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Consistency is what makes the best SC2 players, but that's never meant winning every tournament to me. I think we're actually lucky to have so so many of these eras of different players dominating, because the odds were always against them, regardless of how good they were. It's damn hard to consistently win tournaments in this game.
It doesn't matter to me that the player to win Blizzcon isn't unanimously considered the best player in the world, and I'd argue that that isn't what this tournament was ever about. What WCS succeeded in doing was bringing together the 16 most consistent players throughout the year and making a badass tournament with them. But just doing that even is going to create a very volatile tournament because you don't have lesser players fluking their way in that are just fodder for the favorites. I'm sure they all had the potential to take it (well, the bottom 3-4 had pretty poor chances probably).
It's hard to talk about the best SC2 player when you require that the best player win every tournament, and yet the odds are always against the best player doing just that. The odds have probably always been that way, and I'm not drawing any conclusions about the game being more volatile now because of it. We'll see players go on ridiculous streaks again. If things went slightly differently and Dear won Blizzcon then this topic would probably be very different, and he was certainly very capable of taking it.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote:
So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him.
-Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1
-Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon
-Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous.
-JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through
-Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did.
-Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better
-sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking.
-The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
You what mate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS.
As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
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On November 14 2013 13:32 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 14 2013 13:20 Bagration wrote:On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote:
The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination. If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways. Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking). Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea. Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
You might also remember a guy named Yellow? Also I find it hilarious that you impy that people will remember sOs longer than Jaedong.
On topic: as I have always said, there is too little micro and macro to differentiate the top players in sc2 sadly.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 14 2013 17:06 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 13:32 Bagration wrote:On November 14 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 14 2013 13:20 Bagration wrote:On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote:
The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination. If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways. Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking). Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea. Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments. You might also remember a guy named Yellow? On topic: as I have always said, there is too little micro and macro to differentiate the top players in sc2 sadly.
There might be too little variety for all players to create their own completely unique and distinguishable styles, but there is no lack of oppurtunity to differentiate yourself in the micro/macro department. Compare the way Dear plays to the way Rain plays, for example, or compare how HerO plays to how Trap plays. The differences - both the stylistic differences and the differences in micro/macro/what have you are there and they are noticeable, though perhaps less so than in Brood War. The two series Dear played vs Maru showcased this pretty well I feel.
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I think that in SC2, we will never have such a domination of one\two players compared to SC BW, because, well, SC2 is way too easy.
Don't get me wrong, it's still insanely difficult game, but easy enough that at least 20 top Koreans can handle it.
If WCS finals were to be held the other day, I am pretty sure that we could have very diffferent top 4, with Soulkey, Inno, Dear etc.
These top players are so close to each other in terms of skill, that you'd better toss a coin rather than predict who's gonna take BO5,
Another question is whether it is OK or NOT. For me, it is just fine cause you can never predict thw winner at the highest level, there are more "surprises" and makes the game more fun to watch.
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Sure, you're right about the players styles. But I think there isn't enough room to make improvments and play so much better than everyone else that you can win consistently. There are also so many ways to just lose randomly that it is very hard for the very best players to win entire tournaments.
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On November 14 2013 17:18 TW wrote:
I think that in SC2, we will never have such a domination of one\two players compared to SC BW, because, well, SC2 is way too easy.
Don't get me wrong, it's still insanely difficult game, but easy enough that at least 20 top Koreans can handle it.
If WCS finals were to be held the other day, I am pretty sure that we could have very diffferent top 4, with Soulkey, Inno, Dear etc.
These top players are so close to each other in terms of skill, that you'd better toss a coin rather than predict who's gonna take BO5,
Another question is whether it is OK or NOT. For me, it is just fine cause you can never predict thw winner at the highest level, there are more "surprises" and makes the game more fun to watch.
I've never understood this. Can you point to me a sc2 player who have perfect macro/micro/multitask/decision making? Maybe Mvp was kinda "perfect"@2011, but that wasnt too far from bw dominans, right? There is obviously alot of work to do in sc2, and if someone manages to perfect all of these aspects we could very well get a sc2 bonjwa
I'm a total nubtho, please enlighten me
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Honestly, youre hanging in delirious territory if you dont think he was dominating
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On November 14 2013 16:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote:
So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him.
-Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1
-Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon
-Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous.
-JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through
-Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did.
-Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better
-sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking.
-The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan) You what mate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS. As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
Soulkey hangs out around the top, like he did in BW; he doesn't have the eye of the tiger, he's no #1 player. Sure, he can win a tournament, of course. His whole style is very controlled and systematic. It doesn't rely on unmatched unit control or tense split-second decision-making. That means it will be very solid but not reach the same heights as the best player on his best day.
On the other hand, Maru has impeccable unit control and aggression. However, his play shows a lack of strategic depth that makes him potentially unstable at the top of the scene. This should at least be recognized, even if it doesn't turn out to be the defining factor of his success.
It's true I wouldn't be explaining my perspective if I felt like there was no evidence I had insights others didn't or there was no reason anyone would listen to me -- is there something wrong with that? Since this is the post-Blizzcon discussion I thought it wouldn't be too controversial to put my thoughts down.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
I agree. When i did a prediction for the finals i suprisingly found sOs being a finalist facing Dear from the other side of the bracket.
But, frankly speaking, that didn't come from consideration of sOs being the best player in the world. It's just the way brackets were defined.
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At least you didn't write anything about the law that doesn't exist. ~
I liked the text, Wax.
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United States97277 Posts
The law definitely exists. Crushes Soulkey and then loses to sOs?
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On November 14 2013 16:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him.
You what mate?
His username basically spills the beans. He's clueless.
On November 14 2013 19:09 Shellshock wrote:
The law definitely exists. Crushes Soulkey and then loses to sOs?
sOs was wrecking every Terran he met. He was the best player that day. Bomber was the best Terran, and sadly, that didn't help enough..
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United States97277 Posts
best terran on that half of the bracket*
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On November 14 2013 19:13 Shellshock wrote:
best terran on that half of the bracket*
Who am I kidding, prime fans are clueless too ~ :D
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On November 14 2013 19:14 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 19:13 Shellshock wrote:
best terran on that half of the bracket* Who am I kidding, prime fans are clueless too ~ :D
The best Terrans in the world right now are probably Bomber, Maru and Polt, but in my opinion, the best Terrans of 2013 were Maru, Polt and INnoVation. Guess I'm clueless too.
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On November 14 2013 16:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote:
So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him.
-Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1
-Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon
-Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous.
-JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through
-Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did.
-Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better
-sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking.
-The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan) You what mate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS. As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
He's kind of right in some ways though. Naniwa, Hero, aLive, MVP, MC and duckdeok didn't really have a realistic chance of winning the whole thing. sOs had a relatively easy path compared to Jaedong which is pretty interesting. I think Jaedong's losses are mental. I don't question his drive or whatever and completely respect him but it seems in SC2 at least, he can't close them out. sOs played insane though. And everybody completely underrated him. He's been consistently strong in actual games (and we haven't seen many). His eliminations in seasons 2 and 3 were pretty damn close and he loomed threatening at the time to be placing a high finish. I hope he dominates the international scene too - cos clearly he can play well on weekend tournaments... insane clutch factor. And I'm a Terran fanboii....
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Very good article! I really feel Dear had the potential to getting the title of the world's best if he had managed to sweep wcs grand finals as well 
But then he faced... THE DONG! <3
Also, I don't think a lot of folks appreciate how statistically unlikely it is to become a repeat champion, even if you are much better than the competition!
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So we can accept that Innovation was dominating early year, even though he won only one championship, because we can look at the games and see that he won most of them.
But now that Dear hasn't won Blizzcon, he clearly isn't dominating, because... he hasn't won all the championships?
Dear is on the warpath nowadays. If it's really important to have bestplayerintheworld, which to me it's not, I'd say he is right now.
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I'm quite fine with not having one guy to crush them all in Starcraft 2 to be quite frank. Most of the time, when it happens that some guy utterly dominates the sport, it becomes boring for the viewers and fans. The global finals were very interesting precisely because I had no idea of who would win it.
I'm also fine with people calling a player the best in the world even if it is for a few weeks or months. I don't see the problem with distinguishing a guy who is the "hottest stuff in town" currently.
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EPT
