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On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 21:20 NihiLStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2013 21:04 Plansix wrote:On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days? Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time. Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever. Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking? So what do you do on a TvP match on a custom map that has a neutral creep tumor? What do you do when there's a TvP custom map that, at some point in the game, gives you a drone to build a hatchery to build a zerg army? What do you do on a custom map that allows to change a unit's skin mid-game? There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc. It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
Third option is you load assets in memory as you need them and unload them when they are no longer needed.
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On November 19 2013 13:31 reps)squishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 13:21 rename wrote:Blizzard Wrote
We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously? Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved. ..... man PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great. Blizzard knows better then we do! ... No they don't
This wont work because everyone sees the skins. So part of the problem is they dont want people to be able to disable other peoples skins.
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soon we'll be seeing small games being sold, and big games being F2P.
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On November 19 2013 23:06 NihiLStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote:
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake". I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
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On November 19 2013 23:17 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 23:06 NihiLStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote:
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake". I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate. How do you determine what assets are used in a map? I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose). I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
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On November 19 2013 13:12 ishida66 wrote:
Now remove sentries, buff tanks and we have a perfect game.
I agree to an extent. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be steps that I'd agree with personally. Just don't forget the fact that a couple of "fixed" fungals can chain a maxed air army to death... (Thorzain vs. can't remember @HSC)
Bah, I'm not going to nag, the game's still very good. Conjoining arcade to the starter edition seems eerily humble of Blizzard. To be frank, I wonder what their angle is, but in the meanwhile I'm going to introduce a couple of friends to the game. 
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Even if I did not use the few new skins that are available since HotS even once, it somehow makes me sad that there are no new skins on their way...
I just like the Idea of unlockable stuff by playing more and more.
Besides, I hope 2.1 is coming soon, can't wait to make a ingame clan logo.
Hopefully they give you the option to import your own logo, I'm so pumped to make the dumbest logo out there :D
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On November 19 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 23:17 Conti wrote:On November 19 2013 23:06 NihiLStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote:
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake". I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate. How do you determine what assets are used in a map? I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose). I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do. Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
your technical expertise really adds so much to this thread... breaking out the "32 bit" comment... just pwnage.
neither side on this "debate" really has a clue and the entire debate just lowers the signal to noise ratio of the thread.
its a great move making the entire Arcade free in the Starter Edition. its a nice little "on ramp" to getting people to spend money on the actual game.. nice marketing strat by Blizz.
so far... every F2P RTS has gone down in a giant ball of flames.
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On November 19 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 23:17 Conti wrote:On November 19 2013 23:06 NihiLStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote:
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake". I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate. How do you determine what assets are used in a map? I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose). I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do. Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
There is no possible way SC2 loads everything in memory from the start of a game. Way it probably works is almost all assets start out not in memory. Zerg player builds a zergling, sc2 fetches the zergling model and stores it in memory and so forth.
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About the custom skins... They left out a key piece of information. In the map editor, the custom skins are Model Swap events. What this means is that if you have a custom skin for say, a zergling, the game transforms all of that players zerglings into the new one as soon as the model is created. I'm not sure what this means in terms of what actually gets loaded, however I think it might mean that both sets of assets need to be loaded by the game because those assets are an inherent part of that unit. I think that may be part of the limitation they are talking about, and that somehow the way they have these skins set up (as a model swap instead of replacing the assets) may be part of what is limiting things.
Anyway, the free arcade thing is really awesome motivation to finish my latest arcade map project. Better get on it!
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Hong Kong9179 Posts
Considering SC2 manages to turn Protoss music into generic WoW-esque environmental music, being able to change it is welcome.
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On November 19 2013 14:04 Sprouter wrote:
A day late and a dollar short. It feels really gross to be happy about features that were present in their previous games. Gameheart sounds neat at least.
Which of the features in this article were present in their previous games exactly? Sometimes it feels people are being negative for the sake of being negative, no reason to be mad? Np, make one up.
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I don't know I mean I am excited for these things, but they come so late. I can't help but say....Warcraft 3 had these things. I would imagine most of the devs are actually working on legacy of the void than HOTS now, they probably only have a few people who report to DB, but DB seems busy with Heroes of the storm lol. I guess awesome they are coming?
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This is not F2P multiplayer, as you can still only play custom games and vs. AI games with the starter edition.
That's sad, didnt expect it.
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On November 20 2013 00:11 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't know I mean I am excited for these things, but they come so late. I can't help but say....Warcraft 3 had these things. I would imagine most of the devs are actually working on legacy of the void than HOTS now, they probably only have a few people who report to DB, but DB seems busy with Heroes of the storm lol. I guess awesome they are coming?
Just curious, which of these things (besides automated tournaments) did WC3 have?
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You know, extensions make it way easier to, say, run a tournament with a 300-supply cap. While WCS won't do it (probably), we could much more easily start having tournaments with custom rules and doing our own balancing as a community.
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On November 19 2013 19:34 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 19:26 Damnight wrote:
While I love the patch and the free Arcade/custom games, I hope we'll never go full-free2play.
We already have too many cheaters as is... if you are good enough map hackers are not a problem .
That is false. And for reference you may talk to any progamer, they'll either all say it's a problem. You may take a look at this case of proofen maphack, ( he won money using hacks): http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1kw547/
The link inside the reddit thread links to myStarcraft a german site that did an extensive research about everything around imbatoss.
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The thing i'm most excited about is the clan ladder idea and BO3s on ladder something like that I'm interested to see whta we get
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Units with giant heads mode. NBA JAAAAAMMMM
COME ON AND SLAM
AND WELCOME TO THE JAM
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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EPT
