america? Or are they going to do a complete swipe in people?
Looks great, just not too sure about the map requirement for tournaments to qualify for giving WCS points. Having tournaments like Red Bull Battlegrounds taking the winner of the TLMC shouldn't be a reason why they can't contribute to WCS in my opinion (though there's other reasons why they wouldn't qualify anyways, I know, just an example).
Seems like a definite improvement overall. I'm not sure how the players themselves feel about the elimination of seasonal global finals, but I definitely felt that it had the impact of devaluing the regional tournaments and their champions by tacking on a quick weekend tournament afterwards that had more prize money up for grabs. So I kind of like that they're gone.
70.000.000 Won is roughly 66.000 dollars. Pretty damn good pricepool. I feel a bit sad that OGN is gone, I really enjoyed listening to Doa and Montecristo.
The ladder spots are open to everyone on the planet I assume?
I think the vast majority of these changes are great. The one thing I don't like is that apparently there will only be 3 major Korean tournaments the whole year, but I recognize that relates more to the decreased popularity of SC2 in Korea and is not Blizzard's fault. I hope (cross my fingers) that OSL will run at least one or two leagues also, and perhaps even GSL will too? Things like offline versions of "side" tournaments like AoL, etc... Also hoping that there will be more IEMs, DreamHacks, etc, but I just always found GSL much, much more interesting than all of the "weekend" events
Edit: One other thing I don't like is the Challenger League format for EU and NA. It'll be very random since it'll all depend on who you happen to get paired up with. But the KR Challenger League format sounds great; real groups instead of the weird bracket/U&D hybrid.
On November 21 2013 08:21 NovaMB wrote: 70.000.000 Won is roughly 66.000 dollars. Pretty damn good pricepool. I feel a bit sad that OGN is gone, I really enjoyed listening to Doa and Montecristo.
The ladder spots are open to everyone on the planet I assume?
Glad to see GSL get an increase in prize money over the other regions as it deserves it. Not a fan of how top heavy gsl is, but gsl requested that so I guess that's what they want.
Changes overall are great; however, without the global finals each season, are players losing out on more money? Or did they expand on region prize money?
On November 21 2013 08:17 AmuseD wrote: Good post !
I do have a question. With the top 8 of last seasons Wcs America being korean. Do they still remain in premier league of wcs america? Or are they going to do a complete swipe in people?
Q&A says they stay until knocked-out.
Which means they won't be knocked out for quite a while, unless they hit another Korean in their (single) Challenger match.
Challenger seems overly harsh now. Get a tough opponent or have a bad day? gg gl qualifying again. Not necessarily a bad thing, should keep a nice rotation of fresh meat coming in.
I feel like these are some good changes to the WCS system. Especially the fact that Korea is getting a higher status seems legit. Getting curious about the pro's reactions...
On November 21 2013 08:23 wUndertUnge wrote: Changes overall are great; however, without the global finals each season, are players losing out on more money? Or did they expand on region prize money?
That's a great question and the numbers are there, but I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but I'm sure someone else will soon.
I find it interesting that the article says that OGN has rights to broadcast both Starcraft and Starcraft II. It probably still won't mean any Brood War content showing up, but one can dream .
Anyways, really cool changes so far. Blizzard has definitely been listening to community feedback.
Well I was against region lock so I'm not thrilled by this obviously. If they really have to do that, though, I just wish they had more spots depending on ladder participation than they have right now, two feels a bit of a stretch.
On November 21 2013 08:21 NovaMB wrote: 70.000.000 Won is roughly 66.000 dollars. Pretty damn good pricepool. I feel a bit sad that OGN is gone, I really enjoyed listening to Doa and Montecristo.
The ladder spots are open to everyone on the planet I assume?
OGN can still run OSL if they want.
Well I preferred the OGN "piggyback broadcast" over Tastosis, I'm sad about that.
Wait Challenger league is a single bo5 now? Thats pretty bad if you happen to run into your worst matchup
On November 21 2013 08:23 wUndertUnge wrote: Changes overall are great; however, without the global finals each season, are players losing out on more money? Or did they expand on region prize money?
That's a great question and the numbers are there, but I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but I'm sure someone else will soon.
I think the important thing is that the events lasting longer in general will probably end up creating more opportunities for other events to run around WCS. I think there's a good chance that more money becomes available over all. Of course only time will tell.
The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Difference between 1st and 2nd place prize at GSL Code S is unbelievable. This should be changed otherwise the players in the final will make a deal before the games are even played. That's not what we want, right?
On November 21 2013 08:28 KingLeonardo wrote: Difference between 1st and 2nd place prize at GSL Code S is unbelievable. This should be changed otherwise the players in the final will make a deal before the games are even played. That's not what we want, right?
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
I think you'll have a lot of them leaving for GSL, but this is a great compromise. I'm sure some of the pros aren't going to be happy, but from a spectator point of view I think a lot of us who were pro-region lock will be pleased.
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
Yes. The existing koreans have to be fully knocked out, which only then will they be screwed by the new qualification standards. Good luck to NA players trying to knock them all out though!
Lots of greats changes and improvements here. But there are still a few problems left (WCS America still filled with Koreans, still only 3 tournaments in Korea so few chances for so many players....) but one that really bothers me is the map pool requisite. If they don't change 3 or 4 maps each ladder season, it's going to be very boring T_T
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
Almost certainly, top 8 last season was 7 Korean + MacSed, there are apparently 14 Koreans still in Challenger
Region locking is only for qualifiers which is good. GSL is back and with a larger* (or old prizepool) and OGN can still run their own tournament if they want.
WCS AM and EU become an ongoing league for constant competition. Overall a lot of good improvements that should have happened years ago.
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
Almost certainly, top 8 last season was 7 Korean + MacSed, there are apparently 14 Koreans still in Challenger
I'm not 100% certain, but didn't they say that only the top 8 in premier stay, and every single other spot will need to be qualified for?
I like! prizepool -format in korea is terrible. Only the 1st get more money next year. 2nd /3rd etc lesser than this year. my suggestion: 1st a bit lesser and 2nd/3rd/4th a bit more.
Overall, I really like the changes they made :D Korea prize pool distribution seems crazy top heavy which I had thought was a problem in the region. Weird that they would ask for it?
On November 21 2013 08:30 GoodSirTets wrote: Maybe an editing mistake, but you have the prizepools and distribution numbers for code S listed to be the same as AM an EU, which I gather they aren't supposed to be.
I made the same mistake at first, but the picture is actually right. Look closer
On November 21 2013 08:30 GoodSirTets wrote: Maybe an editing mistake, but you have the prizepools and distribution numbers for code S listed to be the same as AM an EU, which I gather they aren't supposed to be.
Overall, I really like the changes they made :D
they aren't one table shows 2013 prize money while the other is 2014
Good job Blizzard, it looks like you've taken on board most of the issues from this year. I also noticed the twitch requirement has been dropped, maybe this will open the doors for other streaming companies.
I love it, this is what it should have been from the start. Hopefully next year Blizzard can add on WCS China so the NA/SA don't have to share everything.
GSL being able to run WCS on it's own, good choice! OGN still being able to run events on the side opens up for another OSL no?
The bad things that could be horrible is Blizzard taking sole charge of the Map Pool. Judging from their new additions I really really really really really hope they actually have meetings with the Community Mapmakers, Blizzard needs to listen!
Challenger being a single bo5 is not ideal imo, prefer the GSL system a lot more but I guess it's better than a single bo3.
So a tournament can't give out WCS points if they have a non-ladder map pool? I'm kinda disappointing about that but if they do a decent job with the ladder pool it might be okay. As long as we have team leagues for other maps it could work out.
It all looks pretty good. I think it's a good improvement from 2013.
On November 21 2013 08:30 Dingodile wrote: I like! prizepool -format in korea is terrible. Only the 1st get more money next year. 2nd /3rd etc lesser than this year. my suggestion: 1st a bit lesser and 2nd/3rd/4th a bit more.
Article says that GSL specifically requested that the 1st place prize be much higher than the other prizes. I guess for marketing since the 1st place prize is what everyone pays attention to.
On November 21 2013 08:23 wUndertUnge wrote: Changes overall are great; however, without the global finals each season, are players losing out on more money? Or did they expand on region prize money?
That's a great question and the numbers are there, but I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but I'm sure someone else will soon.
I think the important thing is that the events lasting longer in general will probably end up creating more opportunities for other events to run around WCS. I think there's a good chance that more money becomes available over all. Of course only time will tell.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Really liking the idea of keeping slots open for locals. Should be a great equalizer. I was just hoping they'd find some kind of ladder integration...then I'd have a chance
Looks really good, hopefully it pans out well! I wonder if many tournaments will be willing to put up the 75k in order to be a top tier independent event. Seems pretty un-likely, considering the decline in prize pools over the past year.
I think this is actually really really good. Especially the partial region lock and money for top 32 in challenger. That's really going to encourage people to keep playing to compete in their regional WCS. Which is only a good thing for growth of the scene.
On November 21 2013 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote: So if I'm understanding this correctly, the only way that Koreans can compete now outside of Korea is through the Ladder Wildcard matches.
Man, the North American ladder is going to be brutal soon.
Yes, except that the Koreans already in Premiere/Challenger are grandfathered in. And to be honest, it's going to be kind of tough to knock them out given that their competition will mostly be non-Koreans. Still, this is probably a fair way to do it. Having a single Bo5 in Challenger League will give non-Koreans the chance to practice for and snipe their Korean opponents.
As predicted: Every time Blizzard does something the first time, they fuck it up. And then, the second time around, they learn from their mistakes and do a much better job.
On November 21 2013 08:37 SAFenix wrote: So prize pool for KR just went up like 3.3X
Hmmm, I just checked, isn't it just +50%? (a substantial increase, but nowhere close to *3.3)
It went from 20,000$ to ~66,000$? That certainly isn't 50%.
The first place prize went up a lot, but the other prizes went down somewhat (article says GSL requested a "top heavy" prize pool). It still increased somewhat overall though.
YESSSSSSS finally Blizzard makes us proud So excited to the GSL back, it was so sad to Tastosis cast OGN feeds in an empty studio. And the soft region lock sounds like a good compromise
The one thing that surprised me was the qualification opportunities for Koreans in other regions. If I'm reading this right they can only qualify via the 2 ladder wildcard spots. When they said partial region lock I figured more like 50/50 local/global qualifiers.
The foreigner-korean mix should be fine with all the koreans seeded from 2013, but I wonder how many will switch back to GSL with the increased prize pool? I guess it won't be that many since the difference is only for first place.
Is there something that stops this system from being full korean in the long term, btw?
Like, let's say two koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, then they perform well enough to stay in Premier League, then next season two other koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, and so on?
"The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014"
Doesn't this kind of defeat the entire purpose of the semi region lock? Those Korean players are never going to fall out, and so the spots supposedly dedicated to regional players simply won't exist.
On November 21 2013 08:45 Conti wrote: As predicted: Every time Blizzard does something the first time, they fuck it up. And then, the second time around, they learn from their mistakes and do a much better job.
I didn't understand shit about the region thing for America, can someone explain it to me?
I'm not sure if I'm dumb, the language barrier is acting like crazy, or if it's really confusing
so from what I got, there are 16 spots reserved as explained in the first column of the tabe (8,2,2,2,2). but reserved for what? the qualifier phase? or for the premier league?
and does that mean that there are only 2 spots ("ladder wildcard") reserved for the koreans?
Looks nice, I'm really looking forward to the new old GSL :D Also, does this mean we can now stop with all the region lock speculation discussion threads or do we just headstart into demanding things for 2015?
On November 21 2013 08:45 Conti wrote: As predicted: Every time Blizzard does something the first time, they fuck it up. And then, the second time around, they learn from their mistakes and do a much better job.
Nice.
Except as per usual: even their "fucked up" version is still pretty good. The Global Finals at blizzcon did not disappoint, (unless of course you're a Jaedong fanboy.)
On November 21 2013 08:46 Nebuchad wrote: Is there something that stops this system from being full korean in the long term, btw?
Like, let's say two koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, then they perform well enough to stay in Premier League, then next season two other koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, and so on?
This is going to reduce Korean participation in EU and NA because only 2 can qualify at a time. And if you don't qualify you get nothing. At some point it's better to just go back to KR and get at least SOME money from even a low place Code S finish.
Edit: But yes, it's technically possible for Premiere League to become all-Korean in all regions if this goes on with no changes for several years but I doubt that will happen.
On November 21 2013 08:46 Nebuchad wrote: Is there something that stops this system from being full korean in the long term, btw?
Like, let's say two koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, then they perform well enough to stay in Premier League, then next season two other koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, and so on?
With only 3 seasons, that's 6 total koreans. It can't happen this year I don't think. I guess it depends how they carry over for 2014 to 2015 though.
On November 21 2013 08:46 JP Dayne wrote: I didn't understand shit about the region thing for America, can someone explain it to me?
I'm not sure if I'm dumb, the language barrier is acting like crazy, or if it's really confusing
so from what I got, there are 16 spots reserved as explained in the first column of the tabe (8,2,2,2,2). but reserved for what? the qualifier phase? or for the premier league?
and does that mean that there are only 2 spots ("ladder wildcard") reserved for the koreans?
Yes those spots are reserved to the qualifier phase and have nothing to do with challenger or premiere. And yes only 2 new koreans can qualify per season via the wildcards, but the koreans already in challenger/premiere can just defend their spot so you will still see Jaedong etc in AM most likely.
On November 21 2013 08:46 Nebuchad wrote: Is there something that stops this system from being full korean in the long term, btw?
Like, let's say two koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, then they perform well enough to stay in Premier League, then next season two other koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, and so on?
This is going to reduce Korean participation in EU and NA because only 2 can qualify at a time. And if you don't qualify you get nothing. At some point it's better to just go back to KR and get at least SOME money from even a low place Code S finish.
Yeah I realize that, that's the reason why I don't like giving only two spots to ladder. I was just thinking ahead a bit.
On November 21 2013 08:46 JP Dayne wrote: I didn't understand shit about the region thing for America, can someone explain it to me?
I'm not sure if I'm dumb, the language barrier is acting like crazy, or if it's really confusing
so from what I got, there are 16 spots reserved as explained in the first column of the tabe (8,2,2,2,2). but reserved for what? the qualifier phase? or for the premier league?
and does that mean that there are only 2 spots ("ladder wildcard") reserved for the koreans?
From what I can see, yes. That's 2 Koreans getting to "challenge" a premier league player per season. Well, 2 "ladder wildcards". But we all know it's going to be 2 Koreans.
On November 21 2013 08:46 Nebuchad wrote: Is there something that stops this system from being full korean in the long term, btw?
Like, let's say two koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, then they perform well enough to stay in Premier League, then next season two other koreans qualify from the ladder thingy, and so on?
With only 3 seasons, that's 6 total koreans. It can't happen this year I don't think. I guess it depends how they carry over for 2014 to 2015 though.
Would it be bad though? Let's say we have a majority of koreans playing in premier league, we still have 14 spots to fight for them each season, and if we do our job right as a community, those 14 spots will get all the hype they deserve.
On November 21 2013 08:46 JP Dayne wrote: I didn't understand shit about the region thing for America, can someone explain it to me?
I'm not sure if I'm dumb, the language barrier is acting like crazy, or if it's really confusing
so from what I got, there are 16 spots reserved as explained in the first column of the tabe (8,2,2,2,2). but reserved for what? the qualifier phase? or for the premier league?
and does that mean that there are only 2 spots ("ladder wildcard") reserved for the koreans?
Yes those spots are reserved to the qualifier phase and have nothing to do with challenger or premiere. And yes only 2 new koreans can qualify per season via the wildcards, but the koreans already in challenger/premiere can just defend their spot so you will still see Jaedong etc in AM most likely.
No, those are challenger spots. There will be a quota for "new" players in Challenger League (players coming in from qualifiers as opposed to falling from Premier). So basically this means that only two "new" Koreans can enter EU and NA Challenger League each season.
OGN remains a great partner for Blizzard and will move forward with producing broadcast content related to Hearthstone. They also retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. While nothing is currently planned, it is possible they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license for such an event.
Is this an implication that Brood War may return to the television screen (in the form of a variety show or something)?
On November 21 2013 08:46 JP Dayne wrote: I didn't understand shit about the region thing for America, can someone explain it to me?
I'm not sure if I'm dumb, the language barrier is acting like crazy, or if it's really confusing
so from what I got, there are 16 spots reserved as explained in the first column of the tabe (8,2,2,2,2). but reserved for what? the qualifier phase? or for the premier league?
and does that mean that there are only 2 spots ("ladder wildcard") reserved for the koreans?
Yes those spots are reserved to the qualifier phase and have nothing to do with challenger or premiere. And yes only 2 new koreans can qualify per season via the wildcards, but the koreans already in challenger/premiere can just defend their spot so you will still see Jaedong etc in AM most likely.
No, those are challenger spots. There will be a quota for "new" players in Challenger League (players coming in from qualifiers as opposed to falling from Premier). So basically this means that only two "new" Koreans can enter EU and NA Challenger League each season.
Yes that's what I meant, it's the number of challenger spots available in the qualifier. Btw note that there are 4 wildcards in EU compared to the 2 in AM.
OGN remains a great partner for Blizzard and will move forward with producing broadcast content related to Hearthstone. They also retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. While nothing is currently planned, it is possible they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license for such an event.
Is this an implication that Brood War may return to the television screen (in the form of a variety show or something)?
Its a nice idea but grandfathering in the region lock is basically going to mean they are never going to get knocked out since the level of competition is so much lower in those regions.
On November 21 2013 08:16 Die4Ever wrote: I guess it's time for me to get to work.
Haha, yes! I'm sure your simulations will be awesome again next year.
Top marks to Blizzard. There are a few things I would like to see a little different (slightly less prize money in NA and EU, more in KR. Larger Challenger system incorporating more fresh blood and maybe 2 rounds instead of 1), but on the whole just excellent!
Please oh please make the qualifiers not a one-and-done deal. By that I mean, don't have the NA qualifiers be a one tournament deal where you have to be playing well that day to qualify. The Season 1 2013 NA qualifiers were the best imo. Multiple qualifier opportunities with a final double elimination qualifier to determine the slots. Would have also been nice to see some of the prize money be taken down and awarded into the qualifiers instead of each qualifier taking a cool $600. But that is a nice cash prize for whoever does ultimately qualify. Should make the qualifiers interesting to watch at least. Hopefully the schedule will be published early enough that all the top local players put it on their calendars and don't miss it.
EDIT: I just realized something. Think of challenger league as basically the first round of premier league and it's a perfect tournament really! You've got 16 seeds who get into the 2nd round, 16 slots in the 1st round from last season's tournament, and 16 qualifiers with the qualifiers getting $600! This is great!
Now players and viewers need to view the qualifiers this way so they are properly hyped. I thought the IEM and Red Bull qualifiers were just plain awesome, so hopefully they will model them in this way.
I like the overall changes that blizzard is willing to make to their WCS system.
I do have one problem... one big one... the fact that if your event is considered to be an WCS global event, you have to use the EXACT map pool as ladder for your tourney... (the other changes I'm more or less fine with them with making your event a WCS global event... like at least having 25% of your top 16 coming from an open pool, at least bo3... branding....). That means basically every tournament that is WCS "conformed" will have the exact same feel as all the other WCS tourneys because we will be seeing more or less the same strategies on the same maps... and that may or may not get boring.
I really like to see tournaments with different map pools, so different stuff can happen. Having the same stuff as everybody is somewhat boring.
I love the fact that there are a number of way to qualify. I also like that Blizzard basically did away with the season finals. Now we can speculate about how someone will do against players from other regions for all season, but have to wait until the end until it happens.
"The top heavy (prize pool) distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference." So, It was Korea who wanted it. Curious.
On November 21 2013 09:00 StarscreamG1 wrote: "The top heavy (prize pool) distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference." So, It was Korea who wanted it. Curious.
Shocking that they wanted more money because they felt they were better.
On November 21 2013 09:00 StarscreamG1 wrote: "The top heavy (prize pool) distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference." So, It was Korea who wanted it. Curious.
Shocking that they wanted more money because they felt they were better.
...He meant shocking that they would put (close to) all the additional money into first place. Why are you always like this?
On November 21 2013 09:00 StarscreamG1 wrote: "The top heavy (prize pool) distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference." So, It was Korea who wanted it. Curious.
Yeah, if they wanted it that way, it's nice that Blizz at least let the Americas and Europe have it our way (more even distribution).
On November 21 2013 09:00 ThePrince wrote: Everything is perfect.
Now the next step to perfection would be:
NO MORE PATCHES. Go go go.
Definitely, or at least not mid-season. In the later part of his career, baseball pitcher Mariano Rivera used pretty much only one pitch, a very good cut fastball. Good thing he was playing baseball and not a video game so no one could nerf it.
On November 21 2013 09:00 StarscreamG1 wrote: "The top heavy (prize pool) distribution was something requested by GSL as well as other Korean influencers, as a regional preference." So, It was Korea who wanted it. Curious.
Shocking that they wanted more money because they felt they were better.
Actually, only the first place gets far more money in GSL compared to EU/AM. Everyone else (2nd-32th) get a little less or the same.
Just thought I would point this out, and maybe I'm exaggerating... but i'm pretty sure that this is the first time where I've read a SC2 thread on this forum and the replies are overwhelmingly positive. That's a huge mind fuck to me! haha.
Good onya Blizzard. You may have actually made the correct choice this time without pissing off the community. Also, well done posters. For once, I don't feel like I need to write a huge fucking response letting people know they're idiots. Give yourselves pats on the back.
I like that GSL is in charge again, but Korea is going to once again be the difficult tournament, while the other regions will be slightly watered down. Awarding the same amount of points from all regions seems wrong in this case. And we'll probably have the Korea region qualifying players curbstomp global finals.
I like that they made the ladder more relevant, and that they didn't region lock too much (yet introduced support for underrepresented regions such as China). We'll see where players will go.
Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
On November 21 2013 09:04 Dingodile wrote: We have now tier1/2/3?! I like to know who can do tournament with 75k prizepool. Only Redbull I guess
I feel that the new Tier 2 is like the old Tier 1 etc. The Tier 1 seems to be for the really big non WCS tournaments like DH Winter (if DH Winter wouldn't been in WCS offseason)
Very stupid move to inject all the additional money into 1st place in GSL. A more sustainable system with a more balanced prize pool is more important than 1 guy winning the lottery.
I strongly dislike the new challenger league format, although a lot of the rest of this looks better than previously. A single bo5 match against a random opponent will now determine the new premier league players. Compared to previously having bracket and group stage.
i would, however, not get my hopes too high about a sc2 osl or the korean scene having two premier competitions again. to me it sounds more like ogn and the korean esports scene as a whole are drifting away from sc...
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season)
It's still going to be WCS KR 2, Blizzard just threw Challenger League spots at foreigners out of pity.
EU players were winning most of the WCS EU qualifiers lately too, so that hasn't changed either. Really the only meaningful change is that GSL prize pool has tripled. (but only for 1st place, everyone else gets the same) So unless you win GSL, WCS 2014 is exactly the same as WCS 2013.
All of this sounds to me to be pretty great. I hope that Blizzard's partners (inside and outside the WCS "core") take advantage of the down time available to run more events. (OSL would be nice.)
The note about OGN and Hearthstone makes me chuckle. Maybe Artosis can wear his phat jacket and win his next tournament in Korea!
Overall, I like the changes. Looking forward to seeing all the details going forward, so I can work out what days I need to take off work for serious WCS watching.
On November 21 2013 09:09 goswser wrote: I strongly dislike the new challenger league format, although a lot of the rest of this looks better than previously. A single bo5 match against a random opponent will now determine the new premier league players. Compared to previously having bracket and group stage.
I thought this at first too. Try to think of challenger as the 1st round of premier and everyone who qualifies for the tournament gets $600. It's actually a pretty awesome deal then! So long as they make the qualifiers reasonable.
On November 21 2013 09:09 Incomplet wrote: Very stupid move to inject all the additional money into 1st place in GSL. A more sustainable system with a more balanced prize pool is more important than 1 guy winning the lottery.
I honestly can't think how this could have been any better, I think it would have been a big mistake to remove koreans all together for EU and US as a big part of it is watching foreigners fight Koreans as otherwise it just feels like watching little league, which isn't fair to the quite few really good foreigners. But of course we didn't get to watch many foreigner vs Korea situations, esp in US, as the Koreans took over the majority of the bracket.
No this is EXACTLY what I wanted, also my biggest pet peeve with the GSL all these years has been adresses. Playing two seasons at the same time IS SUCH A BAD IDEA.
nice the way higher prize money for korea should encourage koreans to go back there in hopes of more cash rather than stealing the easy money in am/eu when it was the same.
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season)
It's still going to be WCS KR 2, Blizzard just threw Challenger League spots at foreigners out of pity.
Could you describe to me a system where we instantly get less koreans than the system they have chosen, but that in the same time can't be characterized as "out of pity"?
On November 21 2013 09:15 triforks wrote: nice the way higher prize money for korea should encourage koreans to go back there in hopes of more cash rather than stealing the easy money in am/eu when it was the same.
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season).
Do you really think there won't be 2 Koreans losing a season in challenger league? I would go with an over/under of 2 Koreans losing in challenger per season actually...and then there may also be a few who decide to switch regions.
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season)
It's still going to be WCS KR 2, Blizzard just threw Challenger League spots at foreigners out of pity.
Could you describe to me a system where we instantly get less koreans than the system they have chosen, but that in the same time can't be characterized as "out of pity"?
I re-read it and the biggest change actually seems to be global finals gone. And no, they had a really good system in 2013, they just needed to keep it and trick people into thinking they were changing it, and it looks like they succeeded.
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season)
It's still going to be WCS KR 2, Blizzard just threw Challenger League spots at foreigners out of pity.
EU players were winning most of the WCS EU qualifiers lately too, so that hasn't changed either. Really the only meaningful change is that GSL prize pool has tripled. (but only for 1st place, everyone else gets the same) So unless you win GSL, WCS 2014 is exactly the same as WCS 2013.
Except there is no season finals... Which means the top players will earn less (except Code S winner).
What I like is that a player who reaches RO16 can't be out of WCS anymore. It was a thing that I found ridiculous this year. In Korea you have to win only 1 series (either in Code S or in Code A) to stay in GSL. While in WCS AM/EU, even after winning 2 or 3 series, you could be out of the entire system.
On November 21 2013 09:19 Grumbels wrote: So now WCS AM and WCS EU are going to become even easier for the few Koreans that are in there currently?
Maybe for a while. Hopefully in the long run this system will motivate people to train harder and allow more people to break out and play at the level of Koreans. Time will tell...but I think this is the correct direction.
This looks great to me. Challenger will be much easier to watch. No more everyday broadcast. Also everyone who qualifies for challenger gets $600. That's a lot better than last year.
I wonder how much effect the partial regionlock will have. Foreigners still have to beat the koreans in a bo5 to make them go back home .
GSL with big prize is how it should be. Also no more piggyback broadcasts.
On November 21 2013 09:08 Plansix wrote: Ok, I like this region locking where the only way for the NA players to get a residential league is to knock out the Korea players. If you want them out of your region, you must evict them through force.......of starcraft.
But really, the rate at which Koreans drop out of WCS NA by losing or retiring isn't going to be more than the rate of Koreans entering WCS NA. (2 per season)
It's still going to be WCS KR 2, Blizzard just threw Challenger League spots at foreigners out of pity.
Could you describe to me a system where we instantly get less koreans than the system they have chosen, but that in the same time can't be characterized as "out of pity"?
I re-read it and the biggest change actually seems to be global finals gone. And no, they had a really good system in 2013, they just needed to keep it and trick people into thinking they were changing it, and it looks like they succeeded.
They have addressed every sane critic about the 'no region lock' system.
- No need for foreign players to participate in ladder to qualify. - No exposure at all for the players who can't make it to Premier League. - No money for the foreign scenes. - No incentive for not-top-tier koreans to play in WCS Kr.
In order to criticize the new system, you have to go to the 'insane critic' part: - I don't like koreans, they don't have faces / personalities. - I can't relate to koreans, because they don't live in the same part of the world as me.
So yeah, most people are happy. It's not a trick, it's just that most people aren't insane.
Blizzard always wanted a few Koreans in each region to act as essential "Final Bosses" to the tournament, which makes sense - you want your champion to be the best, and you're only the best if you beat a Korean. But it quickly became overly diluted to the point of parody, and the regional skill was being trampled instead of elevated.
But with the "If you live outside of the region and you want into WCS EU/NA, you have to get in by the ladder wildcard spots," you increase hometown representation while at the same time actually increasing the skill of the ladder in each region. If you have to get 1,000 wins (pulled that number out of no where, don't freak out asking for sources) to get into the NA wildcard spot consideration, that's 1,000 wins you have to get and provide practice for the NA players through.
Basically, I'm glad a company finally came through with their promise to help the NA scene instead of selling us away to the Koreans.
All of that, and we get GSL back?! We get a higher prize pool for them too?!
We got basically everything we wanted, or at least a VERY reasonable compromise. If shit goes foul it's our fault. Blizzard did exactly what we told them we wanted/needed, it's our turn now.
On November 21 2013 09:16 Bowzar wrote: Does Korean teams want extremly top heavy prize money? I feel like they should be pissed about this.
We don't know who decided to divide up the prize money like that. I am sure Mr. Chea and Gom had some input as to how it would be handed out.
Its definitely Gomtv but im just curious to hear the teams/players reaction to this prize distribution. They cant be happy.
Prize Pool We've also redistributed much of the prize money that would have gone into the Season Finals back into regional finals events to reflect their added importance. GSL features a more top-heavy distribution to reflect Korea's regional preference, while America and Europe have a more even distribution of prize money between top and bottom. Additionally, cash prizes are now being made available to those who compete in Challenger.
As in, they did that top-heavy distribution because the Koreans asked for it. So we do know who divided it up like that - Mr. Chae/GOM, who have been working with the teams since Day One. Mr. Chae has been nothing but reasonable with the teams of GSL since the days of the Jinro Ro8's, and he wouldn't have asked for a top-heavy distribution if the teams didn't want it.
On November 21 2013 09:19 Boucot wrote: What I like is that a player who reaches RO16 can't be out of WCS anymore. It was a thing that I found ridiculous this year. In Korea you have to win only 1 series (either in Code S or in Code A) to stay in GSL. While in WCS AM/EU, even after winning 2 or 3 series, you could be out of the entire system.
I thought it was quite difficult in 2013 to dropout. You had to loser your challenger bracket match and then finish last in your challenger group. So you had to drop 3 straight series. Now all you have to do to dropout is finish bottom 16 in premier and lose a head-to-head.
On November 21 2013 09:19 Grumbels wrote: So now WCS AM and WCS EU are going to become even easier for the few Koreans that are in there currently?
Well through the wildcard slots there will most likely still be 2 or 4 koreans each season and many more will try to qualify for those 2 or 4 spots. So there will be a lot of koreans laddering on NA and EU, which should improve the level of the foreign players, thus providing a harder competition over all. Still easier than an infinite number of koreans qualifying, but it's good for the global level of play.
Even if it's true that the AM region still turns into all Koreans over time, I can imagine that still being AWESOME to watch Challenger. 14 locals try to break in to the big time each season. And then after that, you get a whole Premier league of world class players for the rest of the season.
What the hell? Why is GSL's first place prize so much higher than everything else? Seriously, it's almost 5x the second place prize, which is absolutely retarded considering how bad GSL finals always end up being. I value getting to Ro4 twice more than getting 1st once and never returning. If skill was more reflective in SC2, it'd be a lot more understandable, but 90% of the time, the Bo7 finals ends up being mostly risky all-in or aggression. (Yes I read the Q&A, and I think whoever decided this was a good idea should be slapped)
Currently, the second place prize pool for AM/EU is higher than that of Korea, which is pretty stupid. I'm okay with the weighting being top-heavy, just not more than 4x second place. 2.5x second place, maybe? Plus, this makes it harder for Koreans to live off pro-gaming. I don't really know if this is a big deal for Kespa teams or not, but for some teams like fOu, the prize pools are probably a large amount of the income.
Loving the changes except the GSL's prize pool distribution. I felt like it was intended to attract koreans from other regions to return to GSL but the only real difference is a massive first place and they've now made it so GSL players get $1k LESS for top 8 finishes than those in EU/AM.... It's still far easier to make money abroad unless you can win. 70k first 15k second is ridiculous. 50k 20k and 15k spread amongst the 3-8 would've been a better model imo. Chae's tweet shows how clueless he is, haypro's talking about the disparity, not the size.
So total prize money for 2014 is exactly the same as in 2013 at $1.6 million. Season finals prize money has been redistributed to a). Give prize money to Challenger players - good move. b). Slightly higher prizes for AM/EU premier players and more even distribution - good move. c). Triple 1st place GSL prize, slightly lower prizepool for other premier players but challenger leaguers get some cash - overall bad move.
Korean Top 5-6 players were previously able to get a lot of additional money at Season finals, so apart from 1st place GSL there will actually be far less money for Korean players (but the distribution will be to more players due to Challenger prizepool, although $600 every 3 months isn't a whole lot). It's disappointing that GSL requested this distribution as I don't believe it's in the best interests of the players. So I foresee a further increase in retirement of Korean players and shrinking of the scene in Korea UNLESS OGN begins running tournaments alongside GSL.
All the other changes are good apart from the restricted map pool mentioned already. I especially like that with many Koreans practicing the NA/EU ladder to snipe the 6 challenger spots this will increase the skill level of the lcoal ladder and thus local players. So the Premier leagues might not be as fully Korean as we expect, and even the global finals may be more competitive between regions. I await the announcement about whether Ro32 will be offline or not. This may affect how many Koreans try for the challenger spots.
Wow these look like awesome changes. New linear format, all gom all the time, code a groups, perfect region lock compromise, more space for other tournaments, more turnover in AM/EU, no season finals, all good changes in my opinion.
This is great, I sense a spirit of optimism among the posters here now :D These changes needed to happen and a lot of the people confused or complaining should actually READ THE POST! A lot of the questions people are asking it explains right in the post, or the Q&A expands on things as well. Cmon people don't be lazy!
On November 21 2013 09:09 Incomplet wrote: Very stupid move to inject all the additional money into 1st place in GSL. A more sustainable system with a more balanced prize pool is more important than 1 guy winning the lottery.
My guess is that GOM, KeSPA, and the sponsors wanted it this way for advertising purposes. I can't imagine that the players would vote for this outcome.
Interesting. Some positive changes, but what I don't like are:
1. If you're increasing the KR prize pool to encourage KR players to stay and compete there, why is everything from 2nd place downwards exactly on par with AM/EU? Only the #1 prize is higher than the other regions (~$70k vs $25k). So, unless you think you're the next Innovation, there's no added incentive to stay and compete in Code S.
2. BO5 single elimination for Challenger League, with RANDOMLY paired match-ups (1 incumbent vs 1 new)? This should be considered cruel and unusual punishment to the players and their fans.
I really hope Blizzard actively changes the maps per season (like 4 or 6 maps), because watching the same games on the sames maps gets boring very fast.
This is awesome! These changes are awesome! I really like the region locking system. Working towards the future but not punishing the players who invested in a foreign region already. So exited!!!!!
On November 21 2013 09:35 TeslasPigeon wrote: I really hope Blizzard actively changes the maps per season (like 4 or 6 maps), because watching the same games on the sames maps gets boring very fast.
In theory, yeah. But in reality, all tournaments were already using the same map pool anyway.
On November 21 2013 09:09 Incomplet wrote: Very stupid move to inject all the additional money into 1st place in GSL. A more sustainable system with a more balanced prize pool is more important than 1 guy winning the lottery.
My guess is that GOM, KeSPA, and the sponsors wanted it this way for advertising purposes. I can't imagine that the players would vote for this outcome.
GOM acts as chairman for eSF and KeSPA is KeSPA. This decision was probably made with the consent of the teams.
It's late here and I just can't read that wall of text now (love the GSL and good prize pool for KR though). So how many korean players will be able to attend WCS AM/EU?
Well, Blizzard certainly listened to the feedback; These are basically all the changes people asked for. Also: Them Koreans sure like their price pools top heavy o:
On November 21 2013 09:35 Jacmert wrote: Interesting. Some positive changes, but what I don't like are:
1. If you're increasing the KR prize pool to encourage KR players to stay and compete there, why is everything from 2nd place downwards exactly on par with AM/EU? Only the #1 prize is higher than the other regions (~$70k vs $25k). So, unless you think you're the next Innovation, there's no added incentive to stay and compete in Code S.
2. BO5 single elimination for Challenger League, with RANDOMLY paired match-ups (1 incumbent vs 1 new)? This should be considered cruel and unusual punishment to the players and their fans.
The BO5 single elimination does remove against a random player does remove the ability for players to practice against someones style or specifically prepare for them. That was a bit of an advantage for any professional player who has better practice partners and networking. I personally like it since it is a best of 5.
I love all of these changes. The 200 ladder wins for the wildcard slots is an awesome addition.
I have to echo the sentiment about the strange top-heavy payout the Korean region seemed to have wanted. Could it a cultural thing? Or just a number to advertise to potential sponsors?
So this is the same 1.6mil prize pool as last year, and the regular seasons are getting more money to distribute to make up for the lack of season finals. It seems like it will be much more difficult for the top few to make a ton of money over the rest unless you're place first in GSL a few times.
It seems a bit inconsistent to have different local/foreigner ratios across the 3 regions seemingly depending on perceived level and already installed player base. Like, GSL allows everybody because, well, we know no fucking foreigner ain't trespassing :D into Code A, but you gotta be more careful in other regions by keeping some spots for locals and thwart the Korean menace.
With that being said, it's probably what we need (or deserve? huehue) right now, and considering all regions being equal would lead to problems one way or the other...(too many Koreans -read, good players-, if such a thing exists, or not enough). Looks like a good solution to start with. And glad they're reintroducing "GSL", "Code S" and "Code A", looking forward to Tasteless plugging his league without making a mistake :D
Edit: Oh and yeah, I'm a bit confused by the prize repartition in Code S but eh :D
On November 21 2013 09:47 goswser wrote: Is ro32 offline or online?
From the Q&A:
Q. Will Round of 32 Premier League be conducted live or online in America and Europe? This has not been decided yet. We’ll be working with our partners to determine what’s best and we will let you know if there are any changes.
Korea's SC2 scene has been shrinking because they don't have enough local events to participate in, and elitist are going to complain that there aren't enough opportunities for awesome Koreans to participate. I think they should have let OGN run another Korea WCS, and players can only participate if they aren't participating in GSL. Give more money to the Korean scene that desperately needs it and gives the more skilled region better representation.
You guys achieved great compromises. I had my doubts I have to say but you guys... WOW! I am excite. I can't think of a single bad thing to say right now... I'm sure they'll come but this is solid. The only question left in my mind is whether the round of 32 will be offline or online? I would love me some offline action. Great Job everyone & thank you!
So lets say a Korean wants to collect some easy money, how hard is it to get a greencard? I feel like Blizzard should help more with VISA issues. I want to see Violet again.
Having read the whole post and taken the time to let it sink in I think this is generally positive all across the board. Pretty much every major criticism has been addressed and a change has been made for the better.
While this new schedule MIGHT open things up for the return of OSL, I would not hold my breath, the audience wasn't there either on TV or in person, OGN simply has no incentive to run it and with no WCS money going into it you're unlikely to see SC2 on Korean TV again which will contribute to it's further decline.
This is decent news for GSL and some players in the short term as it means a greater focus, but I fear it's going to be a struggle long term.
Thats a big finger in the face of OGN for not putting up the quality desired by the viewers... will be interesting if OSL comes back in the old format?
The way they're distributing all the reserved slots in NA seems weird to me. Just group all the regions you want to reserve slots for together for 18 slots and do 6 wildcard matches, like in EU. No reason to reserve special slots to guarantee representatives from specific regions.
NA feels too restrictive on Koreans too. I think it's lame making WCS arbitrarily more difficult for the best players. A compromise is fine, but it's overboard imo. It's just going to drive players into quitting. And no, as much as people would love for it to happen, it's not going to raise the level of the foreign scene. I think we can be pretty damn certain at this point that that's just never going to happen.
this applies to wcs am eu and gsl?? so way less gsl in 2014?? + Show Spoiler +
Q. In 2013 there was a lot of broadcasted WCS content within very compressed time periods. Some in the community felt the volume of WCS content squeezed out opportunities for third-party tournaments to take place. How will the 2014 system fix this? We plan to focus primary attention on broadcasting Premier League content and keeping those broadcasts to two days a week during each season. That leaves three weekdays open plus the weekends during WCS Premier League play for other third-party competitions to take place. Also, with more time over the year to stretch out three seasons of WCS, there will be multi-week-long breaks between Premier League play where other competitions to take place. And without any Season Finals events, more weekends are open over the course of the year for additional partner tournaments.
On November 21 2013 10:00 Bowzar wrote: So lets say a Korean wants to collect some easy money, how hard is it to get a greencard? I feel like Blizzard should help more with VISA issues. I want to see Violet again.
There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
On November 21 2013 10:07 Dingobloo wrote: While this new schedule MIGHT open things up for the return of OSL, I would not hold my breath, the audience wasn't there either on TV or in person, OGN simply has no incentive to run it and with no WCS money going into it you're unlikely to see SC2 on Korean TV again which will contribute to it's further decline.
This is decent news for GSL and some players in the short term as it means a greater focus, but I fear it's going to be a struggle long term.
Montecristo (OGN caster) said that they wanted to do OSLs but they didnt want to be controlled by Blizzard.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
ya he's overdramatic but he's not wrong in any way
On November 21 2013 10:07 Dingobloo wrote: While this new schedule MIGHT open things up for the return of OSL, I would not hold my breath, the audience wasn't there either on TV or in person, OGN simply has no incentive to run it and with no WCS money going into it you're unlikely to see SC2 on Korean TV again which will contribute to it's further decline.
This is decent news for GSL and some players in the short term as it means a greater focus, but I fear it's going to be a struggle long term.
Montecristo (OGN caster) said that they wanted to do OSLs but they didnt want to be controlled by Blizzard.
Atleast the best thing is they'll be able to use all their own maps again and actually shake up the gameplay like old OSLs used to <33
On November 21 2013 10:00 Bowzar wrote: So lets say a Korean wants to collect some easy money, how hard is it to get a greencard? I feel like Blizzard should help more with VISA issues. I want to see Violet again.
its pretty hard...
Thats what I thought. Didnt Riot fix the visas issues with their players. I remember reading about it.
On November 21 2013 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: Holy shit,
THANK YOU BLIZZARD FOR GIVING KOREA MORE CHANCES The higher prize pool is GREAT
The total prize pool is only 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) more than previous non-WCS GSLs. However, the champion makes 20 million won more ($19k) than previous Code S winners, and everyone outside of the top 16 makes less, especially if they are in Code A.
Also bear in mind that there are only 3 GSLs a year now, which means plenty of vacation time for Tastosis.
I like the partial region lock. It's cool that there will be a ladder wild card, and that this is the only way for someone who is korean to end up in NA. The great part about this is that it forces them to play on NA server, which is good for the NA scene.
At first I liked this, for WCS AM/EU looks nice But then I realized we'll have only 3 GSL through the whole year? If OGN could throw 1 or 2 OSLs, it'd be nice, but I doubt they'll do any
That's not nearly enough (talking as a viewer, no looking at it from the players' side)
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
On November 21 2013 10:00 Bowzar wrote: So lets say a Korean wants to collect some easy money, how hard is it to get a greencard? I feel like Blizzard should help more with VISA issues. I want to see Violet again.
its pretty hard...
Thats what I thought. Didnt Riot fix the visas issues with their players. I remember reading about it.
They lobbied the US government to get LoL recognized as an official sports league or something like that. Probably had to spend a lot of time and money to get the US to okay League.
Man Blizzard really put some serious thought and reflection into this and acknowledged community opinion. I think the changes are solid and I'm excited for next year!
On November 21 2013 10:00 Bowzar wrote: So lets say a Korean wants to collect some easy money, how hard is it to get a greencard? I feel like Blizzard should help more with VISA issues. I want to see Violet again.
its pretty hard...
Thats what I thought. Didnt Riot fix the visas issues with their players. I remember reading about it.
They lobbied the US government to get LoL recognized as an official sports league or something like that. Probably had to spend a lot of time and money to get the US to okay League.
The visa Riot got has a bunch of requirements, including that the players have a contract with the hosting league. WCS would not work under that visa, since the players not not employees of Blizzard.
Also, getting a work/residence visa is super hard.
Wow, really impressed with the changes. I may have quibbles with certain details, but overall I think this is a huuuuuge leap forward from 2013.
I really hope more big 3rd party tournaments start moving back into the space in the schedule that they've created. Would be especially excited if OGN they restarted the OSL (and would cream my jeans if they also revived BW OSL).
On November 21 2013 10:36 ShowTheLights wrote: Holy shit,
THANK YOU BLIZZARD FOR GIVING KOREA MORE CHANCES The higher prize pool is GREAT
The total prize pool is only 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) more than previous non-WCS GSLs. However, the champion makes 20 million won more ($19k) than previous Code S winners, and everyone outside of the top 16 makes less, especially if they are in Code A.
Also bear in mind that there are only 3 GSLs a year now, which means plenty of vacation time for Tastosis.
that's true, but this also gives ogn an equal opportunity to hold wcs-accredited osl tournaments. all the talk about whether or not osl will continue to be held are pretty much speculative at this point. the point is, blizzard has done their part in this, and it's up to ogn to make those tournaments happen. if ogn decides to let go of the osl altogether this year, blizzard can always increase the frequency of gsl next year. we will see
Outside of 1st place, WCS KR actually has a smaller prize pool.
bro always find something to nitpick right? its GOMs decision to have a top heavy Prize distribution, mayb koreans like that
and by your logic outside of 2-32 place korea has almost triple the pricepool of WCS AM / Eu
that doesn't contradict anything i said. and i doubt players like having less money when most of them don't make salaries.
Only at most 3 players will win GSL next year, the rest of the Koreans will not be making much...
They should talk to GOM about that, since they are the ones that likely set the prize money.
Yeah pretty much all to take away from this is that it's bad for Koreans (especially if there end up being 0 OSLs) and pretty good for foreigners.
Well Blizzard can't make OSL cover SC2(or anyone else for that matter). There are more slots in code A, so there are more room for players to move up and stay in the league. I am not worried about the Korea scene, since they have been doing this for a while and can take care of themselves.
Outside of 1st place, WCS KR actually has a smaller prize pool.
bro always find something to nitpick right? its GOMs decision to have a top heavy Prize distribution, mayb koreans like that
and by your logic outside of 2-32 place korea has almost triple the pricepool of WCS AM / Eu
that doesn't contradict anything i said. and i doubt players like having less money when most of them don't make salaries.
Only at most 3 players will win GSL next year, the rest of the Koreans will not be making much...
They should talk to GOM about that, since they are the ones that likely set the prize money.
I don't think there is much to talk about. The players/teams probably prefer a more balanced distribution. However, GOM wants a higher first prize to draw hype. It is what it is. And since KR players generally did better in the season finals, taking those away probably hurt the KR players more. But AM/EU players are earning less overall as well unless the other events increase in prize pool or frequency.
If you add up all the WCS prize pools for 2013 vs 2014. The 2014 pool is actually smaller due to removal of season finals ($150,000 per season finals vs about $122,000 more in KR/EU/AM)
Outside of 1st place, WCS KR actually has a smaller prize pool.
And overall has a larger prize pool.
As stated by Blizz
GSL features a more top-heavy distribution to reflect Korea's regional preference, while America and Europe have a more even distribution of prize money between top and bottom.
KR vs. NA/EU Prize pools - 1st place makes an extra 41K vs NA/EU - Win 2 seasons of NA/EU and you'd come up 16k short compared to 1 KR win - 2nd earns $807 less in KR - 3rd-4th earn $70 more in KR - 5th-8th earn $1226 less than NA/EU - 9th-16th earn $730 less than NA/EU -17th-32nd earn $581 less than NA/EU
I love the AM/EU changes. KR still feels way too top heavy (strange request), but I don't know how much of a role Blizzard can have in that if OGN doesn't jump in.
Thumbs up on the changes, hope everything works for the best.
I'm foreseeing more korean retirements, mostly from soul, azubu, prime, fou. there will be less tournaments in 2014 for those who can't afford be traveling around the world.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I'm a bit worried about Blizzard wanting to control WCS Partner and Global Event. Like Dreamhack or Red Bull Battlegrounds. What does the community think?
Also not sure if partial region lock is good or bad... I guess time can only tell. At least it's better than no region lock.
Am I correct understanding that now, since code A and code S happen chronologically, you can now qualify and win code S in the same season? Ignore the likeliness, just asking about the format.
On November 21 2013 11:40 Zenbrez wrote: Am I correct understanding that now, since code A and code S happen chronologically, you can now qualify and win code S in the same season? Ignore the likeliness, just asking about the format.
Yes. Which, IMO, is an awesome change.
Personally I just hope OSL comes back. Having an OSL and a GSL run at the same time again would be awesome - for me, Rain's dual run in GSL 4 and the Auction OSL was the best story of 2012 and I'd like to see something like that emerge in 2014.
2012: $769,850 USD 2013: $472,800 USD + money from season finals which was mostly snagged by KRs 2014: $454,756 USD - now without the added season finals
Someone plz explain to me why everyone is happy lol
On November 21 2013 11:46 ffadicted wrote: Ok so lol
Total GSL Prize Money (apprx) :
2012: $769,850 USD 2013: $472,800 USD + money from season finals which was mostly snagged by KRs 2014: $454,756 USD - now without the added season finals
Someone plz explain to me why everyone is happy lol
Plus, there are only 3 GSL seasons now - how is that any good...
What do you guys feel about the fact that qualified players are forced to play vs the losers from previous premier league (new vs old)? I have this wierd image in my head where the koreans act like gatekeepers and just slays all the americans that qualify lol. However, if you manage to knock him out, hes likely gone for good.
Looks great, addressed a lot of concerns. A lot of people will bring up potential issues, but...
"Starcraft and Starcraft 2". Is this just an attempt to apologize to the maybe-would-still-be-there BW league, or did OGN specifically request to have rights to both? Or should we just not look into it at all? D:
I am pretty sure it isn't explicitly stated that we'll only get 3 GSLs in 2014. It just says that GSL gets to keep its name within the WCS structure, and that GOM is the sole partner for the main WCS tournament in Korea.
Doesn't say GSL can only run main WCS events. Doesn't say how many GSLs there will be.
On November 21 2013 11:46 ffadicted wrote: Ok so lol
Total GSL Prize Money (apprx) :
2012: $769,850 USD 2013: $472,800 USD + money from season finals which was mostly snagged by KRs 2014: $454,756 USD - now without the added season finals
Someone plz explain to me why everyone is happy lol
It's a better spread of funds. Bear in mind (for AM/EU) Code A is largely "gone." There's just one match now and coupled with no season finals, you have approximately the same amount of money across fewer events. This frees up a lot of available time slots that many organizers struggled with in 2013 as it was basically WCS event or irrelevant.
Of course there's no guarantee that new leagues/events crop up to fill in the time voids, but it's still a big change from 2013 as the opportunity now exists.
I think OGN definitely wants to do some Starleagues, it's their trademark product after all. But it might depend on the popularity of the coming SPL, if it gathers twice or thrice the attention of last year, maybe we will have an OSL in Spring or so
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
I think you'll have a lot of them leaving for GSL, but this is a great compromise. I'm sure some of the pros aren't going to be happy, but from a spectator point of view I think a lot of us who were pro-region lock will be pleased.
Yeah no they won't be. The only Koreans there that can compete in Code S are JD Taeja and Maybe Hero. That is the misconception everyone has about the Koreans coming over. It was never the best of the best. It was Code B and B teamers. Taeja and JD MIGHT go back but doubtful since they are still more likely to make more money in WCS NA.
On November 21 2013 11:53 lichter wrote: I am pretty sure it isn't explicitly stated that we'll only get 3 GSLs in 2014. It just says that GSL gets to keep its name within the WCS structure, and that GOM is the sole partner for the main WCS tournament in Korea.
Doesn't say GSL can only run main WCS events. Doesn't say how many GSLs there will be.
Also we miiiiight still get OSL, you never know.
Yeah that is what I was thinking. I doubt GSL only does 3 tournaments all year and I bet OSL has tournaments also tbh.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
Had to re-read that a few times to get it. I feel stupid now
Also I agree with goswser* . Effectively forcing a 100% commitment to a region through in-person tournaments is a much better option. If you allow some players to compete in NA/EU without being at the actual tournament (even for the Ro32) it almost makes region locks pointless.
Consider if you will - Player A lives in Korea and qualifies for NA WCS BUT the Ro32 is online. If Player A doesn't advance beyond the Ro32 Player A never leaves Korea for WCS. However, if the Ro32 is offline (aka in-person) Player A is now committed to fly to the location (somewhere in the USA) and play in said tournament.
I find your name very confusing as I know it's actually gosu-user but I also say it as "goswser" in my head and I'm like wtf who's this guy every time :D
On November 21 2013 11:53 lichter wrote: I am pretty sure it isn't explicitly stated that we'll only get 3 GSLs in 2014. It just says that GSL gets to keep its name within the WCS structure, and that GOM is the sole partner for the main WCS tournament in Korea.
Doesn't say GSL can only run main WCS events. Doesn't say how many GSLs there will be.
Also we miiiiight still get OSL, you never know.
If that or OGN steps in, then esports is saved. Otherwise, I'm worried for our korean overlords. I think that 70k top prize pool is pathetic hahaha wtf everyone else gets nothing in comparison. What were you thinking GOM?
I'm actually starting to think that ALL THIS couldn't have been better.. not just the changes, but the season 1 (i.e. - the 2013 year) as well..
Saying that because of the following:
If the WCS year 1/season 1 wasn't what it was, there wouldn't have been such a high quality of play in the regions overall.. I mean - sucks for the local players that each region got it's "faithful" group of Korean players, but that's much better place to start with the changes than it would've been to start with them while not having any Koreans per non-Korean region at all..
Very happy Blizz.. Not that you made the right moves, but justified the previous "mistakes" by doing it as well
Now I just hope that the META gets fixed cause of the higher stakes and higher pricepool and the higher pride in all this as well..
========================================================= And as for KR difference in winner-place prize-pool - pretty much think I get it..
Think it's a culture-based decision.. Especially when there's so much history and pride in it, KR wants to represent SC as a national sport (or at least a kind), and therefore the winner be a part of "history in the making" rather than a group of (say 32) very good players battle it out in a few-days tourney and give all the fans the games and having the prize-money divided in a "justified" manner..
In fact I think I am very pleased to know that there's still so much "on the line" in KR with the game.. It's a pretty (if not a veeeery) good sign overall.. :D
Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
On November 21 2013 12:13 Visage814 wrote: Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
but Koreans players that are already qualified are still there (if they chose to say in the region)
On November 21 2013 12:13 Visage814 wrote: Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
but Koreans players that are already qualified are still there
Fantastic changes. Now we just need 1-3 OSL's per year and we are SET ! Proleague, GSL, OSL, WCS EU/AM, big weekend tournaments, tier 2 (HSC) and tier 3 events to promote grassroots. This is pretty sweet ~
On November 21 2013 12:13 Visage814 wrote: Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
but Koreans players that are already qualified are still there (if they chose to say in the region)
...right, but 16 non-koreans are going to be in qualifiers each season. So unless all 16 of the qualifier-seeded players fall in challenger league, it won't be all koreans. right?
On November 21 2013 12:13 Visage814 wrote: Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
but Koreans players that are already qualified are still there (if they chose to say in the region)
...right, but 16 non-koreans are going to be in qualifiers each season. So unless all 16 of the qualifier-seeded players fall in challenger league, it won't be all koreans. right?
well they can still get the ladder wild card or what not... so could still have 3 koreans but they would actually be participating in our scene, since they would have to have atleast 200 wins on our ladder.
On November 21 2013 12:13 Visage814 wrote: Why are so many people saying that WCS NA is going to still be all koreans? Doesn't it explicitly outline what country's players are allowed to qualify?
but Koreans players that are already qualified are still there (if they chose to say in the region)
...right, but 16 non-koreans are going to be in qualifiers each season. So unless all 16 of the qualifier-seeded players fall in challenger league, it won't be all koreans. right?
yes, non-korean will qualify for the challenger, but will they win to go in premier league an kick out the Koreans?
On November 21 2013 11:53 lichter wrote: I am pretty sure it isn't explicitly stated that we'll only get 3 GSLs in 2014. It just says that GSL gets to keep its name within the WCS structure, and that GOM is the sole partner for the main WCS tournament in Korea.
Doesn't say GSL can only run main WCS events. Doesn't say how many GSLs there will be.
Also we miiiiight still get OSL, you never know.
if gomtv plans to run tournaments outside of wcs, i think they should name it differently as having non-wcs-related gsls would be confusing. also, premier and challenger tournaments in other regions only get 3 seasons in a year and gsl shouldn't be any different.
We all knew this was coming. I wish they would just blow up the whole format together and reinforce the other tournaments to create a world circuit. Old habits die hard.
holy shit that's a lot more money for WCS Korea! lot more incentive to play in Korea now though happy about that change. seemed really unfair to have equal prizepool across all regions in 2013
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
Had to re-read that a few times to get it. I feel stupid now
Also I agree with goswser* . Effectively forcing a 100% commitment to a region through in-person tournaments is a much better option. If you allow some players to compete in NA/EU without being at the actual tournament (even for the Ro32) it almost makes region locks pointless.
Consider if you will - Player A lives in Korea and qualifies for NA WCS BUT the Ro32 is online. If Player A doesn't advance beyond the Ro32 Player A never leaves Korea for WCS. However, if the Ro32 is offline (aka in-person) Player A is now committed to fly to the location (somewhere in the USA) and play in said tournament.
I find your name very confusing as I know it's actually gosu-user but I also say it as "goswser" in my head and I'm like wtf who's this guy every time :D
That would be prohibitively expensive, the only Koreans left would be the one on big teams.
On November 21 2013 11:39 geokilla wrote: GSL! GSL! GSL!
I'm a bit worried about Blizzard wanting to control WCS Partner and Global Event. Like Dreamhack or Red Bull Battlegrounds. What does the community think?
I was kind of worried about that as well, but I think we'll really have to wait and see on that. If "control" just means that the events will have to follow certain tournament/quality regulations and throw the WCS logo on to all of their splash screens, that's fine with me. If it's a lot more than that, obviously that's potentially very problematic.
On November 21 2013 12:40 lichter wrote: If HuK is going to complain about NA having slots for SEA/TW/CN I am going to lose it
I don't know what the fuck happened to him, but he has become such a whiner. I think I know why he has been losing so much and it might have to do with his mindset and focus.
I'm 99% sure that only applies to the regional qualifiers. The ladder qualifiers has a game requirement (200 wins) to be eligible and not a residency requirement.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
Had to re-read that a few times to get it. I feel stupid now
Also I agree with goswser* . Effectively forcing a 100% commitment to a region through in-person tournaments is a much better option. If you allow some players to compete in NA/EU without being at the actual tournament (even for the Ro32) it almost makes region locks pointless.
Consider if you will - Player A lives in Korea and qualifies for NA WCS BUT the Ro32 is online. If Player A doesn't advance beyond the Ro32 Player A never leaves Korea for WCS. However, if the Ro32 is offline (aka in-person) Player A is now committed to fly to the location (somewhere in the USA) and play in said tournament.
I find your name very confusing as I know it's actually gosu-user but I also say it as "goswser" in my head and I'm like wtf who's this guy every time :D
That would be prohibitively expensive, the only Koreans left would be the one on big teams.
well the general sentiment is that they would try every possible way to eliminate Koreans from America because of, you know, inferiority complex
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
From what I've read, the changes are what was asked. More money for the most intense scene, partial locks to allow some scene developments and removal of Season finals redistributing the prize money to the other spots in that season. On top of that, can have both GSL and OSL at the same time if GomTV and OGN want to do so. Good job Blizzard!
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
Why do part-time americans deserve spots over players from countries with no WCS (Australia/China)?
On November 21 2013 12:49 lichter wrote: HuK doesn't understand. Korea still need greencards/work VISAs for the US because they aren't on the list.
Korea isn't in China, SEA, or Oceania, or the other countries listed. -_-;;
It wouldn't be the first time he has read something he doesn't get and then goes full Diva and freaks out on twitter. He is such a drama queen at times.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
Thats an interesting point I hadn't considered. I too thought that a offline ro32 would serve a similar purpose to the current soft lock, but it looks like this is better because of the points you raise.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
Thats an interesting point I hadn't considered. I too thought that a offline ro32 would serve a similar purpose to the current soft lock, but it looks like this is better because of the points you raise.
Also at some point we have to accept that WCS might not be the place for part time players. There isn't a lot in NA, but we can't low the level of competition so low that people playing part time can be sure to have a chance.
On November 21 2013 12:49 lichter wrote: HuK doesn't understand. Korea still need greencards/work VISAs for the US because they aren't on the list.
Korea isn't in China, SEA, or Oceania, or the other countries listed. -_-;;
Yeah, this was exactly my thought after watching his vlog. Unless there's some aspect of what he's trying to point out that I'm not grasping, it doesn't seem like there's actually an issue here...?
Edit: lol Never mind! Saw the South East Asia thing. Silly Huk!
As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:00 lichter wrote: I am honestly still in disbelief that they have never identified South Korea on a map, especially for someone who has lived there
I still can't believe that no one from EG has stopped him or told him "Huk, guy, stop. You need to go look at a map or Wikipedia"
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
The funniest part is, Huk's vlog was all about how Europe was fine and AM was still fucked... but if he was right about Korea and SEA, that would mean koreans would have four shots at AM... Exactly the same number Europe has.
So... Yeah?
SCST: it isn't really close to what you preached, though (which is a good thing).
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:04 Nebuchad wrote: The funniest part is, Huk's vlog was all about how Europe was fine and AM was still fucked... but if he was right about Korea and SEA, that would mean koreans would have four shots at AM... Exactly the same number Europe has.
So... Yeah? SCST: it isn't really close to what you preached, though (which is a good thing).
Uh . . . what? I didn't preach anything. Just some form of region lock. Sure you have the right guy?
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:04 Nebuchad wrote: The funniest part is, Huk's vlog was all about how Europe was fine and AM was still fucked... but if he was right about Korea and SEA, that would mean koreans would have four shots at AM... Exactly the same number Europe has.
So... Yeah?
SCST: it isn't really close to what you preached, though (which is a good thing).
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:04 Nebuchad wrote: The funniest part is, Huk's vlog was all about how Europe was fine and AM was still fucked... but if he was right about Korea and SEA, that would mean koreans would have four shots at AM... Exactly the same number Europe has.
So... Yeah?
SCST: it isn't really close to what you preached, though (which is a good thing).
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
Thank you. And that's it? Not bad at all . . . whatever happened to Nestea and MVP, by the way?
My understanding is that anyone that "qualified" for premier will be seeded in challenger. So there would be about a dozen Koreans seeded in the new challenger as players that have "fallen out" of premier. That would explain why there are 48 players in challenger this season.
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
So this has probably already mentioned but apparently OGN has the rights to broadcast Brood War? Would be interesting to see if anything comes of that.
ForGG Daisy San MVP TAILS Shuttle duckdeok MC MMA Stardust Genius
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Thank you, I wish they could have done the majority of these changes earlier but it's understandable not to screw with the system in the middle of the season. Finally a fair system for region locking and a fixed points system. Now the global finals will have a much more accurate player list of the current and consistently best players of 2014.
So WCS AM will have a max of 21/32 Koreans for season 1, and max of 11/32 for EU.
Unfortunately, Ryung, SSanaEE, Petreus, demu, Xigua, Vibe, Goswser, Jonsnow, Hasuobs, noname, jonnyrecco, elfi, Grubby, BBK, Mana, Thorzain don't get to keep their challenger spots and have to re-qualify
On November 21 2013 13:01 SCST wrote: As one of the biggest critics of not region-locking previously, I'm very happy with these changes. I'm actually surprised (almost shocked) at how in-line most of these changes are with what I envisioned.
However, I'm lazy regarding one thing here:
Has anyone figured out yet how many Koreans could potentially be grandfathered into WCS 2014 in Europe and America? I'd like to know the numbers.
On November 21 2013 13:19 SCST wrote: Total Koreans in WCS Season 3 by region:
WCS America [23 players]
WCS Europe [11]
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Total is either 64 or 72 spots, challenger league is included (it's not a league anymore, just a match, but it's included).
edit: also some of the people in your list have retired, and some will probably go back to Korea.
On November 21 2013 13:19 SCST wrote: So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
some players are in seeded in Premier League, the other will have to play the Bo5 match in the Challenger LEague against the players that qualified (with the regional seeds)
On November 21 2013 13:19 SCST wrote: Total Koreans in WCS Season 3 by region:
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Most of those players are in Challenger League. Look back at my posts for the players who are in Premier and Challenger. Some of those players are not in Challenger.
On November 21 2013 13:19 SCST wrote: Total Koreans in WCS Season 3 by region:
WCS America [23 players]
WCS Europe [11]
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Total is either 64 or 72 spots, challenger league is included (it's not a league anymore, just a match, but it's included).
edit: also some of the people in your list have retired, and some will probably go back to Korea.
Ah thanks. Not bad then - pretty much exactly what I was hoping for in all respects.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
Why do part-time americans deserve spots over players from countries with no WCS (Australia/China)?
I think you are missing the point. Based on what the player above is asking, even good NA players cannot always play in the RO32 because the United States is vast and spread out, where will the RO32 offline be held? Going to pay hundreds of dollars for flight/hotel/food + commit time away from work/school to play in the lowest playing round? Even if your goal is region locking, this method also hurts local players.
Going to be terrible for the guy who takes silver in GSL more than ever. The winner gets more than four times the prize money of second place. That's probably the most lopsided distribution in any major event.
I really like all the new stuff. Huge improvement over 2013. I am super excited for all of this. Glad Korea is getting such a large prize pool. Good on Blizzard for investing so much into this. I know people complain about them, but shit a company is throwing money around for this game hand over fist. It is pretty impressive if you ask me.
I'm very excited for these changes! Simplifying how tournaments work is always a benefit to newer watchers, and seeing more weekend tournaments come back and have significant contribution to players in the WCS rankings is awesome! Those tournaments were always my favorite.
My only concern is that players could get a really bad draw in Challenger League, seeing how it's just one bo5. I would've preferred if they did a 32 man, 8 group dual tournament format for challenger (same as ro32 in premier league). But overall, great news from Blizzard
On November 21 2013 13:20 argonautdice wrote: So WCS AM will have a max of 21/32 Koreans for season 1, and max of 11/32 for EU.
Unfortunately, Ryung, SSanaEE, Petreus, demu, Xigua, Vibe, Goswser, Jonsnow, Hasuobs, noname, jonnyrecco, elfi, Grubby, BBK, Mana, Thorzain don't get to keep their challenger spots and have to re-qualify
I think that Ryung is out of WCS America because we was knocked out of Challenger league. I hope that we get clarification soon.
ForGG Daisy San MVP TAILS Shuttle duckdeok MC MMA Stardust Genius
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Only top 24 of challenger league last season stays, so Lucky, Ryung, SSanaEE, Hwangsin, Shuttle, TAiLS are out (and can't come back unless they top the EU/AM ladder), so that makes 19 and 9 Koreans in AM/EU, and 12 + 4 of them are in Challenger, so only 7/32 and 5/32 are Koreans in Premier for sure.
On November 21 2013 13:20 argonautdice wrote: So WCS AM will have a max of 21/32 Koreans for season 1, and max of 11/32 for EU.
Unfortunately, Ryung, SSanaEE, Petreus, demu, Xigua, Vibe, Goswser, Jonsnow, Hasuobs, noname, jonnyrecco, elfi, Grubby, BBK, Mana, Thorzain don't get to keep their challenger spots and have to re-qualify
I think that Ryung is out of WCS America because we was knocked out of Challenger league. I hope that we get clarification soon.
He got third in his group during group stage, which normally means staying in Challenger, but now it seems to mean that he's out (unless he moves to the Americas or top the NA ladder)
ForGG Daisy San MVP TAILS Shuttle duckdeok MC MMA Stardust Genius
So all of these players are grandfathered in? How the hell is it possible to give regional qualifier seeds with this many grandfathered players form outside the region? I'm clearly missing something - anyone help me understand here? Thanks!
Only top 24 of challenger league last season stays, so Lucky, Ryung, SSanaEE, Hwangsin, Shuttle, TAiLS are out (and can't come back unless they top the EU/AM ladder), so that makes 19 and 9 Koreans in AM/EU, and 12 + 4 of them are in Challenger, so only 7/32 and 5/32 are Koreans in Premier for sure.
The only criticism I have is the more skewed distribution in GSL prize money compared to other regions, but I guess this may or may not be relevant since Blizzard did something very positive.
So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
The only thing that bugs me is the new challenger league setup for AM/EU. You have one opponent, one match. Realistically I foresee most of the same 32 players in each season's round of 32. At least people like Taeja should never lose a bo5 to a nonkorean coming up through qualifier, barring health issues.
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
No it doesn't, it says 24+24...
read the (*) on the picture please
Count the number of spots listed under "season 1 exception" please.
Also who would be the "first 12" from challenger league? That's 8 spots from the brackets, and... 4 spots from the groups? That makes no sense.
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
No it doesn't, it says 24+24...
read the (*) on the picture please
Count the number of spots listed under "season 1 exception" please.
Also who would be the "first 12" from challenger league? That's 8 spots from the brackets, and... 4 spots from the groups? That makes no sense.
(*)Season 1 exception will have 36 players coming up from the qualifiers and a total of 48 players in code A (36 old, 12 new...
how doest that make 72? the 12 old are certainly the 12 players that won the 12 brackets in WCS KR Challenger league season 3
On November 21 2013 13:34 Bonkarooni wrote: So does the first Code A season have 72 players in it?...24 qualify, 24 from code A, and 24 knocked down from premier that get to try to qualify again? that seems...insane...
it explicitly say 36 new + 12 old for the first season, for a total of 48 players in Code A
No it doesn't, it says 24+24...
read the (*) on the picture please
Count the number of spots listed under "season 1 exception" please.
Also who would be the "first 12" from challenger league? That's 8 spots from the brackets, and... 4 spots from the groups? That makes no sense.
(*)Season 1 exception will have 36 players coming up from the qualifiers and a total of 48 players in code A (36 old, 12 new...
how doest that make 72? the 12 old are certainly the 12 players that won the 12 brackets in WCS KR Challenger league season 3
No I just wasn't in Korea for some reason. Sorry about that.
On November 21 2013 13:54 Ansinjunger wrote: Well I had no idea South Korea was that close to Japan. I always thought it was bunched up with Laos and Vietnam.
facepalm World geography sure is a skill that needs to be better taught in school t.t
This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
On November 21 2013 14:06 TaishiCi wrote: This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
More to Korea and less to AM/EU is needed.
Lol get real man . . . anyone who retires from Korea because of this is already at the bottom of the barrel.
X3 grand prize pool relative to foreign regions is more than enough difference.
*Edited to reflect "grand" prize pool not total prize pool.
Q. In light of the partial region lock for America and Europe, what happens to the existing Korean and European players in Premier and Challenger? The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level. Once any players drop out, they must re-qualify through through the designated WCS 2014 Qualifier slots.
This means we will still see many Korean players in WCS EU and WCS AM. Things won't change a lot.
On November 21 2013 14:06 TaishiCi wrote: This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
More to Korea and less to AM/EU is needed.
If the Korean SC2 is that weak and desperate for money Blizzard should stop wasting money on a dying scene.
Why haven't any organizations in Korea (GOM or OGN or whomever) made any weekend tournaments with open brackets like DH, MLG, IEM, NASL, IPL, etc? There is nothing stopping someone like GOM to run a weekend event with open brackets (or limited to pro-players/invitees) and offering a prize pool of $10,000 or $25,000 USD. Start crying to companies like GOM and OGN to run more events. You can't depend on Blizzard for everything. Even this past year we had events from MLG, DH, Asus ROG, and IEM that weren't Blizzard controlled and still coincided with WCS.
There is nothing stopping GOM or OGN, take it up with them stop blaming Blizzard for a scene that can barely support what they have already.
On November 21 2013 10:14 Boucot wrote: I really hope they do RO32 offline. Players have to commit in the regions they chose.
Except then it still fucking sucks for Americans (won't speak for Europeans because idk) too, because it's a lot harder for an American to be a full-time professional gamer and simply move their life somewhere to play. In Korea everything is centered in Seoul and there are a lot of team houses.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. A full offline ro32 is the best situation for WCS NA if flights aren't paid for by blizzard because this would region lock America much more than blizzard's stupid new system ever will.
I mean it would region lock it sure but you aren't gonna give very much chance to any American who does not play full time. It completely destroys any chance of up and comers.
Why do part-time americans deserve spots over players from countries with no WCS (Australia/China)?
I mean you can put it that way but the reality is that there is no way for an American to make enough money to play fulltime unless they already are popular or well known. You can be idealistic and say that the hardest workers always deserve the spots but then we will end up with a similar scene to BW where all the foreigners are just amateurs because there is not enough money for them to play full time. Is that ideal? Probably not. For example if Suppy wasn't able to play in major tournaments due to school, he probably wouldn't have had enough success that he would have taken a year off of college. These are the things that promote competition and escalate the level of play and make it possible for Americans to go full time. We don't have a LoL-esque system where players are paid to live in houses and play full time at the site of WCS. We have dozens of Americans who are good enough to take games off of B tier Koreans / A tier foreigners that need to be able to compete if we expect the scene to survive long-term.
On November 21 2013 08:27 s.a.y wrote: The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level.
Will this be a problem for WCS NA?
I think you'll have a lot of them leaving for GSL, but this is a great compromise. I'm sure some of the pros aren't going to be happy, but from a spectator point of view I think a lot of us who were pro-region lock will be pleased.
Yeah no they won't be. The only Koreans there that can compete in Code S are JD Taeja and Maybe Hero. That is the misconception everyone has about the Koreans coming over. It was never the best of the best. It was Code B and B teamers. Taeja and JD MIGHT go back but doubtful since they are still more likely to make more money in WCS NA.
On November 21 2013 13:54 Ansinjunger wrote: Well I had no idea South Korea was that close to Japan. I always thought it was bunched up with Laos and Vietnam.
facepalm World geography sure is a skill that needs to be better taught in school t.t
On November 21 2013 14:16 ForLethr wrote: Q. In light of the partial region lock for America and Europe, what happens to the existing Korean and European players in Premier and Challenger? The existing non-resident players in WCS America and WCS Europe Premier and Challenger leagues can stay in the region for 2014. Their status is guaranteed so long as they remain at the Premier/Challenger level. Once any players drop out, they must re-qualify through through the designated WCS 2014 Qualifier slots.
This means we will still see many Korean players in WCS EU and WCS AM. Things won't change a lot.
Pretty much the only change is playing a BO5 instead of 3-5 sets of BO3's. And once you're out you can't come back (unless you can win ladder wildcard). So by the volatility of winning a BO5 and the directional permeability of the WCS AM/EU, the number of Koreans will go down.
On November 21 2013 14:31 Zenbrez wrote: Blizz didn't do a very good job increasing the prizepool considering the removal of season finals. It's actually quite a lot less.
They didn't increase the prize pool, they kept the same total prize pool as 2013: $1.6 million. They redistributed the season final money into the regionals.
Changes look pretty smart. Glad to see they aren't afraid to structure individual regions differently based on their respective needs and opportunities.
The best thing about blizzard is that they give a shit about their game and about what people want.
Really, kudos to you Blizzard. Very few games nowadays are ever touched after release; Blizzard is one of the few companies that cares to put out and maintain a quality product.
This is an amazing series of changes. Blizzard really did well thinking up the solutions to the problems that were rampant this year. I just hope that the WCS Global partner events actually do get that boost in prize money, since a lot of money was taken off just by cutting out the regional finals tournaments.
On November 21 2013 14:06 TaishiCi wrote: This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
More to Korea and less to AM/EU is needed.
Lol get real man . . . anyone who retires from Korea because of this is already at the bottom of the barrel.
X3 prize pool relative to foreign regions is more than enough difference.
May I ask how you did your math?
Here is the breakdown (challenger + premier league): WCS 2014 prize pools per tournament (three seasons) America $140,600 (x3) Europe $140,600 (x3) Korea 177 million won (~$167,000) (x3) $250k Global Finals = $1.59 million total
WCS 2013 prize pools per tournament (three seasons) America $104,800 (x3) Europe $104,800 (x3) Korea 151-153 million won (~$138,000) (x3) $250k Global Finals $150k Season Finals (x3) = $1.743 million
GSL 2011-2012 + season 1 2013 Code S/A 172.8 million won (~$162,000) (5-7 tourneys per year) = ~$810k (2011), ~$1.134 million (2012) (Korea only)
As you can see, prize pools are actually somewhat less than 2013 overall for WCS. The $150k Season Finals pot was split up to add about $36k to each of the AM/EU pots and $30k to the Korean pot. This is about $48k less than the original $150k Season Finals pot, which accounts for the difference by year.
As for the OSL, I don't really see Ongamenet swallowing their pride and accepting their position as a second-tier tournament to the GSL, which is essentially what they would be doing with non-WCS status and a lower prize pot. The OSL has always been the most prestigious and storied Starleague in Korea, and there's too much bad blood between GOMTV and Ongamenet for me to foresee that happening.
Keep in mind too that from 2010 to most of 2012, the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea was comprised almost entirely of eSF players. KESPA, which didn't make the switch until the latter half of 2012, didn't start participating in the GSL until GSL season 4 of 2012.
Let's say, conservatively, that the KESPA infusion doubled the total number of SC2 progamers in Korea. If you're going from $1.134 million prize pool in 2012 to $414k in 2013 (actually closer to $1.2 mill to $576k if you factor in Auction All-Kill OSL 2012 and GSL Season 1 2013), it's clear you're going to have a problem. Double the players with less than half the prize pool for that region? Hmm.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
OGN essentially dropped SC2. That's pretty bad for starcraft. Now people can't watch sc2 by channel surfing. Koreans have to actively look for SC2 broadcasts to watch it. How will that help SC2 gain traction in Korea?
On November 21 2013 14:55 T.O.P. wrote: OGN essentially dropped SC2. That's pretty bad for starcraft. Now people can't watch sc2 by channel surfing. Koreans have to actively look for SC2 broadcasts to watch it. How will that help SC2 gain traction in Korea?
They stopped broadcasting it on tv after season 2, I didn't expect them to start again
On November 21 2013 14:06 TaishiCi wrote: This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
More to Korea and less to AM/EU is needed.
If the Korean SC2 is that weak and desperate for money Blizzard should stop wasting money on a dying scene.
Why haven't any organizations in Korea (GOM or OGN or whomever) made any weekend tournaments with open brackets like DH, MLG, IEM, NASL, IPL, etc? There is nothing stopping someone like GOM to run a weekend event with open brackets (or limited to pro-players/invitees) and offering a prize pool of $10,000 or $25,000 USD. Start crying to companies like GOM and OGN to run more events. You can't depend on Blizzard for everything. Even this past year we had events from MLG, DH, Asus ROG, and IEM that weren't Blizzard controlled and still coincided with WCS.
There is nothing stopping GOM or OGN, take it up with them stop blaming Blizzard for a scene that can barely support what they have already.
I have to agree with this. I want to support the best players in the world but if no one in Korea is watching and they'd rather play mobas (which is fine) I don't know what Blizzard are supposed to do about it other than what they already are.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
Yes. Otherwise it would not make sense to hold spots for TW/HK/Macau, SEA/Oceania, and China in WCS AM. Players from those countries are eligible for those allotted slots. Since Africa is included in EU, then you should also be allowed into the qualifiers without extra requirements.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
Yes. Otherwise it would not make sense to hold spots for TW/HK/Macau, SEA/Oceania, and China in WCS AM. Players from those countries are eligible for those allotted slots. Since Africa is included in EU, then you should also be allowed into the qualifiers without extra requirements.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
And since South Africa is considered a part of EU region for WCS 2014 and you are from South Africa... you should be fine.
Looks good to me! I was doubting they'd take these types of steps. Now let's see how much of an impact this will have. It's only the qualifiers that are being restricted based on region, so this is by no means a guarantee that Koreans won't remain in significant numbers and still take the tops spots.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
Yes. Otherwise it would not make sense to hold spots for TW/HK/Macau, SEA/Oceania, and China in WCS AM. Players from those countries are eligible for those allotted slots. Since Africa is included in EU, then you should also be allowed into the qualifiers without extra requirements.
I think so too, and I would definetly suggest that you try and contact somebody important over there to make sure you can participate. We need you representin!
Well done Blizzard!! Really listening to the comunity feedback, I think they may have found a really nice middle ground. This will be a much better WCS experience I believe.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
Africa is considered part of EU Region so you don't need a VISA into Europe to participate in qualifiers and stuff
Are you sure that's how it works? "If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier." To me, that seems like even if you are part of the "EU Region" you still need to fit one of those three criteria to be eligible. With the exception of the ladder wildcards, which are not subject to any of those conditions.
It is intended for you to be able to participate in the European qualifiers, along with anyone playing from other nations in Africa or the Middle East. Wild Card for Europe essentially means players from NA/SA/China/Taiwan/SEA/Oceania/Korea.
Not sure what Blizzard was smoking when they said Twitch did a remarkable performance. For me at least, the lag was ridiculously unbearable and more than once I decided to simply not watch WCS because of that. With youtube streams, that doesn't happen.
Mhm I really would have liked Suppy's suggestion which is to region lock all qualifiers but leave premier and challenger the same. This means more NA players in Challenger which forces the 'muricans to train harder and push the Koreans out while the good Koreans everyone wants to see are still there :D
I really like the partial region lock, GSL being back, and the simplification of the format a lot. I'm really looking forward to WCS '14 now and will probably start re-buying GSL subsciptions, Idk why but it makes me want to more.
i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
On November 21 2013 15:50 Schelim wrote: i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
One thing I don't understand however: is Korea included in "southeast asia" in the WCS AM slots or is it all about the ladder wild card if they wish to participate in WCS AM? Also, there is no chance outside ladder for Koreans to do WCS EU, as they only accept Europe/Africa/Middle East? I'm sorry if this is obvious or something. It doesn't feel like partial region locking, more like complete locking with small loopholes but that's a good thing.
I remember several Koreans saying that they would like the first prize to be bigger in the regional finals, last year. I wouldn't be sure that Gom was the only party in support of this prize distribution.
On November 21 2013 15:50 Schelim wrote: i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
On November 21 2013 15:50 Schelim wrote: i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
Not many tournaments will qualify for the highest tier.
That image got me wondering why if casters are optional for the smallest of three tournament sizes, why does it say "number of players on-site: 4+" ? That is, a $10k online tournament can't exactly have players "on site" It seems kind of pointless to dictate that, especially in the case of existing tournaments that might be affected.
Are these simply parameters if you want your tournament to be part of WCS? Is it just automatic as long as you meet the parameters?
From OP:
**Note that meeting the requirements listed above does not automatically grant you partner status -- we'd like to work with you directly to ensure your event fits well into the schedule and doesn't overlap other partner events.
I guess that answers half of my questions. It still seems a bit dangerous if there are an increasing number of WCS partners, which can lead too frankly too many WCS points being awarded outside of the WCS proper.
On November 21 2013 15:50 Schelim wrote: i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
On November 21 2013 15:50 Schelim wrote: i mostly like this but i'm kind of surprised at how many points the non-WCS major events produce. you get 2k points for winning a GSL/WCS, but you get 1.5k for winning a DH/MLG etc.? that feels really strange to me. as soon as you have a few major tournaments during one season of WCS, they are gonna outweigh the overall amount of points from the actual WCS events, especially now that there are no more season finals.a
Not many tournaments will qualify for the highest tier.
hmm, are you saying this cause of the prizepool requirement? cause i'm pretty sure all the major tournaments have all the other points listed.
Exactly because of the the prize pool requirement. Take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments In 2013 only three non-WCS tournaments had (2 in the past + DH Winter) $75k prize pool or higher: IEM Season VII World Championship, 2013 MLG Winter Championship, 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter. Assuming that MLG won't continue to organize SC2 tournaments any more or that their new tournaments will have lower prize pool, this leaves us with only 2 tournaments that can qualify for the highest tier. And one of those tournaments (DH Winter) takes place during WCS off-season.
sounds like good changes. I'm excited for gsl now and I haven't been for quite a while. Hopefully OGN can make some OSL happen too that would be amazing!
Everything taken together, I really like the changes. It makes me looking forward to 2014, which after this season I thought might not happen anymore. Making the Challenger games BO5 deathmatch is a cool way of making those games actually matter - I just hope they announce the dates for challenger games earlier so that opponents can prepare for each other - this always gives the best games!! This season sometimes they announced very very late.
Giving more space to the scene overall is good and I am curious whether or not hte RO32 premier will be live - if so then I think the changes are pretty much as good as it can get.
Woot !! Code "S" is back and its about time. The best of the best in one league as it should be, with the best production team to go with it. I am excited once more and cant wait for the new season to start
Please OGN, do not discontinue the OSL. I think OSL would still be a fantastic addition to the Korean scene, and I think it'd work great as a tier 1 WCS global event.
On November 21 2013 15:41 DinosaurPoop wrote: Mhm I really would have liked Suppy's suggestion which is to region lock all qualifiers but leave premier and challenger the same. This means more NA players in Challenger which forces the 'muricans to train harder and push the Koreans out while the good Koreans everyone wants to see are still there :D
Americans aren't going to knock Koreans out in Up and Downs though.
About 50-60 Koreans have already retired. Region lock = more Koreans retire. 3 GSL for 1 year = way more Koreans retire. So if a Korean did not qualify for GSL Season 1 he has to suck and do nothing for 2-3 months. SPL can give him some work but the reward for practicing and playing SPL for young players = almost nothing.
And I have to say, this looks really really good. Although it will always be 'see it then believe it' but I have a good feeling when I look at these formats and rules.
I think my favourite is the globel season finals going away. Even though they produced some good games something just didn't felt right with the (almost always) sudden discrediting of 3 champions. Which through the volatility of the SC2 scene was to be expected.
Second favourite is definitely more room for partner events.
I feel like a lot of people praising the changes don't really understand how it works fully and will change their mind once WCS actually gets started. WCS is going to look almost identical to this years. Not overlapping Challenger and Premier is definitely an obvious good change though, but the EU/AM up and down system is really bad, one BO5 to decide whether you go to premier or not...
On November 21 2013 18:02 HeisenZerg wrote: I think 2013 was a really good year of Starcraft II. It's only going to get better too. Proleague is right around the corner along with WCS 2014.
Gonna be good times, my friends
I do not think the year when about 10 icon players have retired can be called good...
I have just received news that the OSL has been discontinued. This is from a reliable Chinese source (s.163.com) which translated the corresponding OGN article.
On November 21 2013 18:06 dyDrawer wrote: I have just received news that the OSL has been discontinued. This is from a reliable Chinese source (s.163.com) which translated the corresponding OGN article.
Seeking confirmation from TL sources.
OMG nearly 15 years of history ended. This is truly the end of an era if true
With the OSL gone, the Korean scene now looks a little bit worrisome. There's nothing to fill the huge gaps between GSL seasons. Proleague and GSTL is not rewarding for new and upcoming players. There's also rumour that OGN will not broadcast this upcoming season of Proleague.
I like this !!!! and GSL is back ! 2014 is gonna be goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood ! :D
This might be trivial and not important to most of you but I like the fact that blizzard is recognizing africa/middle east as a region within WCS europe , while I dont believe that players from these regions will emerge into the WCS ( because we suck ) , the fact that blizzard is saying "hey ! work hard and you can play in this league" is definitely a step forward.....who knows what the future holds ?
I am sick and tired of companies claiming "global" e-sports when they just ditch regions like these , even if we are paying customers ! I'm still pissed off because RIOT refused to give WCG Jordan accounts and a tournament realm because and I quote " who gave you the impression that we support countries like Jordan ? " , League of legends is a global e-sport MY ASS ! biggest bullshit I ever heard , last I checked the middle east and africa are a part of the globe.
add to that , it actually adds some inspiration to the players , and a recognizable path to achieve their goals if they are serious enough about it.
So when Blizzard says that WCS is a global tournament , they actually mean it , BLIZZARD FTW !
Ahm... is there specified the system how the region locking system would work? I mean the qualification system itself. As I understand top16 from regional qualification has to meet those locking mechanism, but how can they make sure they will? Is this like - hey, I'm 22nd, but what the hell, I'm in because I'm the 1st qualified as a China player? (I find it pretty clear for EU - top16 has to have 12 from EU and the next 4 players can be from anywhere :>)
And do I understand this correctly, that Forgg or Polt(e.g.) can use the region place instead of ladder wildcard because they do not use visiting visas?(or do they? I don't know how visa thing works, TBH)
And last question - what is the status of mYinsanity players, doesn anyone know?
On November 21 2013 18:06 dyDrawer wrote: I have just received news that the OSL has been discontinued. This is from a reliable Chinese source (s.163.com) which translated the corresponding OGN article.
Seeking confirmation from TL sources.
oh god no :-/
Korea needs more tournaments, not less!
hope a miracle happens, i don't wanna see OSL go away
On November 21 2013 08:16 pmp10 wrote: Am I just blind or they didn't specify the qualifier format? All this talk of region-locking means little without knowing that bit.
You're not blind We're planning to share more details regarding Qualifiers next month.
On November 21 2013 08:18 xuanzue wrote: the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
How often do you think it should be rotated? Our current plan is to swap at least 2 new maps every season.
On November 21 2013 08:33 Yhamm wrote: with the reserved slots in WCS America, will they have to make different qualifiers for each region (SEA, China, Taiwan, America) ? Kinda like IEM ?
What are blizzard doing to avoid situations like last season when revival got invited to IEM NY without qualifying just to get a few free points? The whole situation with people getting invited seemigly arbitrarily when important points are on the line can hurt the communitys trust in the system. I want blizzard to make sure any tournament that gives out WCS points have to either only have qualifiers or be very transparant about the invitiation process.
On November 21 2013 19:02 Fjodorov wrote: What are blizzard doing to avoid situations like last season when revival got invited to IEM NY without qualifying just to get a few free points? The whole situation with people getting invited seemigly arbitrarily when important points are on the line can hurt the communitys trust in the system. I want blizzard to make sure any tournament that gives out WCS points have to either only have qualifiers or be very transparant about the invitiation process.
They said that players must advance at least once to gain points. (From ro32 to ro16)
On November 21 2013 08:18 xuanzue wrote: the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
How often do you think it should be rotated? Our current plan is to swap at least 2 new maps every season.
Two maps per season is pretty conservative, but I think that is needed in an individual league, where you really cannot afford to have imbalanced maps (or at least more than one per matchup which can be vetoed). For me, teamleagues are where you can test new maps more audaciously, maybe you can approach upcoming teamleagues, give them some candy and have them test new maps for you?
On November 21 2013 19:02 Fjodorov wrote: What are blizzard doing to avoid situations like last season when revival got invited to IEM NY without qualifying just to get a few free points? The whole situation with people getting invited seemigly arbitrarily when important points are on the line can hurt the communitys trust in the system. I want blizzard to make sure any tournament that gives out WCS points have to either only have qualifiers or be very transparant about the invitiation process.
They said that players must advance at least once to gain points. (From ro32 to ro16)
Ok ty for pointing that out. Its a good step. But the acutal invite to participate in the tournament, thus giving you a chance to get points, can still be problematic. I would like the non-blizzard tournaments to hand out fewer wcs points but keep their right to invite. Because lets face it, if you are a fan favorite and a big personality in the esport scene you are probably more likely to get an invite than someone just as good but not as well known/outspoken. That is fine but the amount of wcs points you can get this way shouldnt be so high.
Seems to me you had a divided audience on the region lock issue, but you've managed a solution that pleases all. Great success there. I particularly like the added emphasis to the ladder with the addition of "Ladder Wildcards". Several people were pointing on that direction in order to revive ladder and improve practice quality around the globe.
Cutting down on broadcast times, particularly if you're able to schedule matches well in advance, should raise viewership by making it easier to "save Wednsday afternoon for Starcraft". It should also enable more community-run tournaments, which is a win in my book. On that note, good idea with the Tier 3 tournaments; those seem specifically designed to funcion as "grassroots regional tournaments" with lower price pools and regional language streams.
The one question I have is the viability of Korea's scene. We all know that Korea has an inordinately high amount of progamers. They used to feed on the very high amount of GSLs. Last year, oversaturation (on only one GSL + 3 WCS Seasons) reached the point of making them play in other regions (which is positive in many ways, but still marks oversaturation), plus they fed on Season Finals price money. I'm hoping you're able to foster new tournaments in Korea (OSLs, or GSL-run weekend tournaments, or even newcomers) with particular care in order to keep as many Korean pros on the scene as possible.
On November 21 2013 08:18 xuanzue wrote: the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
How often do you think it should be rotated? Our current plan is to swap at least 2 new maps every season.
For 8 weeks event where 7 maps are used 2 new maps is very little, 3-4 would be good I think. OSL and MSL had 4 maps pool and changed 2-3 maps at least every season.
I think most of these changes are great! Really good job Blizzard, and thank you for listening to the perspectives of organisers, pros, fans and broadcasters!
Unfortunately, even with the increased prizepool for GSL, I doubt having merely three seasons a year will re-vitalise the Korean pro scene. From a foreigner perspective, it also won't attract the best players currently playing in WCS AM and EU back to the GSL. Unfortunately, the probability is that we will still have a GSL without Jaedong, Mvp, NesTea, TaeJa, MMA, MC etc. The only other tournaments apart from GSL in Korea are Proleague, and GSTL.
Premier league for WCS EU and AM won't be very different, since the same Koreans will still be a big part of it.
Now we need a secret comunity with all NA and EU pro gamers to share every bit of information about kr players that just come for 2-3 days then leave . beat them out of wcs and we will finaly have the wcs we all desired .
On November 21 2013 19:19 mikkmagro wrote: I think most of these changes are great! Really good job Blizzard, and thank you for listening to the perspectives of organisers, pros, fans and broadcasters!
Unfortunately, even with the increased prizepool for GSL, I doubt having merely three seasons a year will re-vitalise the Korean pro scene. From a foreigner perspective, it also won't attract the best players currently playing in WCS AM and EU back to the GSL. Unfortunately, the probability is that we will still have a GSL without Jaedong, Mvp, NesTea, TaeJa, MMA, MC etc. The only other tournaments apart from GSL in Korea are Proleague, and GSTL.
Premier league for WCS EU and AM won't be very different, since the same Koreans will still be a big part of it.
Yeah + OGN is about to not broadcast SPL which means a very big problem at korean scene
OGN [...] retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. [...] they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license [...]
OGN [...] retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. [...] they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license [...]
Which they will not, lol.
Yeah coz in the current state of SC2 in Korea Blizzard should ask OGN to run an event not vice versa.
Everything sounds really great except for one thing: Why in the world would you not give WCS to OGN? Before WCS Gom was running multiple code s per year, way more then three, by themselves, freely. OGN on the other hand literally had one star 2 starleague after the end of brood war and before wcs kicked in. I really can't see them magically holding multiple OSLs next year and I fear that this move might have removed starcraft 2 from korean television with the exception of proleague.
Again I really like the partial region lock, giving wcs korea to one partner (even though its the wrong one), changes to the format and qualifiers and price pool and even the partner events, great job blizz! However I fear kicking OGN off the train might have been a grave mistake, but maybe I'll be proven wrong (I surely hope so) and OGN will run multiple starleagues like Monte Christo said they would have done without wcs. Also since DH has a studio now I don't see why they shouldn't get WCS EU especially since 2012 WCS EU Finals was way way way way better than what ESL did this year, especially if you attended in person. But I guess thats just personal preference and ESL proofed that they are somewhat decent during blizzcon.
OGN [...] retain the right to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II content. [...] they could run a WCS Global Event if it meets the criteria laid out and they obtain a license [...]
Which they will not, lol.
Yeah coz in the current state of SC2 in Korea Blizzard should ask OGN to run an event not vice versa.
Well, they can freely run event without blizzard permission. They need permission if they wanna do wcs tournament.
My faith has been restored. I love how it looks and also that it shows Korea is just the better place. Overall great excellent points and it seems they thought about how they are going to do it. GREAT JOB Blizzard
On November 21 2013 08:18 xuanzue wrote: the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
How often do you think it should be rotated? Our current plan is to swap at least 2 new maps every season.
I think 2 per season with the 2 older maps in the pool would be great, but I think there should be an exception case where you could add 1 or 2 extra maps per season to replace really unpopular or really, really boring maps should they surface.
It would also be nice if you could make an exception tournament that has different maps, for the sake of testing and promoting new maps. Because honestly, if there aren't any WCS points being handed out it feels like no one would play a tournament with a very different map pool unless the prize pool was really big.
Back to the main topic I'm quite happy with most of the issues being addressed. More offseason is just what the scene needs to be able to hold more grassroots tournaments.
The partial region lock could mean more foreigners have a shot of making a splash and fleshing out the next gen of talent.
No more seasonal finals and the prizes form it integrated into the main WCS prize pool is also great.
The GSL finally feeling like its old self is also awesome, I just think they could have done a better job had the prize distribution been more in line with the previous iteration, like 50k for first 20k for 2nd and an even distribution after that, but that's their choice.
Apart from that the GSL always had this feel of the hardest and best tournament because of the level of the Korean competition, hopefully the prize pool coupled with the new partial region lock restrictions mean that more of the top end Koreans go back to Korea to compete. The GSL just felt empty in a way without Mvp, MMA, NesTea and MC.
My only lingering concerns left are for the Korean scene, 3 GSLs per year is way less then we had in the past, but the freed up timetable means they could maybe produce more content of their own that will still help the region. I also hope OGN makes 1 or 2 OSLs of their own.
Hmm. One thing I just noticed was that all WCS events are required to have the official map pool. Does that mean that all big tournaments in 2014, Dreamhack, IEM, Red Bull, etc., will have exactly the same map pool? :/
On November 21 2013 18:01 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people praising the changes don't really understand how it works fully and will change their mind once WCS actually gets started. WCS is going to look almost identical to this years. Not overlapping Challenger and Premier is definitely an obvious good change though, but the EU/AM up and down system is really bad, one BO5 to decide whether you go to premier or not...
there's no up and down anymore really, it's just 1 tournament now... chalenger = ro48 (kinda) and premier = ro32 ...
Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
On November 21 2013 20:58 figq wrote: Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
P.S. Excited for OGN doing Hearthstone. :D
The winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy who accidentally wins once? What does that even mean?
On November 21 2013 20:58 figq wrote: Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
P.S. Excited for OGN doing Hearthstone. :D
The winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy who accidentally wins once? What does that even mean?
I think he means: In sc2, we saw too many one-hit wonder (never seen before, won one tournament suddenly and then never seen again).
On November 21 2013 20:58 figq wrote: Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
P.S. Excited for OGN doing Hearthstone. :D
The winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy who accidentally wins once? What does that even mean?
I think he means: In sc2, we saw too many one-hit wonder (never seen before, won one tournament suddenly and then never seen again).
That's not the equivalent of the winner being some random guy who won by accident, though.
i dont really care about AM or EU, and im happy we can have bigger prize pool for Code S, but i just hate the new Code A format. hate it. and there is no more chance to comeback to Code S after falling in the ro 32 or ro16, its a shame they did it....
On November 21 2013 19:43 nstnct_ wrote: maybe ogn shifts to dota 2 after this. they already run a showmatch series.
Why are some people compelled to mention dota 2 in EVERY SINGLE SC2 THREAD. There was a thread about Jaedong becoming the highest earning player of all time and it immediately turned into a debate about how dota players COULD surpass him in the next couple of years. Seriously, stay in your own sub-forum if you can't stfu about dota this dota that when it has absolutely no relevance to the topic of the thread. Thanks.
On November 21 2013 20:09 Lorch wrote: Everything sounds really great except for one thing: Why in the world would you not give WCS to OGN? Before WCS Gom was running multiple code s per year, way more then three, by themselves, freely. OGN on the other hand literally had one star 2 starleague after the end of brood war and before wcs kicked in. I really can't see them magically holding multiple OSLs next year and I fear that this move might have removed starcraft 2 from korean television with the exception of proleague.
Again I really like the partial region lock, giving wcs korea to one partner (even though its the wrong one), changes to the format and qualifiers and price pool and even the partner events, great job blizz! However I fear kicking OGN off the train might have been a grave mistake, but maybe I'll be proven wrong (I surely hope so) and OGN will run multiple starleagues like Monte Christo said they would have done without wcs. Also since DH has a studio now I don't see why they shouldn't get WCS EU especially since 2012 WCS EU Finals was way way way way better than what ESL did this year, especially if you attended in person. But I guess thats just personal preference and ESL proofed that they are somewhat decent during blizzcon.
That would speak for the fact that GOM ran the GSL partially on blizzards money, of which there obviously is no definite proof nor counterproof.
On November 21 2013 20:58 figq wrote: Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
P.S. Excited for OGN doing Hearthstone. :D
The winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy who accidentally wins once? What does that even mean?
I think he means Jjakji and his friends (sniper, seed etc)
On November 21 2013 18:01 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people praising the changes don't really understand how it works fully and will change their mind once WCS actually gets started. WCS is going to look almost identical to this years. Not overlapping Challenger and Premier is definitely an obvious good change though, but the EU/AM up and down system is really bad, one BO5 to decide whether you go to premier or not...
there's no up and down anymore really, it's just 1 tournament now... chalenger = ro48 (kinda) and premier = ro32 ...
Sure but there is a reason why most tournaments start with group stage and not single bracket elimination... For me it's a bad idea to have your tournament life line depending on a single opponent (and single match up). Bad brackets have always been part of tournaments but they are usually a bit countered by double elimination or groups at least for the first rounds. A simple 4 player group format with top 2 qualifying does not seem too complicated and in my opinion looks healthier.
Don't really know how the regional semi-lock will come out but looks like a step in the right direction. Rest of the changes look really good !
I like the ideas, except the removal of the season finals. I liked a bit of an evaluation who REALLY is the best.. Oh well. Good idea. Still a bit lacking in the region lock department, but still, good changes across the board.
On November 21 2013 14:46 PandaTank wrote: Good changes over all. Although personally bad for me
You are fine, don't worry. Your are part Europe/Africa/Middle East and don't have to fight for the 4 wildcard slots! I'm sure you can grab one of the 12 spots for EU (even 18 for the first season)!.
Wow! All of this is great news! Blizzard has really listened to everyone and found the best solutions to the criticism, even when compromises had to be made! I'm really hyped for 2014 now
One aspect that I found really exciting, which hasn't been mentioned a lot in this thread yet, is all the potential for new partners to improve the scene. Some of the criticism against WCS 2013 was that it was too much and too closed down, essentially monopolizing SC2 broadcast time. With the WCS 2014 partner program, there is a lot of incentive for people to organize SC2 stuff, with the possibility of becoming an official WCS event and I especially like the entry-level grassroots tier. A very quick look at this year's Major Tournaments, shows that tournaments such as Ireland's n00bc0n and Hong Kong's 1st eSports Tournament could potentially have been WCS events in 2014 (with maybe very minor changes). The way I read the table, it's also possible for leagues to be WCS events. If so, then TeSL or a possible SC2 Dream(Hack)League could also be WCS events. This point is especially interesting in regards to Korea, I think, where we might perceive a sort of broadcast vacuum which is up for grabs for whoever decides to fill those days that are not GSL or GSTL. I have a feeling that GOM might try to grab that chance if OGN doesn't. GOM has shown that they are able to do interesting and fun stuff that is not just Code S/A GSL or GSTL, so they might have some cool side-tournament up their sleeve. Overall, I think we can look forward to many exciting announcements next year.
One thought that struck my mind: If I'm not mistaken, Japan is usually considered a part of East Asia, but the other East Asian countries are all accounted for in other ways. My guess is that Japan would be considered part of Southeast Asia for the purposes of qualifiers into WCS AM, but that point remains kind of ambiguous...
Reserving qualifier spots solves nothing, that was never the issue.Players will lose during the qualifer which this doesn't solve. There should be hundreds of slots anyway, how will they decide who gets the 16 slots?
On November 21 2013 23:07 iMAniaC wrote: Wow! All of this is great news! Blizzard has really listened to everyone and found the best solutions to the criticism, even when compromises had to be made! I'm really hyped for 2014 now
One aspect that I found really exciting, which hasn't been mentioned a lot in this thread yet, is all the potential for new partners to improve the scene. Some of the criticism against WCS 2013 was that it was too much and too closed down, essentially monopolizing SC2 broadcast time. With the WCS 2014 partner program, there is a lot of incentive for people to organize SC2 stuff, with the possibility of becoming an official WCS event and I especially like the entry-level grassroots tier. A very quick look at this year's Major Tournaments, shows that tournaments such as Ireland's n00bc0n and Hong Kong's 1st eSports Tournament could potentially have been WCS events in 2014 (with maybe very minor changes). The way I read the table, it's also possible for leagues to be WCS events. If so, then TeSL or a possible SC2 Dream(Hack)League could also be WCS events. This point is especially interesting in regards to Korea, I think, where we might perceive a sort of broadcast vacuum which is up for grabs for whoever decides to fill those days that are not GSL or GSTL. I have a feeling that GOM might try to grab that chance if OGN doesn't. GOM has shown that they are able to do interesting and fun stuff that is not just Code S/A GSL or GSTL, so they might have some cool side-tournament up their sleeve. Overall, I think we can look forward to many exciting announcements next year.
One thought that struck my mind: If I'm not mistaken, Japan is usually considered a part of East Asia, but the other East Asian countries are all accounted for in other ways. My guess is that Japan would be considered part of Southeast Asia for the purposes of qualifiers into WCS AM, but that point remains kind of ambiguous...
On November 21 2013 08:18 xuanzue wrote: the only thing that bothers me, is the map pool, blizzard is very slow rotating it, and it makes the metagame boring and stagnating in the long term IMO
How often do you think it should be rotated? Our current plan is to swap at least 2 new maps every season.
I think you should change 3 or 4 maps per season. if you change only 2 maps, it means few maps will be in WCS for a full year which I think is really too long. Changing 3-4 maps will add more diversity and would also help the mappers community (if you still add their maps to the ladder roster?) I think you should also allow the WCS Global Events to use 1 or 2 maps that are not on the ladder, it would help to see new maps.
It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
On November 21 2013 08:28 KingLeonardo wrote: Difference between 1st and 2nd place prize at GSL Code S is unbelievable. This should be changed otherwise the players in the final will make a deal before the games are even played. That's not what we want, right?
On November 21 2013 08:21 NovaMB wrote: 70.000.000 Won is roughly 66.000 dollars. Pretty damn good pricepool. I feel a bit sad that OGN is gone, I really enjoyed listening to Doa and Montecristo.
The ladder spots are open to everyone on the planet I assume?
I had to go check, but HOLY SHIT that is a huge increase! Now Korea really will be the premier region.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
If you look closely, the korean price pool hasn't been raised by a lot... Though the winner gets a lot more, than in the other two regions, the total price pool is only ~150k $, compared to 131k $ for europe and america.
On November 21 2013 23:41 Noizhende wrote: I hate really hate, that they are removing the season finals. Those were the interesting parts of the 2013 wcs.
I agree, enjoyed them a lot. Seems like we were in the minority though for some reason :S
On November 21 2013 23:41 Noizhende wrote: I hate really hate, that they are removing the season finals. Those were the interesting parts of the 2013 wcs.
I agree, enjoyed them a lot. Seems like we were in the minority though for some reason :S
I don't think they were very fair in terms of WCS points. It's really unfortunate there isn't anything similar to replace them though.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
If you look closely, the korean price pool hasn't been raised by a lot... Though the winner gets a lot more, than in the other two regions, the total price pool is only ~150k $, compared to 131k $ for europe and america.
That was a request by GOM for some reason I will never understand. Blizzard had control over the amount of money, and they gave KR more, what GOM decided to do with that amount is up to them.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
To me it makes sense. They want people from other regions to be at blizzcon. If they made it considerably higher wcs points for winning in Korea there would be little if no chance for other regions to participate in Blizzcon. I think this is really smart and the prize money is definitely making up for any extra points you would get.
Seriously just as a general statement about this Blizzard not only listened to the community but also followed through with it. Its a good day for eSports and I think this one deserves a standing ovation! GJ BLIZZ KEEP IT UP!!!
On November 21 2013 23:41 Noizhende wrote: I hate really hate, that they are removing the season finals. Those were the interesting parts of the 2013 wcs.
I agree, enjoyed them a lot. Seems like we were in the minority though for some reason :S
I don't think they were very fair in terms of WCS points. It's really unfortunate there isn't anything similar to replace them though.
The WCS points were an issue, yes, it's just sad, because the tournaments were awesome, but maybe Dreamhacks and IEMs can compensate for them.
The hype train gets a nice upgrade, I really like these changes.
For some reason, I love keeping the Code A and Code S names too. It's ok for Blizz to be the new big guy on the block, but the nod to the roots warms my heart.
On November 22 2013 00:21 Heartland wrote: I didn't quite get if there will still be one finals at the end of 2014, or if that's gone with the season finals too?
Yes, Global Finals (hopefully at BlizzCon) will remain unchanged it seems.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points.
Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the best league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there.
Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts?
Unless OGN runs OSL multiple times, Koreans in the Korean region will be screwed in terms of points. Without the season finals, players competing in the GSL will have a hard time getting enough points to go to the global finals. WCS pretty much becomes a race to see which players can pad their points the most in non-WCS tournaments.
Well it seems improved, kinda confusing. GSL being back is cool, i like how they offer more prize money in it to provide an incentive for players in korea to stay there.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points.
Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the ebst league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there.
Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts?
The most known foreigners are basically at every community tournament, where the best koreans mostly stay at home. GSL Code S should at least have 1,5 - 2 times more points in store for the players than the other two imo. Also i dont get the money destribution. Shouldnt have GOM tried to get more from Blizz? (edit: i mean the sum, not the 1st gets all thing)
On November 22 2013 00:59 andrewlt wrote: Unless OGN runs OSL multiple times, Koreans in the Korean region will be screwed in terms of points. Without the season finals, players competing in the GSL will have a hard time getting enough points to go to the global finals. WCS pretty much becomes a race to see which players can pad their points the most in non-WCS tournaments.
Koreans can attend WCS Partner tournaments too. In fact, a lot of Koreans travel now. Though I do hope that the amount of non-WCS tournaments actually go down a bit. There's way too much weekend tournaments, causing nothing but fatigue and stress for the players. Take a look at this post Blizzcon era. We had Homestory Cup, then Red Bull, then Dreamhack, then IEM. And there's probably a bit more that I'm missing too.
I personally think 2014 is going to be a Pinnacle year one to remember as the changes that are being made are Worlds ahead 2013 system. I think the damage that was done to Korea in 2013 will not 100% recoop but I think this is a HUGE step in the right direction.
I strongly believe OGN will host their own set of tournaments especially with the Blizzard partner incentive program its now easier for other events to exist and help grow the scene
While I don't htink this will fix the NA and EU scene as of now I also think Semi-Region lock as it was well discussed is a Giant step in the right direction as well
One thing that has been overlooked so far is that even though the GSL does not get a higher prize money, due to the semi region lock, the season finals will have less Koreans and the ones qualifying through Korea will have a guaranteed prize money coming in.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points.
Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the best league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there.
Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts?
Understandable, but think about it. Region lock the way they did it is fine and dandy, but there's two much easier and natural ways of doing it:
1. Offer more money at all levels in Korea 2. Offer higher chance of making it to the Global Finals
They tried doing 1, but failed at it because they're giving it all to first place. I could have gotten my conversion rates wrong, but looks like every spot other than first makes LESS money in Korea than they do in EU and AM, so from there, there is almost no incentive for koreans currently in AM and EU to leave and go back to korea to revive the scene with more competition, and expand the foreigner field in AM and EU
As far as 2 goes, same thing. You think that equal points will help foreigners, but it won't, it'll keep koreans in AM and EU, cuz at the end of the day, unless you're winning the whole thing, you're gonna get the same amoutn of points and more money in FAR FAR easier regions... IMO even more koreans should jump ship and head to AM and EU now, and that's what I would suggest if I was their managers.
Blizzard tried, but at the end of the day, by not giving more points to KR (their fault) and the stupid prize distribution (GOM's fault), they have failed at trying to do what they set out to do. And as far as the events outside of WCS, that's a moot point really, as only privileged koreans can manage to go and would've gone anyway regardless of these changes.
Killing this region debate was actually an easy 3 step process:
1. Offer significant more money to Koreans from top to bottom as financial incentive for Koreans to compete back home. They have failed at this. The top level Koreans capable of winning the giant first place prize were already competing in WCS Korea. The mid/lower end koreans have no financial incentive to go play in a harder tournament to make less money. They have failed completely in this task.
2. Offer somewhat larger chances of making it to Global Finals by increasing the point pool. Doesn't have to be massive, but give incentive again for lower/mid tier koreans to compete back home by giving more points out to good performances in the hardest tournament in the world. They did nothing to mitigate this, and failed completely. There is no point incentive to go back home.
3. Host more tournaments for Koreans in Korea. This is up to third parties GOM, OGN, etc... GSL is now reduced to 3 a year instead of the old 5, and OSL is gone completely. No other tournaments announced. This is by far a worst case scenario.
So the way I see it, how have they improved anything? The Korean scene is still f*cked with no way to help it improve coming in 2014. This soft region lock does little to help with the Korean invasion, as they still have some spots to sneak in from, and it'll be very hard to eliminate the current Korean population from those two tournaments (don't get me wrong though, this is good if blizz and GOM are gonna do jack sh*t about the points and prize distribution). The only improvements I see are (hopefully) better non-WCS events feeding into the WCS system, and the scheduling.
Overall, 2014 is going to be a bad year for Starcraft in Korea unless something huge gets announced (more tournaments from third parties there, GOM hosting more than just the WCS GSLs, OGN making miraculous OSL comeback, etc...) I really would love to hear from blizz a response to this since kimaphan is lurknig in this thread, but I won't hold my breath lol
PS: For the record, I'm not blaming this all on Blizzard. It's partially on them, partially on GOM, partially on OSL and partially on the non-existant third parties holding tournaments lol
On November 21 2013 07:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: OGN has rights to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II tournaments alongside WCS and will be able to run WCS global events that offer WCS points.
StarCraft means BW? So, old bw tournaments can revive?
On November 21 2013 14:06 TaishiCi wrote: This isn't enough for Korea still... Here comes a flood of retirees... Korea will hold, but no more growth and slow decay will happen through the seasons. Prepare to say goodbye to many of the long time favorites and rising talent.
More to Korea and less to AM/EU is needed.
Actually you are wrong. Regarding Korea, this if the best thing Blizzard could have done. It is now up to other tournaments to make use of the freed up schedule to host more StarCraft tournaments in Korea.
Seriously, do you think Blizzard should be responsible for setting up tons of tournaments and prize pools just to cater to one small country? As much as I like Korea, that makes no sense.
And as to the prize pool in GSL, Mr. Chae has control over this and probably decided that's how he wanted it done, so don't blame Blizzard over that.
We should be happy that GSL us back and hope for another Korean tournament to fill in the gaps.
Someone who has all the data in a spreadsheet should calculate who would have qualified for Blizzcon this year if the three Season Finals didn't exist. I suspect the 16 players will be weaker than what we have now :/.
If the system does not take care of the non EU / US players that are already in premier it will accomplish nothing.Expect to see viewer numbers shrinking further.
"I'M TASTELESS AND HE'S ARTOSIS AND WE'RE TASTOSIS COMING TO YOU LLIIIIVVVEE FROM THE GOMTV STUDIO IN SEOUL, KOREA TO WATCH THE GREATEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD PLAY THE GREATEST E-SPORT IN THE WORLD...STARCRAFT 2!!!!"
"we got some downtime here artosis...talk to me man what you been up to? how's your kid?"
On November 22 2013 02:31 Gr33d wrote: If the system does not take care of the non EU / US players that are already in premier it will accomplish nothing.Expect to see viewer numbers shrinking further.
I disagree with this. As long as they put forth a good production for the challenger matches, then I feel those will be really well viewed.
On November 21 2013 07:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: OGN has rights to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II tournaments alongside WCS and will be able to run WCS global events that offer WCS points.
StarCraft means BW? So, old bw tournaments can revive?
Fingers crossed?
Maybe they have seen how successful the ex-BW pros streaming on Afreeca and Sonic Starleague are and see that there is still a demand for BW.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it.
It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile.
I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero.
On November 21 2013 08:28 KingLeonardo wrote: Difference between 1st and 2nd place prize at GSL Code S is unbelievable. This should be changed otherwise the players in the final will make a deal before the games are even played. That's not what we want, right?
On November 22 2013 00:59 andrewlt wrote: Unless OGN runs OSL multiple times, Koreans in the Korean region will be screwed in terms of points. Without the season finals, players competing in the GSL will have a hard time getting enough points to go to the global finals. WCS pretty much becomes a race to see which players can pad their points the most in non-WCS tournaments.
Koreans can attend WCS Partner tournaments too. In fact, a lot of Koreans travel now. Though I do hope that the amount of non-WCS tournaments actually go down a bit. There's way too much weekend tournaments, causing nothing but fatigue and stress for the players. Take a look at this post Blizzcon era. We had Homestory Cup, then Red Bull, then Dreamhack, then IEM. And there's probably a bit more that I'm missing too.
Those are mainly the Koreans on foreign teams, which aren't necessarily the strongest Koreans. The top Koreans in Proleague/GSTL don't attend many foreign tournaments. Unless OGN runs multiple OSL tournaments, players such as Dear, Bomber, Maru, SoS and Soulkey would have a very hard time reaching the global finals. Obviously, players like Taeja, Hero, Jaedong, Hyun and now Innovation will still be there on many of the foreign tournaments. The season and global finals this year demonstrated that the Koreans who have the most foreign exposure aren't necessarily the best and most deserving.
At the same time Blizzard is doing a region lock, they will pretty much force the Kespa/ESF Koreans to attend as many foreign DHs and IEMs and all sorts of tournaments as possible. We might end up having the reverse of today's scene, with regards to the player pool of WCS Americas and Europe versus the DHs and IEMs of the world.
As someone who watches almost excusively the GSL-part of WCS, this is very pleasing news.
I would have liked more seasons though. If you only follow one part of the tournament regularly, three seasons can be a bit low. Still, overall good news.
On November 22 2013 02:31 Gr33d wrote: If the system does not take care of the non EU / US players that are already in premier it will accomplish nothing.Expect to see viewer numbers shrinking further.
What do you mean 'take care'? They can't just randomly kick players from their deserved spots.
On November 21 2013 17:37 dyDrawer wrote: Please OGN, do not discontinue the OSL. I think OSL would still be a fantastic addition to the Korean scene, and I think it'd work great as a tier 1 WCS global event.
with exception of wcs finals and the dota invitational, the last 4 month of ogn have been LoL 24/7.
Finally, Blizzard gives GSL the prestige it deserves. GomTV introduced SC2 to Korea and have always prioritized foreign viewers just as much as their Korean audience. Now that Blizzard has put it's weight behind GomTV, I still have questions as to whether there will be some sort of KeSPA backlash.
I don't understand the positive reception of the changes. Fewer tournaments and WCS US stays completely dominated by foreign team based Koreans. The problems that the US scene experienced in 2013 continues unchanged.
I find it hard to stomach that the same teams who undercut the US scene in 2013, by diminishing opportunities for American players, now have the further advantage of having their Korean players being "safe" in WCS US while new Korean players have a much tougher time entering the tournament. I don't quite understand why Blizzard has chosen to fellate EG, TL, Quantic & Axiom in this manner.
Furthermore, why is it that the foreign scene continues to pay the upkeep for Korea to keep a pro SC2 scene as if we were still in the 2000s when starcraft was a national sport? It clearly no longer is and the current amount of Korean pros is unsustainable. The solution seems to be to transfer money from the western scene and to the Korean scene. The obvious consequence of which will be the continued unreachable advantage of the Korean scene (which has at least as many pro players as does the world outside of Korea all together) and diminishing opportunities for foreign based players.
Once again with regards to SC2, Blizzard, you fail to take bold but necessary steps to ensure the best possible future.
On November 21 2013 23:41 Noizhende wrote: I hate really hate, that they are removing the season finals. Those were the interesting parts of the 2013 wcs.
I agree, enjoyed them a lot. Seems like we were in the minority though for some reason :S
I don't think they were very fair in terms of WCS points. It's really unfortunate there isn't anything similar to replace them though.
i also enjoyed watching them but i very much agree that they were not fair in terms of points. i wish they'd just keep them as they are but not have them give any WCS points at all. just treat them as a way for the players that did well at their WCS regional events to gain some extra money and exposure.
On November 22 2013 03:56 m0ck wrote: I don't understand the positive reception of the changes. Fewer tournaments and WCS US stays completely dominated by foreign team based Koreans. The problems that the US scene experienced in 2013 continues unchanged.
I find it hard to stomach that the same teams who undercut the US scene in 2013, by diminishing opportunities for American players, now have the further advantage of having their Korean players being "safe" in WCS US while new Korean players have a much tougher time entering the tournament. I don't quite understand why Blizzard has chosen to fellate EG, TL, Quantic & Axiom in this manner.
Furthermore, why is it that the foreign scene continues to pay the upkeep for Korea to keep a pro SC2 scene as if we were still in the 2000s when starcraft was a national sport? It clearly no longer is and the current amount of Korean pros is unsustainable. The solution seems to be to transfer money from the western scene and to the Korean scene. The obvious consequence of which will be the continued unreachable advantage of the Korean scene (which has at least as many pro players as does the world outside of Korea all together) and diminishing opportunities for foreign based players.
Once again with regards to SC2, Blizzard, you fail to take bold but necessary steps to ensure the best possible future.
it's WCS AM, not WCS US. you calling it that strongly implies that you're a very patriotic US-American, considering you're excluding a lot of countries that are supposed to be included in this WCS region, and some of which have a stronger playerpool than the US itself.
regarding your post itself, i think it's mostly because nobody outside of NA gives a shit about the NA scene. we don't even know the scene at all because most of the players are too bad to get noticed (aside from a few) and there is virtually no representation of the scene in terms of tournaments. in the meantime, Koreans are much better than everybody else and therefore people like watching them. giving NA players a free pass into WCS Premier league (or even worse, Blizzcon) is not a way of fixing that, in fact it would only be unfair and ridiculous. the players need to become better, and for that there has to be an interest and a certain motivation to improve. alternatively, if the NA scene cannot motivate itself and Blizzard doesn't care to do it, NA players will continue to fade out of the scene until they're completely gone, like in war3.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it.
It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile.
I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero.
Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
On November 22 2013 04:37 Zealously wrote: Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
really? when did i say Blizzard would stop supporting SC2? i've never made that comment.
the over all prize money went down as i predicted. and it will continue to fall in 2014.
of course, you can interpret that to "Blizzard will stop supporting SC2" if you like.
many have already commented (in this thread) on the fact that prize money and tournament quantity fell in 2013 and will continue to decline in 2014. again, as i predicted.
i don't get all my predictions correct though ... I said the Jays would win 76 games this year.
Over all, I'm happy with the level of support Blizzard offers for SC2.
But, I can see things clearly and can see that Blizzard's support level for SC2 is falling.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it.
It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile.
I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero.
Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
Your right, jimmy is that guy. But don't try an prove him wrong, his grasps of facts and reality is questionable at best. He is legend in the worst way possible.
On November 21 2013 07:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: OGN has rights to run both StarCraft and StarCraft II tournaments alongside WCS and will be able to run WCS global events that offer WCS points.
StarCraft means BW? So, old bw tournaments can revive?
Fingers crossed?
Maybe they have seen how successful the ex-BW pros streaming on Afreeca and Sonic Starleague are and see that there is still a demand for BW.
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it.
It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile.
I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero.
Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
Your right, jimmy is that guy. But don't try an prove him wrong, his grasps of facts and reality is questionable at best. He is legend in the worst way possible.
i've never said BLizzard would stop supporting SC2. his post is incorrect.
On November 22 2013 03:56 m0ck wrote: I don't understand the positive reception of the changes. Fewer tournaments and WCS US stays completely dominated by foreign team based Koreans. The problems that the US scene experienced in 2013 continues unchanged.
I find it hard to stomach that the same teams who undercut the US scene in 2013, by diminishing opportunities for American players, now have the further advantage of having their Korean players being "safe" in WCS US while new Korean players have a much tougher time entering the tournament. I don't quite understand why Blizzard has chosen to fellate EG, TL, Quantic & Axiom in this manner.
Furthermore, why is it that the foreign scene continues to pay the upkeep for Korea to keep a pro SC2 scene as if we were still in the 2000s when starcraft was a national sport? It clearly no longer is and the current amount of Korean pros is unsustainable. The solution seems to be to transfer money from the western scene and to the Korean scene. The obvious consequence of which will be the continued unreachable advantage of the Korean scene (which has at least as many pro players as does the world outside of Korea all together) and diminishing opportunities for foreign based players.
Once again with regards to SC2, Blizzard, you fail to take bold but necessary steps to ensure the best possible future.
i'm happy with this WCS 2014 announcement because Blizzard offers 1000X better support than any other company offers any other RTS game.
EA just cancelled a new C&C game after 2.5 years of development. CoH2 units take 3 seconds to respond to your commands and Creative Assembly lied about the features that would be in Rome2.
Relative to the amount of cash SC2 generates for Blizz we're pretty fortunate to have this level of support.
Financially speaking, Starcraft is Blizzard's #3 money maker in a company that only has 3 games.
On November 22 2013 02:26 ZAiNs wrote: Someone who has all the data in a spreadsheet should calculate who would have qualified for Blizzcon this year if the three Season Finals didn't exist. I suspect the 16 players will be weaker than what we have now :/.
Interesting idea, so I did just that. Here's the top 16 players of 2013 without the WCS season finals points:
Place Name Original New -------------------------------------------- 1. Polt 5625 4375 2. HerO 4950 3450 3. Jaedong 5650 3150 4. MMA 4350 2850 5. Soulkey 6250 2750 6. TaeJa 4250 2750 7. INnoVation 6100 2600 8. MC 4275 2525 9. Revival 3200 2450 10. Maru 4675 2425 11. HyuN 2400 2400 NEW CHALLENGER 12. NaNiwa 3200 2200 13. Mvp 3600 2100 14. duckdeok 3550 2050 15. Life 1925 1925 NEW CHALLENGER 16. sOs 3850 1850 16. Oz 2850 1850 NEW CHALLENGER
Only three players would have been switched out, with HyuN, Life and Oz getting in, while Dear, aLive and Bomber would be thrown out. Notably, Dear and Bomber are both season finals winners. And sOs and Oz would have to fight for the 16th spot.
On November 22 2013 04:37 Zealously wrote: Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
really? when did i say Blizzard would stop supporting SC2? i've never made that comment.
the over all prize money went down as i predicted. and it will continue to fall in 2014.
of course, you can interpret that to "Blizzard will stop supporting SC2" if you like.
many have already commented (in this thread) on the fact that prize money and tournament quantity fell in 2013 and will continue to decline in 2014. again, as i predicted.
i don't get all my predictions correct though ... I said the Jays would win 76 games this year.
Over all, I'm happy with the level of support Blizzard offers for SC2.
But, I can see things clearly and can see that Blizzard's support level for SC2 is falling.
You're right, it wasn't a comment - it was a whole blog. Full of factual errors and hasty conclusions, which seems to be a theme of yours.
On November 22 2013 04:37 Zealously wrote: Aren't you the guy who was all about how Blizzard was going to stop supporting sc2 right before WCS 2013 was announced? You were wrong then, I imagine you'll be wrong now as well. We don't have all details yet, let's wait for them.
really? when did i say Blizzard would stop supporting SC2? i've never made that comment.
the over all prize money went down as i predicted. and it will continue to fall in 2014.
of course, you can interpret that to "Blizzard will stop supporting SC2" if you like.
many have already commented (in this thread) on the fact that prize money and tournament quantity fell in 2013 and will continue to decline in 2014. again, as i predicted.
i don't get all my predictions correct though ... I said the Jays would win 76 games this year.
Over all, I'm happy with the level of support Blizzard offers for SC2.
But, I can see things clearly and can see that Blizzard's support level for SC2 is falling.
You're right, it wasn't a comment - it was a whole blog. Full of factual errors and hasty conclusions, which seems to be a theme of yours.
Also predicting things that are super vague: there will be more/less money/events in 2013. Then he can just cheery paick "evidence" until he is right.
Much as I like the new partial region lock with wild cards and pre-qualifying events coming up, I don't like the fact that Koreans and Europeans in Premier/Challenger league outside their region can continue to camp there happily without putting in any effort in the ladder in EU / AM. That was a big part of the problem, wasn't it? In my opinion you should have to put in an effort to keep your spot in Premier / Challenger as well between the seasons. Extend the 200 wins on the ladder requirement for all players: qualifiers, challenger league and premier league players alike. And no barcode!
On November 21 2013 10:15 pretensile wrote: There is some rampant PR gimmickry and fudged numbers at work here, which won't be obvious to anyone who doesn't investigate more deeply.
The biggest PR move is the claim that the prize pool for WCS Korea is greater than ever. Yet let us look back on GSLs of the past and compare:
For GSL Season 1 of 2013, the combined prize pool for Code S/A was 172.8 million won.
For WCS Season 1/3 of 2013, the combined prize pool was around 151 million won.
For every season of GSL after the first year (2011-2012), the combined prize pool has been 172.8 million won.
In the first year of the GSL (GSL open season 1-3 of 2010), the prize pool was nearly 200 million won for each of the three tourneys.
For 2014, each of the three GSLs will feature an "expanded" prize pool of 177 million won. So yes, technically WCS Korea now features a whopping 4.2 million won ($4,000 USD) over previous Code S/A seasons, or 26 million won ($24,600) over past WCS seasons.
However -- 1) There are no longer any season finals for Koreans to compete in. 2) The very existence of OSL, and possibly even Proleague, may be in jeopardy. 3) Koreans are now technically region-locked out of other regions. 4) Three entire tourneys for the whole region is a drastic step down since the very first year of the GSL (new game, and also compensated a bit with the largest prize pools). 2011 had a grand total of seven GSLs and one super tourney. 2012 had five GSLs and one OSL. 2013 had one GSL and three WCS Koreas (two GSL, one OSL).
Anyone looking at these facts can easily see that, barring an explosion of foreigner events in 2014 (which only the most privileged Korean progamers can attend anyway), the opportunities and total prize pool for Korean gamers are actually reduced in the coming year. The only thing that's changed is that GSL is pretty much the only game in town now, and has reverted to its previous prize pool (only $4k more than previous GSLs), but far more heavily weighted at the top for the sake of appearances and publicity (70 million won for first place compared to 50 million won in the past).
If Ongamenet decided to throw a bunch of OSLs and Proleague seasons, this would change the picture dramatically, but why would they? They have their hands full with a very successful League of their own (they filled out stadiums just with the opening day of this season of Champions) and have no incentive now that they are no longer a WCS partner.
I see the light now. This man has shown me the truth of Blizzards lies. Going to burn all my hearthstone cards right after I finish uninstalling Lost Viking.
Sarcasm just lowers the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Blizzard is not lying. They are packaging the truth of a smaller 2014 SC2 prize pool in a very nice way. This will anger people who can see past it.
It sucks that Blizzard is slowly lowering the prize money, however, SC2 is still the best supported RTS game by a country fucking mile.
I hope the partial region lock thingie allows the creation of "local heroes" although i hardly would call some new SC2 pro from Vancouver making it big as my "local" hero.
after blizzard explicitly stating why they reduced the number of tournament seasons in a year (and hence the resulting overall prize pool is somewhat reduced compared to past years) which is to give third-party tournament organizers chances to flourish, you still have people who would just rather find some ulterior motive behind their decisions. contrast this to how some people, on the other hand, were complaining that blizzard is ruining the scene by aiming to control everything in it. this will annoy people who can see this happening :/
On November 21 2013 23:07 iMAniaC wrote: Wow! All of this is great news! Blizzard has really listened to everyone and found the best solutions to the criticism, even when compromises had to be made! I'm really hyped for 2014 now
One aspect that I found really exciting, which hasn't been mentioned a lot in this thread yet, is all the potential for new partners to improve the scene. Some of the criticism against WCS 2013 was that it was too much and too closed down, essentially monopolizing SC2 broadcast time. With the WCS 2014 partner program, there is a lot of incentive for people to organize SC2 stuff, with the possibility of becoming an official WCS event and I especially like the entry-level grassroots tier. A very quick look at this year's Major Tournaments, shows that tournaments such as Ireland's n00bc0n and Hong Kong's 1st eSports Tournament could potentially have been WCS events in 2014 (with maybe very minor changes). The way I read the table, it's also possible for leagues to be WCS events. If so, then TeSL or a possible SC2 Dream(Hack)League could also be WCS events. This point is especially interesting in regards to Korea, I think, where we might perceive a sort of broadcast vacuum which is up for grabs for whoever decides to fill those days that are not GSL or GSTL. I have a feeling that GOM might try to grab that chance if OGN doesn't. GOM has shown that they are able to do interesting and fun stuff that is not just Code S/A GSL or GSTL, so they might have some cool side-tournament up their sleeve. Overall, I think we can look forward to many exciting announcements next year.
One thought that struck my mind: If I'm not mistaken, Japan is usually considered a part of East Asia, but the other East Asian countries are all accounted for in other ways. My guess is that Japan would be considered part of Southeast Asia for the purposes of qualifiers into WCS AM, but that point remains kind of ambiguous...
That event is indefinitely postponed.
Hmm. I knew it was postponed, but not indefinitely. Oh well. The point still stands, though. There may be an increased incentive to making such kind of events, as they may qualify as WCS events.
On November 22 2013 02:09 ffadicted wrote: [First part of post]+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points.
Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the best league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there.
Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts?
Understandable, but think about it. Region lock the way they did it is fine and dandy, but there's two much easier and natural ways of doing it:
1. Offer more money at all levels in Korea 2. Offer higher chance of making it to the Global Finals
They tried doing 1, but failed at it because they're giving it all to first place. I could have gotten my conversion rates wrong, but looks like every spot other than first makes LESS money in Korea than they do in EU and AM, so from there, there is almost no incentive for koreans currently in AM and EU to leave and go back to korea to revive the scene with more competition, and expand the foreigner field in AM and EU
As far as 2 goes, same thing. You think that equal points will help foreigners, but it won't, it'll keep koreans in AM and EU, cuz at the end of the day, unless you're winning the whole thing, you're gonna get the same amoutn of points and more money in FAR FAR easier regions... IMO even more koreans should jump ship and head to AM and EU now, and that's what I would suggest if I was their managers.
Blizzard tried, but at the end of the day, by not giving more points to KR (their fault) and the stupid prize distribution (GOM's fault), they have failed at trying to do what they set out to do. And as far as the events outside of WCS, that's a moot point really, as only privileged koreans can manage to go and would've gone anyway regardless of these changes.
Killing this region debate was actually an easy 3 step process:
1. Offer significant more money to Koreans from top to bottom as financial incentive for Koreans to compete back home. They have failed at this. The top level Koreans capable of winning the giant first place prize were already competing in WCS Korea. The mid/lower end koreans have no financial incentive to go play in a harder tournament to make less money. They have failed completely in this task.
2. Offer somewhat larger chances of making it to Global Finals by increasing the point pool. Doesn't have to be massive, but give incentive again for lower/mid tier koreans to compete back home by giving more points out to good performances in the hardest tournament in the world. They did nothing to mitigate this, and failed completely. There is no point incentive to go back home.
3. Host more tournaments for Koreans in Korea. This is up to third parties GOM, OGN, etc... GSL is now reduced to 3 a year instead of the old 5, and OSL is gone completely. No other tournaments announced. This is by far a worst case scenario.
So the way I see it, how have they improved anything? The Korean scene is still f*cked with no way to help it improve coming in 2014. This soft region lock does little to help with the Korean invasion, as they still have some spots to sneak in from, and it'll be very hard to eliminate the current Korean population from those two tournaments (don't get me wrong though, this is good if blizz and GOM are gonna do jack sh*t about the points and prize distribution). The only improvements I see are (hopefully) better non-WCS events feeding into the WCS system, and the scheduling.
Overall, 2014 is going to be a bad year for Starcraft in Korea unless something huge gets announced (more tournaments from third parties there, GOM hosting more than just the WCS GSLs, OGN making miraculous OSL comeback, etc...) I really would love to hear from blizz a response to this since kimaphan is lurknig in this thread, but I won't hold my breath lol
PS: For the record, I'm not blaming this all on Blizzard. It's partially on them, partially on GOM, partially on OSL and partially on the non-existant third parties holding tournaments lol
EDIT: Wooo, 3K posts ^^ Sexy Templar
I hid the rest of your post because I was only going to comment on the one thing I bolded. If I missed some crucial connection that was mentioned elsewhere, my apologies.
Anyway, I think you're underestimating how hard it will be for a Korean to actually get into WCS AM or EU. For AM (just for season 1), only three new Koreans will get to enter each season and for EU only six (which becomes two and four, respectively from season 2 onwards). That means that they don't get to stomp Americans or Europeans automatically by playing in a different region, first they have to prove that they are the three/six best Koreans to do so. If a bunch of Koreans did as you suggested and tried out in AM or EU, the ladder wildcard tournament might be the most stacked part of the tournament. Moreover, after having fought with loads of other Koreans for a top3/top6 placing, there's a 50% chance to face another Korean in a single, decisive Bo5 in Challenger League in AM (and 1/6 chance in EU, but that's not too bad). Doesn't sound like ez mode to me I don't know if there will be limitations in attending GSL qualifiers if you're trying to qualify for AM or EU, but if there are, then that would be another roadblock. Besides, the ladder wildcard isn't just for Koreans, it's for absolutely everyone in Masters who chose that region, if I understood it correctly. You never know; there might even be some strong foreigners there
But I agree fully that the Koreans who are already in AM/EU would be mad to leave, at least the way things seem to be right now.
A lot of misconceptions are being fostered, mainly because who can be bothered to look at the actual numbers?
1) WCS Korea has a much larger prize pool than AM and EU. The total prize pool for Korea is less than 20% larger than either AM or EU. Are Koreans only 20% better than their other-regional counterparts, or have only 20% more progamers in sum? That is up for you to decide.
2) The prize pool for Korea has been dramatically inflated. The first place prize (70 million won) is sizeably larger than those of GSLs past (50 million won), and many times larger than the 22.4 million pot of previous WCS Koreas (poor Soulkey, Maru, and Dear!). But the total prize pool is only 15% greater than WCS seasons in 2013 -- and that's not including the now-defunct season finals.
And the pool is essentially the same as GSLs of the past; only $4-5k USD, depending on exchange rates, separates them. However, there are only 3 GSLs now, compared to the 5-7 of previous years.
That said, I think Blizzard is just about doing all that it can -- and probably should -- do. Whether you agree with their changes at times or not, their support of their game has been far and beyond the call of any other developer/publisher in the RTS genre. Personally I would have liked to see how the tournament ecosystem would have evolved naturally on its own without the WCS system -- the way it did from 2010 to 2012 -- but I suppose that ship has sailed.
And when it comes to ships sailing, it pains me to say it, but I can't help but think a further downsizing of the Korea scene is in order. Korea has by far the most developed progamer/team culture and history, but frankly that doesn't mean much if there isn't the funding or popularity to support it. It is not incumbent on Blizzard or even GOM to continually sink funds into the Korean scene if there isn't the audience to buoy it; even in pro sports, you only expand franchises and leagues into regions and cities where the interest is deemed sustainable.
In terms of StarCraft 2 popularity alone, it's clear the EU region should be the most richly rewarded and invested in, from a business perspective. And also from a business perspective, if Mr. Chae believes that having a lopsidedly top-heavy prize pool is the way to go in order to generate hype and interest (even at the expense of other players), then all I can do is support him.
At this point, all I can do is sit back, enjoy the games, and hope for the best!
Not sure why everyone is acting like this stuff is good news... Everything is shrinking. I guess with more time in-between you could theoretically have other companies doing stuff like OGN/MLG/etc. but I really doubt it. I don't think the reason MLG got out of SC2 is because they couldn't find a date that WCS wasn't on. OGN is possible I suppose but even if they do an OSL or two that's still just 3 GSLs and 1-2 OSLs. Nothing compared to what we got in 2011 and 2012.
I really don't like getting rid of the season finals. That means the only times we will see players in different regions playing against each other is at blizzcon or occasionally at things like Dreamhack and IEM but at those tournaments it won't be the best of the best from each region it will just be a random mashup of players. It also means that Blizzcon isn't going to be the absolute best because representatives from Korea now have way less opportunity for points. The players in WCS AM/EU are the koreans that go to tons of foreign events. The Koreans that play mostly/only in Korea are going to be pretty screwed for getting to blizzcon unless OGN really does do some OSLs. It will be very possible that we could have someone win one of the GSLs next year and not get to Blizzcon. That will be completely ridiculous if it happens and it is a very large possibility with the removal of season finals and just the new point setup in general.
Korea barely has more prize money than the other regions and it all went to first place.... This is not going to lure a single Korean back to GSL. It needed like double the prize pool. It also should have been given more points not just prize money.
On November 21 2013 23:36 ffadicted wrote: It's a loooong shot that this will get answered, but I do have a question for kimaphan / blizzard.
What is your reasoning for (correctly) acknowledging the higher difficulty and greater number of high caliber players in the Korean region and raising the prize pool accordingly, but leaving the points pool exactly the same? I don't understand how one thing could happen without the other?
Anyone else feel free to help me understand too lol
Actually, what it seems to me is they acknowledged Korea as the most densely populated progamer area. Extra money=extra incentive to keep progaming (whoever wins WCS Korea is set for a year or two). The purpose is, I believe, to reach a level at which all SCII talent in the world is equally able to develop and all leagues are equally strong, so all leagues have equal points.
Edit: And if the leagues aren't equally strong, the best league will beat the others in community tournaments (Dreamhacks et al) and get the extra points there.
Only interpretation according to which it makes any sense. Thoughts?
Understandable, but think about it. Region lock the way they did it is fine and dandy, but there's two much easier and natural ways of doing it:
1. Offer more money at all levels in Korea 2. Offer higher chance of making it to the Global Finals
They tried doing 1, but failed at it because they're giving it all to first place. I could have gotten my conversion rates wrong, but looks like every spot other than first makes LESS money in Korea than they do in EU and AM, so from there, there is almost no incentive for koreans currently in AM and EU to leave and go back to korea to revive the scene with more competition, and expand the foreigner field in AM and EU
As far as 2 goes, same thing. You think that equal points will help foreigners, but it won't, it'll keep koreans in AM and EU, cuz at the end of the day, unless you're winning the whole thing, you're gonna get the same amoutn of points and more money in FAR FAR easier regions... IMO even more koreans should jump ship and head to AM and EU now, and that's what I would suggest if I was their managers.
Blizzard tried, but at the end of the day, by not giving more points to KR (their fault) and the stupid prize distribution (GOM's fault), they have failed at trying to do what they set out to do. And as far as the events outside of WCS, that's a moot point really, as only privileged koreans can manage to go and would've gone anyway regardless of these changes.
Killing this region debate was actually an easy 3 step process:
1. Offer significant more money to Koreans from top to bottom as financial incentive for Koreans to compete back home. They have failed at this. The top level Koreans capable of winning the giant first place prize were already competing in WCS Korea. The mid/lower end koreans have no financial incentive to go play in a harder tournament to make less money. They have failed completely in this task.
2. Offer somewhat larger chances of making it to Global Finals by increasing the point pool. Doesn't have to be massive, but give incentive again for lower/mid tier koreans to compete back home by giving more points out to good performances in the hardest tournament in the world. They did nothing to mitigate this, and failed completely. There is no point incentive to go back home.
3. Host more tournaments for Koreans in Korea. This is up to third parties GOM, OGN, etc... GSL is now reduced to 3 a year instead of the old 5, and OSL is gone completely. No other tournaments announced. This is by far a worst case scenario.
So the way I see it, how have they improved anything? The Korean scene is still f*cked with no way to help it improve coming in 2014. This soft region lock does little to help with the Korean invasion, as they still have some spots to sneak in from, and it'll be very hard to eliminate the current Korean population from those two tournaments (don't get me wrong though, this is good if blizz and GOM are gonna do jack sh*t about the points and prize distribution). The only improvements I see are (hopefully) better non-WCS events feeding into the WCS system, and the scheduling.
Overall, 2014 is going to be a bad year for Starcraft in Korea unless something huge gets announced (more tournaments from third parties there, GOM hosting more than just the WCS GSLs, OGN making miraculous OSL comeback, etc...) I really would love to hear from blizz a response to this since kimaphan is lurknig in this thread, but I won't hold my breath lol
PS: For the record, I'm not blaming this all on Blizzard. It's partially on them, partially on GOM, partially on OSL and partially on the non-existant third parties holding tournaments lol
EDIT: Wooo, 3K posts ^^ Sexy Templar
I can see whereyou're coming from, but I'm not sure it's time (yet) to be that pessimistic. Mr. Chae just said this in an interview. (Interview transcription)
Q; There are many complaints about GSL decreasing the number of tournaments 3 in 2014.? A: We wanted to run GSL this year, too, but could not. However, we will begin next year with the thought of starting fresh. We are trying to make a system that puts much thought into the teams and players. There are only 3 tournaments with the name “GSL”, but the possibility of creation of new tournaments is high. Business viability of that possibility will be explored.
Remember, we have no idea about the number of Koreans watching GOMTv. Even if it were smaller than other games' crowds, that wouldn't mean there isn't a viable Korean crowd. Yesterday's CJEntus vs EvilGeniuses (as a very simple not at all scientific example) seemed to have about half the korean-speaking viewers as english-speaking viewers on twitch... And there's also the possibility of making korean-accessible, korean-watchable tournaments in South East Asia...
My point is: let's wait and see whether Korea can fund more tournaments. If they can, maybe we're just worrying too much, and both money and points will sort themselves out?
1 4 Polt America 4375 2 5 HerO America 3450 3 3 Jaedong America 3150 4 9 MMA Europe 2850 5 1 Soulkey Korea 2750 6 11 TaeJa America 2750 7 2 INnoVation Korea 2600 8 10 MC Europe 2525 9 17 Revival America 2450 10 7 Maru Korea 2425 11 23 HyuN America 2400 12 16 NaNiwa Europe 2200 13 14 Mvp Europe 2100 14 15 duckdeok Europe 2050 15 31 Life Korea 1925 16 12 sOs Korea 1850
17 18 Oz America 1850 18 24 soO Korea 1800 19 6 Dear Korea 1750 20 19 Rain Korea 1750 21 27 VortiX Europe 1650 22 13 aLive America 1625 23 37 StarDust Europe 1600 24 20 ForGG Europe 1525 25 30 Stephano Europe 1525 26 21 Scarlett America 1450 27 26 TLO Europe 1450 28 8 Bomber Korea 1425 29 42 LucifroN Europe 1400 30 32 Symbol Korea 1350
This is how the WCS rankings would have looked without the Season Finals. It looks closer to the real list than I thought which is a good thing.
I still think that removing the Season Finals will make it harder for WCS Korea players to be fairly represented at Blizzcon, because it's such a competitive region that it can be extremely difficult to be consistent. For example everyone says how sOs had a bad S2/3, but in S2 he was eliminated in RO32 because he lost a BO1 to Maru and a BO1 to soO (Who are both WCS Korea finalists).
The Koreans locked into WCS EU/AM have it easy because the number of new Koreans going in to challenge them is small so they'll mainly be competing amongst each other for the rest of the year. A lot of the EU/AM Koreans are also those fortunate enough to be sent to most foreign tournaments as well. HerO, JD, Polt and TaeJa are pretty likely to make it to Blizzcon 2014 IMO, unless Korean teams step it up and send a lot of players to foreign events, or if we get other Korean events that award WCS points such as OSLs, but OGN doesn't seem to be interested in doing so.
GSL should definetly give out more WCS points to reflect the greater challenge it presents compared to the US and EU regions. I mean, at the end of the year it's the amount of points and not the amount of prize money you've got that gets a player into the global finals, so why should any Korean players who now have a spot in the US/EU leagues and have a good chance of getting the top places in those go back into the GSL to play for the same amount of points and a slightly larger monetary reward but at the expense of much greater challenge? The way I see it, the extra increase in GSL prize money isn't worth the possibility of getting less points than in the other leagues, where your chances getting the top spots are higher, and as such the chances to go to the global finals and get the big payouts are higher as well.
On November 21 2013 20:58 figq wrote: Best: GSL is back to dominance, higher prize; partial region lock seems nicely done. Worst: Increasing the WCS points for the winners. Doesn't accomplish anything good - the winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy. It's better to stimulate people who play very strong the whole year and finish in the top, than someone who accidentally wins once.
P.S. Excited for OGN doing Hearthstone. :D
The winner is sometimes an arbitrary guy who accidentally wins once? What does that even mean?
I think he means: In sc2, we saw too many one-hit wonder (never seen before, won one tournament suddenly and then never seen again).
That's not the equivalent of the winner being some random guy who won by accident, though.
SC2 is a volatile game. Among the top players often times any one of them could win an event. If you run the same event immediately again, perhaps someone other among them would win it. The guy who wins the number one place tends to be overhyped. The real strong ones shine when you see them make the top group again and again over a long period. Instead of giving even more points to the event winner, distribute the points in a more balanced fashion, so that you don't create artificial hype behind players who win one event and then almost completely disappear. Those guys then just come to the year final to be beaten by more consistent players. It's already a problem that the winners from the beginning of the year are going to be weaker than the winners from the end of the year when all of them come to the year finals. Adding even more points to the winners makes this problem even bigger. Hopefully you'd understand what I mean now.
On November 22 2013 13:23 JJH777 wrote: I really don't like getting rid of the season finals. That means the only times we will see players in different regions playing against each other is at blizzcon or occasionally at things like Dreamhack and IEM but at those tournaments it won't be the best of the best from each region it will just be a random mashup of players. It also means that Blizzcon isn't going to be the absolute best because representatives from Korea now have way less opportunity for points. .
I would not worry about that too much. In korea, GSL has been on for almost non-stop with very few breaks.
With upcoming 6-week periods of no individual competition between seasons, there is way more room for some extra korean tournaments - and with established studios, the only thing seperating smaller GomTV/OGN ran tournament from WCS points is the decision "should we go 10k or 25k prize pool?".
Silly silly silly, at this point I believe no matter what Blizzard tries to do there will just be so many wrongs. WCS KR having the same prize distribution as others will not help the strongest most competitive region, the other regions are full of non-serious "pros" and get as much in prize pool, in 2013 we saw the Koreans all move to compete in those regions to grab those $$$. Now those who are still there will need to fight for their survival, if they fall out that could be it for their careers since requalifying at KR will be super hard.
IMO they should just revert back to the 2012 system with improvements/tweaks, foreigners' fans can just watch the foreigners play until they get roflstomped by Koreans in some finals. Make WCS a separate tournament and clean wipe from previous rankings (or allow those currently in AM/EU to be seeded into it to cut their losses), GSL can continue as it is, perhaps with the top players seeded into WCS finals and make it so that KR has 2 prize pots rather than just 1. (KR deserves more prizepool than the other regions, they are simply full of far superior players). Wanting to develop AM and EU talents will need to start at some kind of grassroots development rather than silly tournament rule manipulations. Encouraging development of pro teams by introducing pro-league/gstl ongoing long term team tournaments will build that.
Heed my words, 2015 WCS will have changes again since they'll find new problems yet again, falling popularity etc. Their goal of wanting to make it so that there is one ultimate champion and one major tournament/storyline is just silly. Players' form changes over time and so do their skill level, rewarding players throughout various tournaments in a year fairly evenly would provide the best, fairest and consistent perpetual entertainment to fans. I really enjoyed 2011 and 2012 more than 2013. Forget about what Valve or Riot is doing with big showpiece tournament, SC2 needs to be different. Why must Blizzard act like a mindless sheep???
On November 23 2013 01:29 Khai wrote: Silly silly silly, at this point I believe no matter what Blizzard tries to do there will just be so many wrongs. WCS KR having the same prize distribution as others will not help the strongest most competitive region, the other regions are full of non-serious "pros" and get as much in prize pool, in 2013 we saw the Koreans all move to compete in those regions to grab those $$$. Now those who are still there will need to fight for their survival, if they fall out that could be it for their careers since requalifying at KR will be super hard.
IMO they should just revert back to the 2012 system with improvements/tweaks, foreigners' fans can just watch the foreigners play until they get roflstomped by Koreans in some finals. Make WCS a separate tournament and clean wipe from previous rankings (or allow those currently in AM/EU to be seeded into it to cut their losses), GSL can continue as it is, perhaps with the top players seeded into WCS finals and make it so that KR has 2 prize pots rather than just 1. (KR deserves more prizepool than the other regions, they are simply full of far superior players). Wanting to develop AM and EU talents will need to start at some kind of grassroots development rather than silly tournament rule manipulations. Encouraging development of pro teams by introducing pro-league/gstl ongoing long term team tournaments will build that.
Heed my words, 2015 WCS will have changes again since they'll find new problems yet again, falling popularity etc. Their goal of wanting to make it so that there is one ultimate champion and one major tournament/storyline is just silly. Players' form changes over time and so do their skill level, rewarding players throughout various tournaments in a year fairly evenly would provide the best, fairest and consistent perpetual entertainment to fans. I really enjoyed 2011 and 2012 more than 2013. Forget about what Valve or Riot is doing with big showpiece tournament, SC2 needs to be different. Why must Blizzard act like a mindless sheep???
So instead of following Valve and Riot, they should follow your opinion...
On November 21 2013 09:15 triforks wrote: nice the way higher prize money for korea should encourage koreans to go back there in hopes of more cash rather than stealing the easy money in am/eu when it was the same.
um... no, not at all. prize is same or worse for everyone but 1st place. Most players are likely to finish worse in Korea, and get even less money. Doesn't make sense for almost everyone playing outside Korea.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
"The people that don't play the game, have the loudest voice"
Alright, I was participating in my own toxic mindset, but it is frustrating. If people want an actual informed, reasonable, and fair perspective that takes both pros and cons into account for WCS 2014, check out Total Biscuit's podcast:
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
And there are asshole negative people who hide behind those valid arguments to spew their endless hate and stupid rage. Not all complainers are rational, even if they claim to be.
I just finished listening to TB's thought on the matter. It basically reflected most of what I felt would happen, I'm glad he feels its an overall improvement. He does have valid concerns regarding WCS NA and the Korea region, hopefully though GOM and especially OGN step up the challenge.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
And there are asshole negative people who hide behind those valid arguments to spew their endless hate and stupid rage. Not all complainers are rational, even if they claim to be.
and there are fan boy apologists who make dozens of excuses for Blizzard even when its clear Blizzard is entering a field of business far outside of their experience.
Blizzard is not doing a very good job relative to any organization whose sole purpose of existence is to over see competitive league play.
Blizzard is great at making games and not so great at organizing competitive league play.
James Naismith was an innovative resourceful guy and he invented basketball. He can't come any where close to doing David Stern's job.
Blizz is great at making PC online games and mediocre at running competitive leagues. Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft are all great. Every competitive league Blizz has headed up has yielded ho-hum results at best.
Blizz did it best in 2000 when they just ignored it and let the scene develop on its own. They do not have the balls to do that again. As a result, some people who remember Brood War in its hey-day are pissed off.
The only thing that I am really missing is that the KR prize money will be higher. I mean, in all honesty, winning GSL code S is much harder than winning in any of the other regions.
One question I currently have: when can we expect it to begin (the Challenger qualifiers)? :D
I really don't like how Challenger works though. I have nothing against it being unforgiving for sake of clarity, however the way it currently is a lot will depend drawing luck with respect to who your opponent will be. D:
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
And there are asshole negative people who hide behind those valid arguments to spew their endless hate and stupid rage. Not all complainers are rational, even if they claim to be.
and there are fan boy apologists who make dozens of excuses for Blizzard even when its clear Blizzard is entering a field of business far outside of their experience.
Blizzard is not doing a very good job relative to any organization whose sole purpose of existence is to over see competitive league play.
Blizzard is great at making games and not so great at organizing competitive league play.
James Naismith was an innovative resourceful guy and he invented basketball. He can't come any where close to doing David Stern's job.
Blizz is great at making PC online games and mediocre at running competitive leagues. Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft are all great. Every competitive league Blizz has headed up has yielded ho-hum results at best.
Blizz did it best in 2000 when they just ignored it and let the scene develop on its own. They do not have the balls to do that again. As a result, some people who remember Brood War in its hey-day are pissed off.
What? There was such a goddam outcry Blizzard should be part of this whole WCS in the same way Valve/Riot did. And now when they cave in they don't have the balls to let the scene developer on their own? This is just silly and once again shows that people have no clue what they even want.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
And there are asshole negative people who hide behind those valid arguments to spew their endless hate and stupid rage. Not all complainers are rational, even if they claim to be.
and there are fan boy apologists who make dozens of excuses for Blizzard even when its clear Blizzard is entering a field of business far outside of their experience.
Blizzard is not doing a very good job relative to any organization whose sole purpose of existence is to over see competitive league play.
Blizzard is great at making games and not so great at organizing competitive league play.
James Naismith was an innovative resourceful guy and he invented basketball. He can't come any where close to doing David Stern's job.
Blizz is great at making PC online games and mediocre at running competitive leagues. Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft are all great. Every competitive league Blizz has headed up has yielded ho-hum results at best.
Blizz did it best in 2000 when they just ignored it and let the scene develop on its own. They do not have the balls to do that again. As a result, some people who remember Brood War in its hey-day are pissed off.
I personally think Blizzard is doing a great job at organizing WCS. I am enjoying all the events, so I have nothing to complain about. e-Sports is still relatively new (baby-steps), compared to other kinds of sports. So respect it and give it a generation of time to develop into a more mature sport.
meh doesn't seem much better. From what I see it will mean slightly more koreans in GSL but still quite some in other regions. Other regions providing nearly as much money will just make it too attractive to pick that up considering there the gap between foreigners and koreans is bigger than ever. I still don't like this system, it sort of splits the korean scene which basically is the world top and segments it. And unlike before they will only meet once in a global finals, except now this global finals will probably not be 15 koreans and 1 good foreigner but have like 5 foreigners probably because their points are protected. They should stop trying to improve foreigner scene by WCS, it is pointless to do that tournaments anyway and it only destroys the korean scene for people that like to just watch the best. Before I only followed GSL and the occasional tournament seriously, now i hardly bother at all because it's all fragmented anyway. Every tournament i'm like 'hmm this is 75% of the top players, just wish they were all there', in the old code S that basically didn't happen.
On November 23 2013 01:56 HsDLTitich wrote: People will always complain.
Awesome changes, tho
It's good to have complaints...so long as their well-founded arguments, not just pointless bitching about this and that with no critical thinking applied to what people are saying. Opinions are the lowest form of knowledge.
I agree with this, but it's obvious that Blizzard can't please everyone. btw it's awesome that they actually listened to the community, I just don't understand some hate and the pessimistic posts in here
You can't? It's called the idiot mob/the cowardice of the internet. And yes, you're right, you can't please everyone. Thankfully, these baseless, hateful, and empty pessimistic posts really are the minority. They just yell the loudest.
There's a saying from Eastern Europe, the barrel with the fewest beans make the most noise...barrel being a person's brain.
Most of the criticisms here are 100% valid and shared amongst most ppl in the scene
And there are asshole negative people who hide behind those valid arguments to spew their endless hate and stupid rage. Not all complainers are rational, even if they claim to be.
and there are fan boy apologists who make dozens of excuses for Blizzard even when its clear Blizzard is entering a field of business far outside of their experience.
Blizzard is not doing a very good job relative to any organization whose sole purpose of existence is to over see competitive league play.
Blizzard is great at making games and not so great at organizing competitive league play.
James Naismith was an innovative resourceful guy and he invented basketball. He can't come any where close to doing David Stern's job.
Blizz is great at making PC online games and mediocre at running competitive leagues. Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft are all great. Every competitive league Blizz has headed up has yielded ho-hum results at best.
Blizz did it best in 2000 when they just ignored it and let the scene develop on its own. They do not have the balls to do that again. As a result, some people who remember Brood War in its hey-day are pissed off.
What? There was such a goddam outcry Blizzard should be part of this whole WCS in the same way Valve/Riot did. And now when they cave in they don't have the balls to let the scene developer on their own? This is just silly and once again shows that people have no clue what they even want.
there are different people with different opinions and they can coexist. just saying. it bothers me when people say something like this like every single person always thinks the same thing at each point in time.
May lead to another Korea all kill, but i like the changes. The region lock is still a bit confusing. Can players from a given region only switch regions after season one qualifiers, or do they have to wait for season 1 to end entirely?
Will there still be a free stream for GSL games now that they now have more control over Korea? I am wondering whether to purchase a 2014 season ticket or not.
Why is one person getting super rich more important than everyone else being able to make a living off of SC2?
I agree with the prize raises, but not for roughly $45,000 of the $50,000 all going to first place, and raising everyone else's prize pool by roughly a combined $5,000.
So the soft region lock on the qualifiers limits based on how many players can qualify and not how many can enter? How is that supposed to work? The total of the regions for WCS AM is 24 players, which is exactly how many qualify. So there has to be more players from each region entering the qualifiers.
So what if 24 chinese players enter the qualifier and just stomp everyone, how do you pick which 3 qualify and how do you pick the other 21 players?
Are they gonna have separate qualifier brackets for each region? I guess that's the only thing that makes any sense.
I was under the impression that they would all be in a bracket based off category. Like all Chinese players would be in 2 brackets (3 in season 1) of all Chinese players since that's how many spots they get
On December 11 2013 13:01 Shellshock wrote: I was under the impression that they would all be in a bracket based off category. Like all Chinese players would be in 2 brackets (3 in season 1) of all Chinese players since that's how many spots they get
On December 05 2013 15:07 Shinta) wrote: LOL $66,000 for 1st place and $15,000 for 2nd?
Why is one person getting super rich more important than everyone else being able to make a living off of SC2?
I agree with the prize raises, but not for roughly $45,000 of the $50,000 all going to first place, and raising everyone else's prize pool by roughly a combined $5,000.
I'm looking at the picture graph for how GSL will work. I'm confused about Code A.
Did they stop doing brackets entirely and just do groups for all of Code A? How do they determine the "12 old [players] who had good results from season 3 2103"? Do we have a list of players currently in Code A?
I guess Code S is the same, and should have Dear, Trap, jjakji, Maru, Soulkey, Rain, soO, and Parting right now.
There's a lot that could have and should have been done better and faster by Blizz over the years and the games, but this is truly VERY GOOD ! Well done and well presented! two thumps up!
n maybe some more focus/better terms for Challenger are needed and an more even distribution of the prize money but they are pro's, meaning they should have a secure payment/situation from their employers, aka teams.
Go E-sports!
Hope to see a lot of minor and medium sized local tournaments starting up the coming years now!
It's a bit early to tell if the changes to the WCS system works or not. The first qualifiers have barely started. I liked what I saw in WCS EU yesterday, but somehow it was a bit difficult to follow what happened in WCS NA so far.
I'm not so exited about the new challenger "league" in EU/NA tbh.
EPT![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/wcs2014/2014premierlarge.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/wcs2014/2014gsllarge.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sn7Wy.gif)
Major Tournaments
