It's easy to put a lot of stock into hype, titles, and whatever you're being sold by the loudest promotional mouthpieces in the industry. But the truth is that the WCS Global Finals alone were never going to crown the best player in the world.
Yes, players like Dear, Maru, and Soulkey had chances to clinch that fickle title of best in the world at Blizzcon. However, that was because Blizzcon would be the capstone on an impressive body of previous work, not because Blizzcon had some magical quality. Of course, there was a greatly heightened degree of prestige due to the year-long build up and the sheer amount of money on the line. But in a game with so many match-ups, styles, and possibilities, a sixteen-man, single-elimination tournament can only mean so much, even if that tournament is the WCS Global Finals.
So, where does that leave our champion Woongjin_sOs, who snatched the grand final trophy after a long drought of notable tournament finishes? The words of Season 3 champion Dear are appropriate here:
"I don't know about any other day, but today I'm the champion of the world."
sOs completely deserves to be the WCS 2013 champion. He was the best player in the world on November 10th. But like 2012 champion PartinG, it does not make him the #1 player on the planet. sOs was invisible for WCS Seasons 2 and 3, and failed to produce more than average results (by Korean standards) at IEM New York and DreamHack Bucharest. What his Blizzcon win has done is thrust him into an increasingly chaotic picture for the title best player in the world.
We might be in the most chaotic period of non-dominance since StarCraft 2 was released. Fans of StarCraft 2 are too used to there being a player who stands out above the rest, widely agreed upon to be a step above his peers. Mvp ruled 2011, DRG and MKP claimed early 2012, Life was unstoppable as he swept through the second half of 2012, and INnoVation dominated the early HotS era.
For the last four months, there hasn't been a single player who has reached that level. There have been players who have were red-hot for brief periods of time, but none of them were able solidify their position. INnoVation's reign was stopped by the ascendant Maru, who proceeded to be twice thwarted by Dear in his back-to-back championship runs. In turn, Dear had his momentum stopped by an even more rampant Jaedong at Blizzcon, who was in turn blind-sided by the tricky sOs.
The ever consistent Soulkey and Jaedong have ended up being consistent in the most frustrating possible way, always in the championship picture but failing to make the final leap. Then there's Bomber, whose inconsistency continues to infuriate and baffle even the most devoted fans of StarCraft 2.
Even players who were not at Blizzcon like PartinG, Life, and Rain must be given consideration, as they have shown a quality of play that suggests they could have fought evenly with the rest of their countrymen at Anaheim. Altogether, there are more than a dozen players who are tied at the top, with none able to conclusively prove his superiority over the others.
For better or for worse, that's the state of StarCraft in the aftermath of WCS 2013. Some might find the situation disorienting, preferring the stability of what has been StarCraft 2's natural state for years: The one king, and all those who seek to take his throne. There's no doubting that is the most convenient story to follow, and the existence of such titans in the past has surely benefited StarCraft as a spectator sport.
Meanwhile, other fans will revel in the chaos, excited at a period of rare unpredictability. There's the feeling that anything could happen before chaos finally becomes order. It may be difficult to delve into so many stories and threads, but surely there is a rich reward for those who put in the effort.
With the most prestigious tournament of WCS Korea-Code S on break until next year (or will it be just Code S by then?), it seems like the title of best-in-the-world will be vacated for several months to come.
Or will it? DreamHack Winter, HomeStory Cup,ASUS ROG Northcon, WCG, Red Bull Battle Grounds, IEM Singapore and the GSL Hot6ix Cup still remain in 2013, cramming themselves into the limited space between WCS years. Jaedong has at least DreamHack Winter and Northcon left on his schedule, sOs heads to both Jönköping and New York, and MC appears to be going everywhere. All while the four WCS point spots at IEM Singapore remain mysteriously veiled.
So for now, enjoy this strange state of affairs. WCS is over, but there are sure to be many great battles before the year is out. The throne may not be vacant for long.
nice write up, there is always gonna be hard to say whos the best players if someone dosn't destroy the rest of the competition for a longer period of time.
On November 14 2013 08:53 marvellosity wrote: Really don't think you're giving Dear's back to back wins in premier tournaments enough credit tbh.
This he is the best player in the world.
He fell to Jaedong, but he went head to head in straight up games while sOs did more mindgames. See his game vs Whirlwhind and how he controls, it's beautiful.
edit: Compare to Jaedong has only 55%, even lower if I set it to since june. Dear and sOs might have the highest other than Innovation, both at ~67%. Haven't checked all players though!
I say sOs is tbh. I really wanna say jaedong with all my heart, and getting to the finals of 5 top tier tournaments this year surely speaks for him, but he lacks that one championship you somewhat need to call somebody the best. Blizzcon was supposed to be the event that'd crown the one champion of this years wcs, and where parting competed in a tournament that was so full of foreigners, and the thing that used to be WC fucking G, which I would never use as something to decide the best player in the world by, sos won an insanely stacked tournament at blizzcon and to me thats enough to call him the best atm. But starcraft is always changing and given that korean individual leagues are at halt it'll take a while to see whether sos can maintain his position.
@1Dhalism: He basically won season 1 kr (that one game difference doesn't matter much to me, he literally needed to just build a tank 3 out of the 4 he lost) and the season 1 finals + his proleague performance was insane.
On November 14 2013 08:53 marvellosity wrote: Really don't think you're giving Dear's back to back wins in premier tournaments enough credit tbh.
This he is the best player in the world.
He fell to Jaedong, but he went head to head in straight up games while sOs did more mindgames. See his game vs Whirlwhind and how he controls, it's beautiful.
But I will agree right now that we have a vacant definitive throne uncharacteristic of the scene right now. But still the best player right now is Dear.
I really wish Dear won. He would have been undeniably the best SC2 player. Winning GSL, Season Finals, and Blizzcon back to back to back would have been the most impressive performance so far in SC2.
by an inch or a mile. when ure naming the best in the world winrate is irrelevant. we've known plenty of proleague heros who've made a minimum impact outside of it in BW.
On November 14 2013 09:13 Lorch wrote:
@1Dhalism: He basically won season 1 kr (that one game difference doesn't matter much to me, he literally needed to just build a tank 3 out of the 4 he lost) and the season 1 finals + his proleague performance was insane.
That's just fanboyism. Winning is the only thing that matters. Innovation is a great player, one of the best. But dominating he was not. Not to the extent of MVP/nestea/mc and all the rest of them.
From the title I was expecting an incredibly pessimistic article, but it was actually a perfect run down of what SC2 is and has been up until now. Champions and “World’s Best Player” in SC2 are as frequent and fleeting as military coups in rouge states. I think MC epitomises this most of all as a player who in the past has gone from top of the world, to rock bottom, to all out redemption in the space of about eight months. SC2 has never had a “bonjwa”, the closest we have come is probably Mvp been unofficially crowned the “King of Wings” (and even that would be debated by some people).
@1Dhalism: He basically won season 1 kr (that one game difference doesn't matter much to me, he literally needed to just build a tank 3 out of the 4 he lost) and the season 1 finals + his proleague performance was insane.
That's just fanboyism. Winning is the only thing that matters. Innovation is a great player, one of the best. But dominating he was not. Not to the extent of MVP/nestea/mc and all the rest of them.
I don't even like innovation much. To you winning may be the only thing that matters. To me there is no difference in how I look upon soulkey and innovation from that tournament. They both had a fantastic run, dominating their competition. Just because there is a one game difference between them doesn't mean, to me, that soulkeys performance should be valued higher. Of course he wasn't as dominant as the only player to win a code s without dropping a map, or the only guy to win 4 gsls or the highest winner in sc2 history. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't, without a doubt, the best player in the world from hots release to wcs korea season 2.
With tournaments being held left and right, and the champions of yesterday having their reigns toppled in a month or as little as weeks, it's no wonder crowning an official "Best Player" is so controversial and difficult in SC2. Waxangel's article really caught the gist of how naming a true champion of 2013 is nearly impossible, and with the year anything but over, it becomes even more complex as an answer.
@1Dhalism: He basically won season 1 kr (that one game difference doesn't matter much to me, he literally needed to just build a tank 3 out of the 4 he lost) and the season 1 finals + his proleague performance was insane.
That's just fanboyism. Winning is the only thing that matters. Innovation is a great player, one of the best. But dominating he was not. Not to the extent of MVP/nestea/mc and all the rest of them.
Thats just a fight of words, it all comes down to how you interpret the word "Dominance/Dominating". Is it domination when a player is consistently number 1 through a period of time or is it in the manor he wins his games? Because, if you watched, which I did and several others, the way Innovation absolutely crushed his competition pre Hellbat nerf, then you wouldn't hesitate to call him a dominant factor. He crumbled against Soulkey being ahead 3-0 in the Season 1 Finals at WCS Korea, but also showcased some absolutely stunning gameplay during that period, which also led him to win the Season 1 Global Finals. And all during this time, he was also maintaining a very very high win ratio in Proleague, only bested by Flash, as I recall, could be wrong on that one.
So honestly, saying he wasn't dominant isn't very befitting if you ask me.
The title and timing of this article is such a slap in the face to sOs. The tournament was to find "the best player in the world", or so it was hyped. Even if the actual article isn't unkind to sOs, the title seems like a bit of a shot. Just because nobody (other than rotterdam) was smart enough to hype him, it doesnt mean hype itself is out of place in starcraft.
On November 14 2013 09:28 SiguR wrote: The title and timing of this article is such a slap in the face to sOs.
Come on.
I disagree. No one is doubting sOs played extremely well at blizzcon, but he hasn't demonstrated that consistency needed to be called the best in the world. Dear was very close to achieving that but fell just short. I'm inclined to agree with the article (for now) that we can't call anyone the absolute best in the world
On November 14 2013 09:29 dinosrwar wrote: Power Rank plzzzz :3
1. Dear 2. sOs 3. Soulkey 4. Maru 5. Jaedong 6. Innovation 7. Bomber 8. Polt 9. Taeja 10. Life
There you go!
edit: HIGHLY subjective! edit2: I say top 7 is so close it's not even funny!! The next three are players I think can win any tournament on a good day, but not just as good as top 7.
On November 14 2013 09:29 dinosrwar wrote: Power Rank plzzzz :3
1. Dear 2. sOs 3. Soulkey 4. Maru 5. Jaedong 6. Innovation 7. Bomber 8. Polt 9. Taeja 10. Life
There you go!
edit: HIGHLY subjective! edit2: I say top 7 is so close it's not even funny!! The next three are players I think can win any tournament on a good day, but not just as good as top 7.
Nononono
1. Dear Best PvT in the world, really good PvP (3-0ing MC, wins against Hero), and remarkable absolutely remarkable PvZ (4-0 Soulkey, nuff said. But I'll say more and say 2-3 Jaedong which isn't bad considering Jaedong is a monster when he's allowed to do what he wants. sOs didn't allow that so that's why he won. But Dear went straight up against the best zvp in the world and almost won.
Won KR Season 3 and then backed it up with Season 3 finals win.
2. Innovation This isn't supported yet, but I think he's recovered his prime. Can't justify this but I have the feeling. Keep an eye out and see if I'm right!
3. Jaedong Getting second place at harder and harder tournaments is an indicator of how far he has come. While he's weak in ZvT(compared to his other match-ups, and has to rely really on timings/"cheeses" versus terrans(see:Maru, his old ZvT's, any macro game where he loses), he's not awful at it. But this is made up for by the best ZvP on the planet (who else is even a question? Soulkey?lol , and hopefully still dominant ZvZ although we haven't seen that match-up much lately.
4. Maru WCS KR champion, then semifinalists in the last WCS KR and Season 3 finals. Consistancy plus amazing play makes him forth. 5. sOs
He earned this one. I don't think his Blizzcon competition was actually 'hard' in the broad scheme of things, but he did show solid play and showed he's a level above mid-high level Koreans. So he proved he's up there with the top 16 at least, and I'll grant him this because he probably has the best PvZ in the world. He would get crushed by Maru probably though, but that's my opinion.
6. Bomber Minus TvP, this man is an absolute machine. Won WCS Season 2 finals and has displayed tip top, very tip top level TvT. Don't know if there's a better TvTer then him.
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
This article is spot on. I think that the struggle most people would have naming the world's "best player" right now is a good metric for the fact that it is almost impossible to have a "best in the world" under most circumstances. Maybe at the height of Mvp's power, we could've said so.
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
there is no flash yet in sc2 .. and the real flash is still not doing well after the proleague and wcs season 2 .. and im still hoping for him to achieve better T_T
and i would say Dear would be the strongest player in the world .. even if jaedong took him out .. but come on ? it was no shame it was jaedong .. the kids too good in all games .. and he is working so hard to achieve that form .. and the dong also needs to win against Dear so that he could complete the kong cycle in wcs grand finals :p
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
Your list is missing someone. I'll let you guess.
It was impressive that duckdeok beat Innovation and went 2-3 against Maru but I wouldn't consider him overall good enough to put on the list just yet
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
Your list is missing someone. I'll let you guess.
It was impressive that duckdeok beat Innovation and went 2-3 against Maru but I wouldn't consider him overall good enough to put on the list just yet
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
Your list is missing someone. I'll let you guess.
It was impressive that duckdeok beat Innovation and went 2-3 against Maru but I wouldn't consider him overall good enough to put on the list just yet
How did you know
How can you not mention Naniwa?! Didn't you see how he crushed Revival, easy 3-0. Very impressive series imo.
People say sOs fell off in WCS Korea S2, but WCS Korea is INSANE. sOs was knocked out in the RO32 for losing a BO1 to Maru, the eventual champion, and a BO1 to soO, S3 runner-up. If you put sOs in America he probably would have won every season.
On November 14 2013 09:00 DJHelium wrote: I feel that only if Dear had won we would have a best player in the world atm, and even then I wouldn't be certain.
As it is now, I feel there's about 6-8 players that all could be considered. And it feels good!
This is civil war. Time to choose sides!
The warlords:
sOs Dear Maru Jaedong Soulkey Innovation Parting Bomber Taeja
I would argue that WCS Korea is the tournament that determines the best of the best, but even then, that tournament has a lot of quirky inconsistencies because it is more preparation based. Usually, the favorites such as SoulKey begin to fall shortly because of the VODS that display his style. I think SC2 needs more time to develop, so Blizzard can figure out if this chaotic scene is fitting or not.
BlizzCon should be viewed more as a World Cup that gathers players from all over the world. As for soccer these days, the best region is considered to be Europe, which acts like WCS Korea in some ways.
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
Holy shit 40-0... That's crazy and also gives me hope that SC2 isn't has random as people think. 40 bo1 in a row... Anyway: Terran: Maru/innovation Protoss: Dear/sOs Zerg: Jaedong/Soulkey
Feel like it's fairly clear cut. Bomber/Taeja/Polt definitely up there but not top 2. Can't wait to see Innovation again I've been missing his dominance. I don't think he was expecting Finale to play so well and practiced too much TvT
Obviously it's good, but all the players at Blizzcon could probably repeat that feat.
I think someone said the account started with Plat MMR from last season, but yeah I kind of agree with you. We've already seen people like ByuN come over and get like 85+% win rates on NA so pretty much anyone from Blizzcon could be expected to do way better than that. 40-0 is still impressive not drop a map though.
Well, by this logic there is hardly ever a best basketball, baseball or football team either. Sure, they might win in the playoffs and win the championship, but unless they were also hands down the most dominant regular season team, one could argue that there's still ambiguity.
Of course, one could argue that the entire point of basically turning all the major tournaments into part of one massive supertournament to settle the best of the best would be to eliminate this ambiguity.
It really comes down to how much you buy into the idea of a playoff system being a valid way to settle the best in a given sport. IME, most Americans really do place most of the value on winning the "championship". Whereas Europeans are more likely to place more emphasis on the overall body of work.
On November 14 2013 08:53 marvellosity wrote: Really don't think you're giving Dear's back to back wins in premier tournaments enough credit tbh.
This he is the best player in the world.
He fell to Jaedong, but he went head to head in straight up games while sOs did more mindgames. See his game vs Whirlwhind and how he controls, it's beautiful.
Huge Dear fan here, but I think you're putting too much stock in the alleged "correct way to play", which is perceived to be macro. Similarly not enough credit is given to the mindgames, which show intelligence, willingness to take calculated risks, and ability to select builds.
If Jaedong wins: 'The tyrant finally cements his best player in the world status by beating 2 time champion dear' When sOs wins: 'No best player in the world even if he beats Jaedong and Bomber because a million fans on TL cast doubts on his wins'
Of course, JD hasn't won but we all know what Wax will post if JD wins...
On November 14 2013 12:09 sithvincent wrote: If Jaedong wins: 'The tyrant finally cements his best player in the world status by beating 2 time champion dear' When sOs wins: 'No best player in the world even if he beats Jaedong and Bomber'
People underestimate the gulf between WCS America and WCS Korea. Jaedong faced vastly weaker competition than sOs did most of the year (though he did perform well at dreamhack and in the season finals, which does deserve some credit).
Blizzcon should have been a double-elimination tournament with group stages- that would have been a lot more meaningful as more players would have had the chance to play each other. At first I didn't like double-elimination but now I realize it's advantages.
On November 14 2013 12:30 Bagration wrote: sOs is the best. He is #1. He is the 2013 WCS champion. End of discussion
You win one weekend tourney and you're the world's greatest player with no debate? Come now.....
Blizzcon is not just any weekend tournament. It's the world championship, it's the Super Bowl of SC2, our version of The International.
Sure, there is a lot of volatility in a single weekend, but what matters is the clutch factor. If you cannot perform when the pressure is on, then that is unfortunate.
Now of course there is going to be discussion now. But 5 years from now, when we look back on Liquipedia to see who won WCS 2013, we are only going to see sOs. That's what SC2 is all about, winning the championship.
Remember oGs Top? He made it to the finals of GSL August. But no one cares, because he didn't win it all. Remember the guy Fruitdealer beat in the first GSL? Neither do I.
And it wasn't even close. He won Blizzcon convincingly, with a 4-1 finals finish.
The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
On November 14 2013 12:09 sithvincent wrote: If Jaedong wins: 'The tyrant finally cements his best player in the world status by beating 2 time champion dear' When sOs wins: 'No best player in the world even if he beats Jaedong and Bomber because a million fans on TL cast doubts on his wins'
Of course, JD hasn't won but we all know what Wax will post if JD wins...
No, it's just silly to state he's the best when he had a single good run. He doesn't have prolonged dominance. He had a single tournament win, that just happened to have a very prestigious title to it. When you look at it, he won 4 matches total. Four matches is all. Stating he's the best in the world because he won 4 matches total is ridiculous. It's heavily dependent as well on who he even ended up playing and what style is most effective against what type of player.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
If you make any power-rank Jaedong is most certainly at the top of that ranking.
People will STILL doubt him. But when he's racked up two more finals and maybe even a tournament win before 2014, there is no doubt that is the strongest tournament powerhouse out there.
Considering my bias, Dear's play was pretty fucking kickass and I'm grudgingly excited to see how his styles develop.
OK - here's my thoughts: I have NO idea how ANYONE could say that the Global Finals indicated who the best player in the world is at ALL when there was no round robin. There HAS to be a round robin of all players when they are of this caliber. Otherwise it just doesn't make any fucking sense.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
Don't reference BW. Please don't. That's just silly lol <3.
Because if you touch BW, you touch the legacy of Jaedong...
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
Which is why I added "generally speaking" to the argument.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
He is the best, because he's consistent. All these other Koreans are flukes. Taking gold, only to disappear back into the mass of faceless Korean progamers.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
Don't reference BW. Please don't. That's just silly lol <3.
Because if you touch BW, you touch the legacy of Jaedong...
Jaedong is BW legend. Only a fool would try to argue against that. All I'm arguing is that Jaedong is not the best player in the world.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
He is the best, because he's consistent. All these other Koreans are flukes. Taking gold, only to disappear back into the mass of faceless Korean progamers.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
Don't reference BW. Please don't. That's just silly lol <3.
Because if you touch BW, you touch the legacy of Jaedong...
Jaedong is BW legend. Only a fool would try to argue against that. All I'm arguing is that Jaedong is not the best player in the world.
Out of all the non-best SC2 players he's the best one yet.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
Don't reference BW. Please don't. That's just silly lol <3.
Because if you touch BW, you touch the legacy of Jaedong...
Jaedong is BW legend. Only a fool would try to argue against that. All I'm arguing is that Jaedong is not the best player in the world.
Out of all the non-best SC2 players he's the best one yet.
I think on this we can agree. The best player out of the non-championship class players out there.
I'm not buying that there ever was a "reign" of any player in Starcraft 2. From my perspective, each of the players' respective period of dominance, mentioned in the article, were filled with gaps of inconsistency and felt incredibly fragile. Why? DJ Wheat mentioned that there hasn't yet been a BW level of dominance in Starcraft 2. (As well as many other personalities in so many words) That's something I crave for, yet I've been hearing that perception is actually false. The data shows that winrates of Bonjwas were comparable to that of the best players today. Of course win-rates don't tell it all. I wish there was a thread that definitively debunks the nostalgia surrounding BW, or at least explains how this nostalgia is generated, because it's always shoved in your face and creates unrealistic expectations.
On November 14 2013 12:09 sithvincent wrote: If Jaedong wins: 'The tyrant finally cements his best player in the world status by beating 2 time champion dear' When sOs wins: 'No best player in the world even if he beats Jaedong and Bomber because a million fans on TL cast doubts on his wins'
Of course, JD hasn't won but we all know what Wax will post if JD wins...
No, it's just silly to state he's the best when he had a single good run. He doesn't have prolonged dominance. He had a single tournament win, that just happened to have a very prestigious title to it. When you look at it, he won 4 matches total. Four matches is all. Stating he's the best in the world because he won 4 matches total is ridiculous. It's heavily dependent as well on who he even ended up playing and what style is most effective against what type of player.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Just pointing out, to qualify for the finals there was a lot more than 4 matches played. The whole year was the qualifier for that event.
So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote: So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
Well i kinda agree, but dear isnt the bets player in the world, he is overrated as fuck
Polt was the only player to win back-to-back regional championships, won three total championships in 2013, and has insane win percentages, but struggled on the stages of the biggest tournaments.
INnoVation looked like he was the most dominating player of 2013 overall and finished 2nd in WCS points despite playing in the hardest region, but he's fallen off greatly near the end of the year.
Dear was the only player to win a regional championship and then go on to win a season finals but he was non-existant before that and couldn't pull through in the Global Finals.
sOs may be the most innovative and unpredictable player and won the biggest tournament of the year, the Global Finals, but that was his only championship win.
Soulkey finished as the No. 1 player in the world in points despite playing in the hardest region and not playing in any outside tournaments — a heck of an accomplishment but the championship wins just don't add up.
Jaedong was probably the most consistent player in 2013 but he doesn't even have one championship win.
Sorry guys, 2013 just doesn't have a clear No. 1 player in the world...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's our nature to want to crown someone the best but personally, I like this competitiveness. Different players have been the best at different times this year.
On November 14 2013 11:49 awesomoecalypse wrote: Sure, they might win in the playoffs and win the championship, but unless they were also hands down the most dominant regular season team, one could argue that there's still ambiguity.
Of course, one could argue that the entire point of basically turning all the major tournaments into part of one massive supertournament to settle the best of the best would be to eliminate this ambiguity.
It really comes down to how much you buy into the idea of a playoff system being a valid way to settle the best in a given sport. IME, most Americans really do place most of the value on winning the "championship". Whereas Europeans are more likely to place more emphasis on the overall body of work.
You can't deny that BW had consistency especially in the recent years.
When Bisu beat Savior, it was considered an upset. But then Bisu took 2 more titles after that (forgive my shitty memory). Bisu was no lucky rookie, he became arguably the #1 protoss of all time. Then JD's reign began, no further elaboration needed. Flash began to take over from 2009, with 2010 being the year of his absolute domination.
A few upsets in between with Hydra and Fantasy, also very good players in their own right, having some victories. Then jangbi won the last 2 in a row.
So what you see here is a general trend. Winners do not typically fade out of the picture. Still, there is some space for upsets, enough to keep it exciting, yet there are usually overwhelming favourites, and for good reason. Unless it's JvF. JvF.
Consistency is what makes the best SC2 players, but that's never meant winning every tournament to me. I think we're actually lucky to have so so many of these eras of different players dominating, because the odds were always against them, regardless of how good they were. It's damn hard to consistently win tournaments in this game.
It doesn't matter to me that the player to win Blizzcon isn't unanimously considered the best player in the world, and I'd argue that that isn't what this tournament was ever about. What WCS succeeded in doing was bringing together the 16 most consistent players throughout the year and making a badass tournament with them. But just doing that even is going to create a very volatile tournament because you don't have lesser players fluking their way in that are just fodder for the favorites. I'm sure they all had the potential to take it (well, the bottom 3-4 had pretty poor chances probably).
It's hard to talk about the best SC2 player when you require that the best player win every tournament, and yet the odds are always against the best player doing just that. The odds have probably always been that way, and I'm not drawing any conclusions about the game being more volatile now because of it. We'll see players go on ridiculous streaks again. If things went slightly differently and Dear won Blizzcon then this topic would probably be very different, and he was certainly very capable of taking it.
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote: So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
Youwhatmate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS. As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
You might also remember a guy named Yellow? Also I find it hilarious that you impy that people will remember sOs longer than Jaedong.
On topic: as I have always said, there is too little micro and macro to differentiate the top players in sc2 sadly.
On November 14 2013 13:18 GinDo wrote: The Dong is the best. He just chokes at final T_T. Nobody makes final 2 as consistently as he does. And after the most recent nerf to Terran, expect a stronger Dong Domination.
If he chokes at the finals, then he is not the best. Not only that, it's not even like he put up a close fight in the finals. He got wrecked by sOs, got 0-4ed by Polt and Bomber, and the only close finals was against Stardust, who he was favored against anyways.
Entirely disagree. Getting to 2nd 5x is far better than getting 1st once and dropping out early 4 other times (generally speaking).
Yes, getting 5 silvers from 5 events attended is better than getting 1 gold from 5 events attended. However, that is not the case with sOs. He also got 2nd place in the Season 1 finals, top 4 at WCS Korea.
Besides, in the end it is all about championships. We remember Boxer for his 2 OSL wins, not his 4 silver finishes. It makes him more impressive, but there is only one way to cement a legacy, and that is to win tournaments.
You might also remember a guy named Yellow?
On topic: as I have always said, there is too little micro and macro to differentiate the top players in sc2 sadly.
There might be too little variety for all players to create their own completely unique and distinguishable styles, but there is no lack of oppurtunity to differentiate yourself in the micro/macro department. Compare the way Dear plays to the way Rain plays, for example, or compare how HerO plays to how Trap plays. The differences - both the stylistic differences and the differences in micro/macro/what have you are there and they are noticeable, though perhaps less so than in Brood War. The two series Dear played vs Maru showcased this pretty well I feel.
I think that in SC2, we will never have such a domination of one\two players compared to SC BW, because, well, SC2 is way too easy.
Don't get me wrong, it's still insanely difficult game, but easy enough that at least 20 top Koreans can handle it.
If WCS finals were to be held the other day, I am pretty sure that we could have very diffferent top 4, with Soulkey, Inno, Dear etc.
These top players are so close to each other in terms of skill, that you'd better toss a coin rather than predict who's gonna take BO5,
Another question is whether it is OK or NOT. For me, it is just fine cause you can never predict thw winner at the highest level, there are more "surprises" and makes the game more fun to watch.
Sure, you're right about the players styles. But I think there isn't enough room to make improvments and play so much better than everyone else that you can win consistently. There are also so many ways to just lose randomly that it is very hard for the very best players to win entire tournaments.
On November 14 2013 17:18 TW wrote: I think that in SC2, we will never have such a domination of one\two players compared to SC BW, because, well, SC2 is way too easy.
Don't get me wrong, it's still insanely difficult game, but easy enough that at least 20 top Koreans can handle it.
If WCS finals were to be held the other day, I am pretty sure that we could have very diffferent top 4, with Soulkey, Inno, Dear etc.
These top players are so close to each other in terms of skill, that you'd better toss a coin rather than predict who's gonna take BO5,
Another question is whether it is OK or NOT. For me, it is just fine cause you can never predict thw winner at the highest level, there are more "surprises" and makes the game more fun to watch.
I've never understood this. Can you point to me a sc2 player who have perfect macro/micro/multitask/decision making? Maybe Mvp was kinda "perfect"@2011, but that wasnt too far from bw dominans, right? There is obviously alot of work to do in sc2, and if someone manages to perfect all of these aspects we could very well get a sc2 bonjwa I'm a total nubtho, please enlighten me
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote: So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
Youwhatmate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS. As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
Soulkey hangs out around the top, like he did in BW; he doesn't have the eye of the tiger, he's no #1 player. Sure, he can win a tournament, of course. His whole style is very controlled and systematic. It doesn't rely on unmatched unit control or tense split-second decision-making. That means it will be very solid but not reach the same heights as the best player on his best day.
On the other hand, Maru has impeccable unit control and aggression. However, his play shows a lack of strategic depth that makes him potentially unstable at the top of the scene. This should at least be recognized, even if it doesn't turn out to be the defining factor of his success.
It's true I wouldn't be explaining my perspective if I felt like there was no evidence I had insights others didn't or there was no reason anyone would listen to me -- is there something wrong with that? Since this is the post-Blizzcon discussion I thought it wouldn't be too controversial to put my thoughts down.
I agree. When i did a prediction for the finals i suprisingly found sOs being a finalist facing Dear from the other side of the bracket. But, frankly speaking, that didn't come from consideration of sOs being the best player in the world. It's just the way brackets were defined.
On November 14 2013 19:13 Shellshock wrote: best terran on that half of the bracket*
Who am I kidding, prime fans are clueless too ~ :D
The best Terrans in the world right now are probably Bomber, Maru and Polt, but in my opinion, the best Terrans of 2013 were Maru, Polt and INnoVation. Guess I'm clueless too.
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote: So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
Youwhatmate? I mean sure sOs won but aside from Mvp, I don't see any player that was completely outmatched at Blizzcon. With favorable draws like the ones sOs got early on, there were at least a few people who were absolutely capable of winning WCS. As a matter of fact, most of your comments on the Blizzcon players seem very subjective - calling Soulkey "consistently good but not #1" is a weird thing to say about the player who's been making finals/semifinals of almost every WCS event he has participated in for the entire year, without any bonus points from weaker regions or weekend tournaments. Only one player can win each tournament - if you don't win, it doesn't automatically mean that you're not good enough to win on another day. Calling Maru - a WCS Korea champion - overrated feels a little far-fetched as well. I mean I guess it's fine to have an opinion but I feel like most of what you're saying you only say because you have the Blizzcon results to back you up.
He's kind of right in some ways though. Naniwa, Hero, aLive, MVP, MC and duckdeok didn't really have a realistic chance of winning the whole thing. sOs had a relatively easy path compared to Jaedong which is pretty interesting. I think Jaedong's losses are mental. I don't question his drive or whatever and completely respect him but it seems in SC2 at least, he can't close them out. sOs played insane though. And everybody completely underrated him. He's been consistently strong in actual games (and we haven't seen many). His eliminations in seasons 2 and 3 were pretty damn close and he loomed threatening at the time to be placing a high finish. I hope he dominates the international scene too - cos clearly he can play well on weekend tournaments... insane clutch factor. And I'm a Terran fanboii....
Very good article! I really feel Dear had the potential to getting the title of the world's best if he had managed to sweep wcs grand finals as well
But then he faced... THE DONG! <3
Also, I don't think a lot of folks appreciate how statistically unlikely it is to become a repeat champion, even if you are much better than the competition!
So we can accept that Innovation was dominating early year, even though he won only one championship, because we can look at the games and see that he won most of them.
But now that Dear hasn't won Blizzcon, he clearly isn't dominating, because... he hasn't won all the championships?
Dear is on the warpath nowadays. If it's really important to have bestplayerintheworld, which to me it's not, I'd say he is right now.
I'm quite fine with not having one guy to crush them all in Starcraft 2 to be quite frank. Most of the time, when it happens that some guy utterly dominates the sport, it becomes boring for the viewers and fans. The global finals were very interesting precisely because I had no idea of who would win it. I'm also fine with people calling a player the best in the world even if it is for a few weeks or months. I don't see the problem with distinguishing a guy who is the "hottest stuff in town" currently.
Dear is the best player in my eyes at the moment, a combination of winning two big tournaments lately and just looking really good while doing so. He barely lost to JD but that happens.
Anyway the formats of sc2 don't allow there to be a clear cut dominant player often. Koreans are the best by far and many of them only show themselves in code S/WCS korea and a few outside tournaments. sOs played fine all year but just lost relatively early in season 2 and 3 with some bad luck. Knockout formats where the individual games are so volatile is just not a great way to find the great players. There is too much variance introduced by the seeding and persons unluckily losing an early match. The best player in a starcraft knockout tournament like sc2 is still quite likely to just lose in the first round since it looks to be the type of game where the skills are close enough that the best player is only favored like 75:25 against the worst in code S. Especially increased by the fact the first games are just bo3. Not even mentioning there are maps which can just screw out a player sometimes, for example I recall sOs getting really bad maps in the OSL for his matchups.
I still can't believe sOs won. I was really hoping Bomber was gonna take this Blizzcon. The article makes a very good point though at least for me, it is a bit strange to not really have anyone who is truly dominant on the scene right now.
None of these players can be judged the best until they show dominsting form for at least another year. I hate to bring up the b word but the bonjwas of bw didnt earn their titles by winning just a couple of tournaments. The only players who have really showed consistent dominating form so far in sc2 are mvp and mc. Maybe with the fractured regional scene we have now in sc2 it will never happen. Still if say sos can say win global finals again next year plus at least three other major tournaments it would be hard to deny him.
dear is the best player right now, sos is creative, JD is consistent, maru had sparks of brilliance and plays the best boxed series, part time polt had a very very strong years, MMA is back, bomber is bomber, innovation was a god at the start of hots and looks now mortal, mvp will not recover this time i feel, soulkey is somehow like JD in top notch zerg play aswell as his chokes, taeja and hero had a decent year aswell but nothing outstanding
there is def no best player this year the title is shared between JD, dear, innovation, maru, soulkey and s0s
This is bad for starcraft, the fact that the game is to volatile for someone to rise above the rest. But its pretty rare for a player to dominate from season to season.
come on TL wtf is wrong with you. it stands on SPOILER FREE. and i see the guy with the trophy in his hand and below who won. What else can't you spoile the score???
On November 14 2013 21:27 matthy wrote: come on TL wtf is wrong with you. it stands on SPOILER FREE. and i see the guy with the trophy in his hand and below who won. What else can't you spoile the score???
Why would you go to the TL front page if you don't want to be spoiled? That's silly
On November 14 2013 21:27 matthy wrote: come on TL wtf is wrong with you. it stands on SPOILER FREE. and i see the guy with the trophy in his hand and below who won. What else can't you spoile the score???
Why would you go to the TL front page if you don't want to be spoiled? That's silly
by acident... but seriosly there is a button Hide Spoilers
On November 14 2013 21:07 Kitaen wrote: dear is the best player right now, sos is creative, JD is consistent, maru had sparks of brilliance and plays the best boxed series, part time polt had a very very strong years, MMA is back, bomber is bomber, innovation was a god at the start of hots and looks now mortal, mvp will not recover this time i feel, soulkey is somehow like JD in top notch zerg play aswell as his chokes, taeja and hero had a decent year aswell but nothing outstanding
there is def no best player this year the title is shared between JD, dear, innovation, maru, soulkey and s0s
God damn I can't get over this damn article. How much the WCG finals end up meaning in the long run is a legit discussion to have I suppose, but with this timing I get the feeling that waxangel simply didn't like the results so he wanted to remind everyone that's it's just for today, nothing to see here, just one day out of 365.
On November 14 2013 21:27 matthy wrote: come on TL wtf is wrong with you. it stands on SPOILER FREE. and i see the guy with the trophy in his hand and below who won. What else can't you spoile the score???
Why would you go to the TL front page if you don't want to be spoiled? That's silly
by acident... but seriosly there is a button Hide Spoilers
Its been almost a week since the finals ended and you are mad because a news site had a post article that had the winner in it not spoilered? How long are they supposed to be spoilered for?
There was never a Best in the World. Sorry it's all smoke and mirrors C.M. Punk.
On November 14 2013 21:57 11cc wrote: God damn I can't get over this damn article. How much the WCG finals end up meaning in the long run is a legit discussion to have I suppose, but with this timing I get the feeling that waxangel simply didn't like the results so he wanted to remind everyone that's it's just for today, nothing to see here, just one day out of 365.
On November 14 2013 21:57 11cc wrote: God damn I can't get over this damn article. How much the WCG finals end up meaning in the long run is a legit discussion to have I suppose, but with this timing I get the feeling that waxangel simply didn't like the results so he wanted to remind everyone that's it's just for today, nothing to see here, just one day out of 365.
He'd be saying the same thing no matter who won.
Since you say it so matter of factly I guess you must know better than me.
On November 14 2013 22:45 StarStruck wrote: There was never a Best in the World. Sorry it's all smoke and mirrors C.M. Punk.
On November 14 2013 21:57 11cc wrote: God damn I can't get over this damn article. How much the WCG finals end up meaning in the long run is a legit discussion to have I suppose, but with this timing I get the feeling that waxangel simply didn't like the results so he wanted to remind everyone that's it's just for today, nothing to see here, just one day out of 365.
He'd be saying the same thing no matter who won.
Since you say it so matter of factly I guess you must know better than me.
The only time I reckon this article wouldn't have been written is if Dear had won. None of the others had a legit claim to being the best pre-Blizzcon, and no one is clear now.
On November 14 2013 21:27 matthy wrote: come on TL wtf is wrong with you. it stands on SPOILER FREE. and i see the guy with the trophy in his hand and below who won. What else can't you spoile the score???
Why would you go to the TL front page if you don't want to be spoiled? That's silly
by acident... but seriosly there is a button Hide Spoilers
Its been almost a week since the finals ended and you are mad because a news site had a post article that had the winner in it not spoilered? How long are they supposed to be spoilered for?
forever ofcourse else you dont know what is spoilered and what not. if you want to see results of something disable the hide spoilers box, or just click on the thing that has the spoilers hidden.
On November 14 2013 15:34 KnowNothing wrote: So, I predicted sOs to win the tournament, and not because he's the best player, because I LOOKED AT THE BRACKETS individually and worked it out, good work Rotterdam.
I wonder why people find the results so shocking. People seem to be way off on their evaluation of so many players:
-Bomber isn't nearly as strong a player as people say. Forget about him. -Soulkey's playstyle has always made him consistently good but not #1 -Innovation is off-form, but will bounce back soon, still, he won't be clear #1 anytime soon -Duckdeok is an opportunist. He just takes whatever shot he's got, his control is good and he's always going to be dangerous. -JD is finally getting it, just has some psychological barriers to get through -Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did. -Maru is overrated, but he obviously will get better -sOs won because of the brackets. R1. He has strong PvP, so he beat Hero. R2. Polt can't handle these tournaments. R3: Bomber overrated. R4. Jaedong choking. -The players I didn't mention had absolutely no chance.
Also, toss is strong right now, whether its just the players or the race itself I can't say. (This coming from a protoss fan)
You'll have to explain your logic right there.
"Dear is the best player in the world, which is exactly why he doesn't feel comfortable when someone is straight up outplaying him like JD did."
So, "He's the best but feels uncomfortable when outplayed".
Outplayed by... ? Someone bad ? How is he the best in the world then ? Someone good ? So maybe this guy is too close or even better and then that title of best in the world doesn't mean that much ?
Bomber being overrated is a joke also. Bomber has been relevant BUT inconsistent. It's some "relevant inconsistency". He would not have had these recent finishes otherwise... What defines Bomber is that he can beat anyone. I can say with no fear "Bomber can beat this dude". I will be more reluctant to say "Bomber WILL beat this dude". (Side note: somehow I love Bomber for that).
So, "He's the best but feels uncomfortable when outplayed".
Outplayed by... ? Someone bad ? How is he the best in the world then ? Someone good ? So maybe this guy is too close or even better and then that title of best in the world doesn't mean that much ?
In every sport, the best players lose sometimes. Michael Jordan never had a season where his Bulls went undefeated. It happens. Everyone has off days, and thats even more true in something like SC2 where mind games and accurate guessing can play a large part in who ultimately wins.
I agree with the OP that I don't think you can sOs is the best, as much as I like him. I would go with either JD or Dear. I think that 5 second place finishes is actually much better than winning one or two tournaments but then failing to, e.g., place in the top 16 of any other tournaments. Dear is definitely the best player if you only take into account results over the past 2 months. You can also make a good case for Soulkey. He's been the most consistent over the course of the year, and at times was in fact the strongest player.
These sort of opinions upset me. To me it feels like the SC2 community is so "platonist" about "the best in the world". It's like you're looking for some kind of absolute truth somewhere. It's like when people say "Innovation's the best player still", don't get me wrong he's my favorite player but what does that mean exactly ?
To me, the best in the world is the player who prevailed in the highest tier tournament (under some conditions of course), there is no truth beyond that as far as being a good player is not a quality that one possesses, but is something that has to be proved in a special competition that is tailored to determine that.
On November 15 2013 00:59 Heat_023 wrote: These sort of opinions upset me. To me it feels like the SC2 community is so "platonist" about "the best in the world". It's like you're looking for some kind of absolute truth somewhere. It's like when people say "Innovation's the best player still", don't get me wrong he's my favorite player but what does that mean exactly ?
To me, the best in the world is the player who prevailed in the highest tier tournament (under some conditions of course), there is no truth beyond that as far as being a good player is not a quality that one possesses, but is something that has to be proved in a special competition that is tailored to determine that.
And they say Philosophy 101 will never come in handy...
Taeja's the best - that a subjective truth I make my own... Now lets play name the philospher!
Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote: Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote: Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?
Jaedong flops in every final even though he looked the strongest in Blizzcon and he was playing terrible in the WCS NA S2 final. Between both WCS season finals, Polt only beat Grubby, he's overrated when talking about the best players in the world.
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote: Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?
Jaedong flops in every final even though he looked the strongest in Blizzcon and he was playing terrible in the WCS NA S2 final. Between both WCS season finals, Polt only beat Grubby, he's overrated when talking about the best players in the world.
I can make a case for every player at Blizzcon being the best in the world if we cherrypick like that
He was the best player in the world on November 9th? No, he was the best player among the ones who he beat on that day, that including JaeDong, Bomber, Polt and Hero. Would he have dominated Dear, Innovation, Maru? It's not a definite yes.
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote: I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote: I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.
JD is the best player results wise atm, despite his lack of wins. That many seconds still counts hugely due to sheer number, no one has got to finals close to as consistently.
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote: I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.
JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.
Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.
Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote: I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.
JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.
Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.
Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?
Oh, so we're actually doing this? Cool, I'll play along.
Jaedong's journey to the finals in WCS Season 2 Finals included convincing wins over Rain, MC, Naniwa and First soO's journey ended aprubtply in the following Season Finals as he lost lost to Maru and Byul, only taking one map in a field similar to the one(s) where Jaedong was able to reach the finals.
In WCS Korea Season 2, soO beat Maru and sOs in Bo1s before falling in the Ro16, beating Parting but losing to Symbol and Soulkey, whereas Jaedong beat Macsed, puCK, Ryung, Oz, Jim and Scarlett before losing to Polt in the finals. That doesn't paint the most impressive picture of soO, does it?
You see, we can always cherry pick series and tournaments to make sure one player looks better or worse. The fact of the matter is that Jaedong has made it to the finals of five big tournaments this year and he's defeated unquestionably good players on the way there each time. Of course Jaedong wouldn't have had as many points had he played in WCS Korea, but I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon anyway. soO on the other hand had one good run in WCS Korea Season 3 but was otherwise fairly mediocre. I won't debate soO being really good, but he's not automatically better than anyone because he plays in the hardest region.
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote: I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.
JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.
JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.
Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.
Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?
Oh, so we're actually doing this? Cool, I'll play along.
Jaedong's journey to the finals in WCS Season 2 Finals included convincing wins over Rain, MC, Naniwa and First soO's journey ended aprubtply in the following Season Finals as he lost lost to Maru and Byul, only taking one map in a field similar to the one(s) where Jaedong was able to reach the finals.
In WCS Korea Season 2, soO beat Maru and sOs in Bo1s before falling in the Ro16, beating Parting but losing to Symbol and Soulkey, whereas Jaedong beat Macsed, puCK, Ryung, Oz, Jim and Scarlett before losing to Polt in the finals. That doesn't paint the most impressive picture of soO, does it?
You see, we can always cherry pick series and tournaments to make sure one player looks better or worse. The fact of the matter is that Jaedong has made it to the finals of five big tournaments this year and he's defeated unquestionably good players on the way there each time. Of course Jaedong wouldn't have had as many points had he played in WCS Korea, but I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon anyway. soO on the other hand had one good run in WCS Korea Season 3 but was otherwise fairly mediocre. I won't debate soO being really good, but he's not automatically better than anyone because he plays in the hardest region.
He wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon, that's just my opinion. He had no clear case over any of these players such as Rain, Trap, SoO, First, Life, Parting, Flash, DRG...
The fact that you don't mention Taeja once here is a little annoying. For a solid 3 months last year he was clearly the best in the world single handily destroying every single eSF player he played. He came close to that again a couple months ago and is still looking in good form now. Also because of the WCS system WCS KR can no longer be the end all determiner for best in the world. Guys like Taeja and JD are easily better than 75% of WCS KR but because they are on foreign teams are in WCS AM. That shouldn't mean they have no right in saying they are the best.
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote: Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?
Jaedong flops in every final even though he looked the strongest in Blizzcon and he was playing terrible in the WCS NA S2 final. Between both WCS season finals, Polt only beat Grubby, he's overrated when talking about the best players in the world.
I can make a case for every player at Blizzcon being the best in the world if we cherrypick like that
I would love to hear your argument for Naniwa Duckdeok MC and MVP. The players in the mix for best in the world are Dear sOs Soulkey JD Maru Bomber Taeja JD Innovation and Polt. Any other player simply doesn't have the resume right now to have any right being in the discussion.
On November 15 2013 00:59 Heat_023 wrote: These sort of opinions upset me. To me it feels like the SC2 community is so "platonist" about "the best in the world". It's like you're looking for some kind of absolute truth somewhere. It's like when people say "Innovation's the best player still", don't get me wrong he's my favorite player but what does that mean exactly ?
To me, the best in the world is the player who prevailed in the highest tier tournament (under some conditions of course), there is no truth beyond that as far as being a good player is not a quality that one possesses, but is something that has to be proved in a special competition that is tailored to determine that.
I'm not sure that the simplest assumption here is that TL posters are platonists, although some may be. You're free to have your own definition of "best player in the world" but I think a more realistic and representative view is that when someone says so and so is the best player in the world they mean that there is a reasonable consensus among informed parties that this player, generally weighting recent results most heavily and based primarily on recent results (weighting premier tournaments the most heavily), is the best player in the world. If asked, most people would say that this consensus best player in the world would be favored against any other player in the world.
Personally I like more objective definitions, with perhaps a hint of subjectivity -- for example, use Elo to establish the presumption of who's the best (assuming you have a large enough pool of games) and then from there assess whether there are any factors that might cause you to say Elo doesn't capture the full picture (a player was sick during a tournament, a player's wins were primarily in small tournaments so people didn't bring their A games, etc.).
for at this exact moment i would give Dear the first place with Jaedong coming second and sOs as 3rd. this is based on the last 2 months. 4th i would place Maru, with a lot of other players coming with the same level.
why dear on 1st place, when he won he won all matchups with 3-0, 3-1 - convincingly, plus he is quite stable in the last 3 big tourneys.
Yea it's too hard to pick a very best player in the world. All these top players are so good they can take series off each other all the time. I think the best we can hope for is picking top 3 of each race, even that is a debate that is hard to agree upon.
This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
One of those years the Patriots were 18-0, then they blew it in the Super Bowl. Dammit!
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
Yeah, and they did. People constantly argue about who was best regardless of who wins in any sport
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
You've got that mixed up. If Starcraft fans were like NFL fans and never disputed which team was best after a championship, then you'd have two sets of fans that completely contradict how fans in any other competitive game/sport actually work in the real world. You must be surrounded by Giants fans or something.
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
You've got that mixed up. If Starcraft fans were like NFL fans and never disputed which team was best after a championship, then you'd have two sets of fans that completely contradict how fans in any other competitive game/sport actually work in the real world. You must be surrounded by Giants fans or something.
I spend a ton of time on NFL and NBA forums, and the consensus that winning a championship means you're the best team is pretty overwhelming. The Heat only narrowly squeaked by the Spurs last season on a 1 in a million fluke play, but if you asked a hundred different NBA fans who the best NBA team was last year, nearly all of them would say the Heat.
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
You've got that mixed up. If Starcraft fans were like NFL fans and never disputed which team was best after a championship, then you'd have two sets of fans that completely contradict how fans in any other competitive game/sport actually work in the real world. You must be surrounded by Giants fans or something.
I spend a ton of time on NFL and NBA forums, and the consensus that winning a championship means you're the best team is pretty overwhelming. The Heat only narrowly squeaked by the Spurs last season on a 1 in a million fluke play, but if you asked a hundred different NBA fans who the best NBA team was last year, nearly all of them would say the Heat.
Thank god Starcraft 2 fans think for themselves then and don't take championships for granted. I don't know how you're going to bash criticizing a championship with the sole argument that sports fans (for whatever reason) don't criticize championships (who do criticize the legitimacy of a championship despite what you say).
On November 16 2013 03:27 mvdunecats wrote: This story reminds me of the NY Giants when they won their last two Super Bowls. Both years, they did not look dominant at all during the regular season, but did just well enough to reach the playoffs. And then they peaked at the right time and played their best football during the playoffs. Both years, they beat a team in the Super Bowl that was arguably "the best team" in the league -- the New England Patriots.
I think it's good for a sport to allow for this possibility, that a player or team can win a championship by getting hot at the right time. People pay attention to sports because of the uncertainty of the outcome.
The difference is, when the Giants won their Superbowls, everyone agreed that they had proven themselves the best team by winning those championships. Whereas if NFL fans were like Starcraft fans, they'd still be insisting that the Patriots were the best because they won more in the regular season.
You've got that mixed up. If Starcraft fans were like NFL fans and never disputed which team was best after a championship, then you'd have two sets of fans that completely contradict how fans in any other competitive game/sport actually work in the real world. You must be surrounded by Giants fans or something.
I spend a ton of time on NFL and NBA forums, and the consensus that winning a championship means you're the best team is pretty overwhelming. The Heat only narrowly squeaked by the Spurs last season on a 1 in a million fluke play, but if you asked a hundred different NBA fans who the best NBA team was last year, nearly all of them would say the Heat.
I'm a huge NBA fan and I've been following heavily for years. The Heat aren't even my favourite team , far from it, but they've reached the Finals three years in a row, winning twice. They've consistently proven they're the best team, although I think this is the year they will fall off.
These best of 3 formats throughout the year contribute to randomness. The game is already fairly random. No series at the highest level should be anything less than a best of 5. The Blizzcon grand finals should have been double elimination as well. If you did that tournament 10 times, you'd get probably 5-6 winners. If you did a double elimination style, you'd probably get 3-4 different winners instead.
On November 16 2013 17:33 KJSharp wrote: These best of 3 formats throughout the year contribute to randomness. The game is already fairly random. No series at the highest level should be anything less than a best of 5. The Blizzcon grand finals should have been double elimination as well. If you did that tournament 10 times, you'd get probably 5-6 winners. If you did a double elimination style, you'd probably get 3-4 different winners instead.
Yeah it is so random that we have the same players over and over again in ro8 and ro4 and sometimes even finals (JD^^). Double elimination is just a hype killer and produces weird finals.
Dear in my eyes definitely has to be a top3 world player these days. dude is just a machine, his standard play is just so damn good, better than Rain was even, Rain in his prime.
I thought he was going to win Blizzcon but he ran into JD (damn that series was epic) who was just rampant and played flawless Zerg... up until he faced sOs of course. Protoss players like sOs feel like the perfect anti-JD players, who will just play with seemingly no pressure or intimidation and just pull out a full gamut of strategies which fuck with exactly how JD has had his success against such strong players... JD usually the the one who initiates making the first aggressive plays and pokes, constantly countering setting up flanking postions, all the while scouting and reading his opponents constantly all game... yet for whatever reason sOs completely threw him off his game... in longer games, simply passively teching (when not randomly cannon rushing and all-in) waiting for JD to make his patented uber tech switches and then using up his free supply and tech to counter that and eventually crush the maxed zerg army. sOs play was really eye opening but it's not like haven't seen this a bit before in Proleague but was surprised to see this play out so successfully in a tournament like this.
As I see it these days the top 3 players has to consist of *currently* Dear, sOs, Jaedong... and right below them Maru and to a lesser extent Soulkey (so consistent just.... sometimes falls so terribly disappointing and lacks certain aspects in his play that I feel a player like Jaedong would be a much scarier opponent to face in any boX). And imo those with the most potential to "dominate" in the near future or next year or so are Maru, Dear, and JD, all due respect to sOs of course, but his play seems a bit too volatile.
Man I dunno what happened to Innoation, he's still definitely hasn't "lost it' dude is a total beast, tears up GSTL like it's nothing but seems to maybe not be in the best mental state. I would never bet on him in a TvT against any top Terran player.
This year feels way more volatile then all the previous ones. We did have periods of short term dominance, and small spurs of random unexpected wins as well, but if you ask anyone about 2011 everybody will say it was the year of Mvp and NesTea, or if you ask someone about 2012 then Life or PartinG will come to mind.
This year was just all over the place, the longest period of domination belonged to Innovation, but that was just too short and too remote. Had Innovation won another 3-4 tournaments spread out trough out the year, or had Soulkey/Jaedong turned his deep tournament runs into more victories, then you could have had a strong case for one or the other being the best of the year, now though all the arguments are flimsy at best.
Is that a good or a bad thing? That's probably a highly subjective matter. In my opinion its a bad thing, I believe that not having a single super consistent, player or set of players win a lot of tournaments during a year, damages the sense of legitimacy of the scene. If it is perceived to be so volatile that, past a certain level, anyone can take series off of anyone, then it feels like the game stops being about skill and it starts being about luck.
And while I firmly believe SC2 is a game of skill, this year has done a very, very poor job of reinforcing my view of it. I would greatly have preferred to have a clear, consistent and dominant player or set of players just like the years past.
Gotta say, hard for me to pick anyone over Jaedong as the "breakout" player in 2013 overall (in SC2). I'm no zerg fan but watching him play is freakin' inspiring.
He's had the kind of success this year (even without the 1st place finishes) that I wish Flash could have achieved more consistency this year (imo in his case too many eggs in the kespa proleague basket...).
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
I think the winningest player this year has won 3 championships. JD has placed top 4 in 7 tournaments, finishing second in five of those. All of said tournaments had top players participating. I'm not necessarily saying that JD is better than Soulkey or some shit, but it's undeniable that he has performed extremely well this year. The SC community has an obsession with gold medals and somehow always looks down on silvers, but there aren't many players that could have placed highly in seven major tournaments in a year, even if they had the chance.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
How about you link to the player with a better 2013 list of results? Instead of just saying X player because they won ONE tournament.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
I think the winningest player this year has won 3 championships. JD has placed top 4 in 7 tournaments, finishing second in five of those. All of said tournaments had top players participating. I'm not necessarily saying that JD is better than Soulkey or some shit, but it's undeniable that he has performed extremely well this year. The SC community has an obsession with gold medals and somehow always looks down on silvers, but there aren't many players that could have placed highly in seven major tournaments in a year, even if they had the chance.
It comes down to the ways you lose. It's not always about winning man and yes many of those players don't get the same chances as your Jaedong's and MC's. More reason to get good individual sponsor or join a team that will fly you practically anywhere.
On November 14 2013 08:57 shid0x wrote: sOs is. You are just jelly wax.
yep. if jd would have won everyone would name him the champ of heaven ... not fair to sos he is best he stays best
Not Wax. I wouldn't either. Heck, I know a few other people who would say otherwise as well. Winning one championship doesn't necessarily make you the best either. This is the era we live in.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
How about you link to the player with a better 2013 list of results? Instead of just saying X player because they won ONE tournament.
Soulkey, WCS KR > WCS AM
I like JD but actually Im quite mad that JD plays WCS AM, he has the skill to go toe-to-toe in KR. hell... its quite dissapointed that one of the "big cheese" of BW is playing far from where the highest level of SC2 is
Is there a reason why he doesnt play KR ? Because of EG ?
This is quite the weird analogy (i hope you guys know about football lol), but its just like Atletico de Madrid winning the UEFA Euro League, its quite the achievement, but that team should be playing the Champions league, where the teams are better
The only thing he dominated was the minds of the community.
75% winrate? Are you serious? That's absolutely unheard of, Flash BW level dominance. You way overestimate the importance of tournaments in this.
Not like they travel to all those tournaments either. It was mostly based on what he was doing in PL and then the WCS KR for that season where he looked dominant. Sometimes these things last a few months. Sometimes one tournament, but it's very difficult to ignore a player's results in PL when it goes on and on and on.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
How about you link to the player with a better 2013 list of results? Instead of just saying X player because they won ONE tournament.
Soulkey, WCS KR > WCS AM
I like JD but actually Im quite mad that JD plays WCS AM, he has the skill to go toe-to-toe in KR. hell... its quite dissapointed that one of the "big cheese" of BW is playing far from where the highest level of SC2 is
Is there a reason why he doesnt play KR ? Because of EG ?
This is quite the weird analogy (i hope you guys know about football lol), but its just like Atletico de Madrid winning the UEFA Euro League, its quite the achievement, but that team should be playing the Champions league, where the teams are better
SK doesn't have better results sorry. Korea is obviously better than Am but your attitude is Korean champ is the best who cares about all the other results which is just stupid.
The only thing he dominated was the minds of the community.
75% winrate? Are you serious? That's absolutely unheard of, Flash BW level dominance. You way overestimate the importance of tournaments in this.
Not like they travel to all those tournaments either. It was mostly based on what he was doing in PL and then the WCS KR for that season where he looked dominant. Sometimes these things last a few months. Sometimes one tournament, but it's very difficult to ignore a player's results in PL when it goes on and on and on.
Exactly, there was no foreign padding and his insane winrate by any standards was against pure korean lineups. There is a reason he captured the mind of the community.
Uhm, isn't this article a bit hasty with concluding that sOs, Dear, JD or Soulkey cannot claim best players? Let's wait another season. Saying a player was dominating 5 months after he started consistently dominating is hindsight, but sOs or Dear might just be getting started, and even more likely JD will rape 2014.
Even then, I think it's for the best that the game has no definitive "best" player. It shows that the game has a deep pool of top class players that are contending at peak levels, which for us provide the best possible matches and the greatest variation in meta. Some people might enjoy having a singular overlord dominating a scene, but I think this is healthier over all.
On November 17 2013 14:16 BeyondCtrL wrote: Uhm, isn't this article a bit hasty with concluding that sOs, Dear, JD or Soulkey cannot claim best players? Let's wait another season. Saying a player was dominating 5 months after he started consistently dominating is hindsight, but sOs or Dear might just be getting started, and even more likely JD will rape 2014.
Even then, I think it's for the best that the game has no definitive "best" player. It shows that the game has a deep pool of top class players that are contending at peak levels, which for us provide the best possible matches and the greatest variation in meta. Some people might enjoy having a singular overlord dominating a scene, but I think this is healthier over all.
Dear, sOs, JD and Soulkey (add Maru, Bomber and whoever on the side) are best players, but there is no best between them.
To be honest, now with Taeja winning his 4th tournament this year, we may have to start adding him into consideration for title of best player of the year. Obviously he isn't there yet, but if he does manage to win DH Winter or GOM Cup or both, he would have quite a lot of strong arguments behind him.
On November 18 2013 19:58 Destructicon wrote: To be honest, now with Taeja winning his 4th tournament this year, we may have to start adding him into consideration for title of best player of the year. Obviously he isn't there yet, but if he does manage to win DH Winter or GOM Cup or both, he would have quite a lot of strong arguments behind him.
There were a lot of players that looked like can dominate this year. However, no one was clearly above everyone else.
In my opinion, the best zerg Jaedong (Soulkey is really good too, however he couldn't show all his potential to be the best player hope next year he will show) the best protoss Dear (sOs was good too, however the word dominance i can bravely use only to Dear) the best terran Bomber (the hardest race to judge a lot of good terrans but on top of everyone else I can only try to put Bomber)
On November 19 2013 08:41 Shaguar2k wrote: The game just need to settle. After LOTV have been out for a few years and there isnt too much balance changes then you will have your throne.
oh you are right. lets wait 5 blizzard years until we ask ourselves who is the best starcraft player...
I would argue that there is a best, but given the current SC2 formats, it's near logistically impossible to tell who it is.
Because 1) SC2 is still relatively volatile; one or two small mistakes can still cause you the game. Even if you don't make mistakes, you can still lose to unexpected cheese/all-ins or build order loss.
2) There are too few tournaments, and even within each tournaments, most of the early stages of the games are only Bo3. Therefore, sample size is too small.
3) Combining the first two facts, you can kinda see that even if there is a dominating player (say, someone with 70%+ winrate), by chance alone, he can simply lose a Bo3. And since there isn't many tournaments, it'll seem like this player "fell off" for awhile, when in reality, it's just by chance that he lost (even the best players won't have 100% winrate)
For example, Dear was actually only one game away from beating Jaedong in Blizzcon final. If you watched that series, you'll see that a few of those games in that series could of went either way. So simply by chance, Dear could of advanced and maybe went all the way to become the champion... then it'll look like Dear would be the "best" player in the world at the moment for winning back to back to back.
Dear IMO is still number 1 but its sad he's not going anywhere right now as far as anyone knows. I'd love to see him at DH or something. Maybe he'll be at the hotsix Cup
On November 14 2013 09:13 Lorch wrote: I say sOs is tbh. I really wanna say jaedong with all my heart, and getting to the finals of 5 top tier tournaments this year surely speaks for him, but he lacks that one championship you somewhat need to call somebody the best. Blizzcon was supposed to be the event that'd crown the one champion of this years wcs, and where parting competed in a tournament that was so full of foreigners, and the thing that used to be WC fucking G, which I would never use as something to decide the best player in the world by, sos won an insanely stacked tournament at blizzcon and to me thats enough to call him the best atm. But starcraft is always changing and given that korean individual leagues are at halt it'll take a while to see whether sos can maintain his position.
@1Dhalism: He basically won season 1 kr (that one game difference doesn't matter much to me, he literally needed to just build a tank 3 out of the 4 he lost) and the season 1 finals + his proleague performance was insane.
sOs hasn't done enough to call him the best in the world. The Dear quote was pretty good though - on that day, sOs definitely played like the best in the world.
But he hasn't shown enough consistency to be called the best in the world. I really hope for him to maintain the elusive "Best Protoss" slot for more than 2 months, and not fall into the shadows like PartinG, Rain, Squirtle, and Genius.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
4 of those weren't open to everyone being considered. There's nothing to say that none of those that are in high contention wouldn't have done equally well given the same number of events he was flown to. It's easy to be considered the best in the world when you're given more opportunity to prove it.
Though I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I think he's one of the best players of this year, personally.
On November 19 2013 09:30 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On November 19 2013 01:54 Grumbels wrote: funny how it's only the eSF terran players that can keep up with kespa players
pfft what about Dear and Trap, they're eSF >_>
He most likely meant original eSF.
I know what he meant, I just had to go there.
Symbol, First, Losira, Hyun, Life, Avenge, and DRG (3rd quarter 2013 only) consistently do fine against most Kespa players. Granted only Life and the Terrans have actually won anything.
WCS did not only fail to deliver the best sc2 player. In the beginning they acknowledged that GSL Code S is the hardest tournament in the world, but said it does not offer equal opportunities for foreigners.
Well... There was one foreigner at the finals who did not pass the round of 32, here is the fun thing, the same foreigner we were used to see in Code S :D
I liked WCS Europe a lot, I prefer GSL and NASL over their respective WCSs though.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
I think the winningest player this year has won 3 championships. JD has placed top 4 in 7 tournaments, finishing second in five of those. All of said tournaments had top players participating. I'm not necessarily saying that JD is better than Soulkey or some shit, but it's undeniable that he has performed extremely well this year. The SC community has an obsession with gold medals and somehow always looks down on silvers, but there aren't many players that could have placed highly in seven major tournaments in a year, even if they had the chance.
Yeah, but look at the actual tournaments and who you're comparing him to. Most of the other contenders for best in the world didn't even have the chance to fly out to every Dreamhack that there was, nor did they play in WCS America. It's doubtful JD would have gotten into WCS KR in the early seasons, since he struggled in Challenger AM, but even though he picked up the pace later, that could have seriously changed his narrative.
Further, look at the caliber of the players he beat while making some of his top 4 runs. Between his 3 Dreamhack placings, JD only actually beat 3 or 4 people who could actually be called anything remotely close to a top tier Korean. I mean, that's not to say beating Taeja wasn't impressive, but it really does bring us back to reality a little bit when counting medal totals to realize how much lower the average skill level was at some of these Dreamhacks. While his performance at WCS Season 2 was great, and his performance at Blizzcon was spectacular, JD got destroyed at WCS Season 3.
My point is that, compared to the other top level Korean players, JD is good but not somehow a level above them, or even close to being a level above them. When you look at how JD fares against indisputably strong Korean players, his dominance is less clear. He's taken down some titans, to be sure, but he's also gotten annihilated in multiple finals. When it's once or twice, we can say it's a fluke, but when, of the 3 finals appearances in WCS JD's made (which all occured within the past 5 months, might I add), he's taken a total of one game, it's pretty hard to construe him as being the best player in the world.
On November 16 2013 21:41 Faruko wrote: I cant believe some of you think that JD is the best player in the world, i just cant believe it...
This is why. No other player has a comparable list of achievements in 2013.
besides the Bliizzcon and GF, not impressed at all, not to mention being second or 3th-4th out of every tournament, JD should be playing WCS KR, not NA, he has the skill for it
Soulkey #1 ONLY PLAYING WCS KR, and sOs, well he won the most important tournament in the world
I think the winningest player this year has won 3 championships. JD has placed top 4 in 7 tournaments, finishing second in five of those. All of said tournaments had top players participating. I'm not necessarily saying that JD is better than Soulkey or some shit, but it's undeniable that he has performed extremely well this year. The SC community has an obsession with gold medals and somehow always looks down on silvers, but there aren't many players that could have placed highly in seven major tournaments in a year, even if they had the chance.
Yeah, but look at the actual tournaments and who you're comparing him to. Most of the other contenders for best in the world didn't even have the chance to fly out to every Dreamhack that there was, nor did they play in WCS America. It's doubtful JD would have gotten into WCS KR in the early seasons, since he struggled in Challenger AM, but even though he picked up the pace later, that could have seriously changed his narrative.
Further, look at the caliber of the players he beat while making some of his top 4 runs. Between his 3 Dreamhack placings, JD only actually beat 3 or 4 people who could actually be called anything remotely close to a top tier Korean. I mean, that's not to say beating Taeja wasn't impressive, but it really does bring us back to reality a little bit when counting medal totals to realize how much lower the average skill level was at some of these Dreamhacks. While his performance at WCS Season 2 was great, and his performance at Blizzcon was spectacular, JD got destroyed at WCS Season 3.
My point is that, compared to the other top level Korean players, JD is good but not somehow a level above them, or even close to being a level above them. When you look at how JD fares against indisputably strong Korean players, his dominance is less clear. He's taken down some titans, to be sure, but he's also gotten annihilated in multiple finals. When it's once or twice, we can say it's a fluke, but when, of the 3 finals appearances in WCS JD's made (which all occured within the past 5 months, might I add), he's taken a total of one game, it's pretty hard to construe him as being the best player in the world.
yes he is not the best in the world that may be true .. but saying that he is not even close to the top tier koreans .. that is so wrong or it was only true in the beginning of the year .. that is like saying that his run on wcs s2 global finals where he dropped only a single map against all kinds of protoss is not impressive(given he lost 4-0 to bomber .. it was fine ..it was the time zerg was having a horrible time against terran) .. he is doing well consistently and he is the only player (aside from maru) who is getting better and better every season .. and what are you saying that his blizzcon run was a fluke where he took out the player considered best in the world just days before with an incredible run over season 3 just days before? where he took out maru considered one of the best terrans with the most consistent result in KR region ? really ? hell even being consistent 2nd places in tournament runs is hard to pull off .. its like saying that since soulkey only won once and almost always gets second places he cannot be considered one of the best in the world ..
I don't think the discussion was ever about who where part of that elite group of top notch players, we already had kind of a clear idea regarding that.
The discussion was always about who was the absolute best, and, this years its nearly impossible to answer that question.
Compared to the past years where we had some clear streaks of domination or prolonged success from players, from which we could draw conclusions on who was the best, this year the only clear domination was Innovation's and it lasted for far too little time that we could crown him best in the world.
While JD is among the elite, I don't think we can call him best in the world, because well, he has so many silvers. The absolutely best in the world is someone you expect to have predominately golds and a few silvers here and there.
So far the best arguments I think can be made for Polt or Taeja. Polt won 3 tournaments, 2 WCS and one MLG, though he has looked kind of mediocre outside those. Taeja has 2 HSC, an ASUS RoG and a DH, unfortunately those aren't quite as prestigious as WCSes, however he has taken part in a lot of WCS tournaments and has looked relatively good in all of those.
I think this discussion not be closed until the end of this year.
Innovation ruled the first season. No one ruled the second. Dear ruled the third season. And a random won the end.
The only one who won local finals and season finals was dear. The other koreans (from korea) who did win the local finals never won the season finals, means they weren't really the best in their local premiere league otherwise they would win the season finals again.
Best player is ? There is none right now. A very best player is for me what Innovation was in season 1. If Blizzard would have repeat the whole season finals of season 1 right after it was finished. Innovation would have won again.
sOs would never win the global finals again if they would repeat it again and again, it would rather be 10 times another random player before sOs would win again.
But more interesting is: Why do we don't have a consistent "best" player? Is it because of patching? Or Torunament design? Or is it just the progamers who aren't that good as we think ?
I have to say that this has been Jaedongs year in many ways. Like everyone knows, hes been on 2nd place for... was it 5 or 6 times this year, so thats the proof of results.
Ive followed his play quite a bit and during this year, he has gone better and better and better, inch by inch hes getting there. His reactions are starting to get more faster and smarter.
A year ago, you could see that JD didnt understand the game well enough to compete at high level but now hes getting there. atm there are still small holes in his play but in short future i believe his ability to read the game will be even higher and he can crush everyone =)
Staying on topic, i can't say jaedong was best player of this year but it's been amazing to watch his evolution, how well hes adapting to sc2. I hope Flash will be able to do the same next year.
On November 20 2013 08:01 Beyond Magic wrote: I have to say that this has been Jaedongs year in many ways. Like everyone knows, hes been on 2nd place for... was it 5 or 6 times this year, so thats the proof of results.
Ive followed his play quite a bit and during this year, he has gone better and better and better, inch by inch hes getting there. His reactions are starting to get more faster and smarter.
A year ago, you could see that JD didnt understand the game well enough to compete at high level but now hes getting there. atm there are still small holes in his play but in short future i believe his ability to read the game will be even higher and he can crush everyone =)
Staying on topic, i can't say jaedong was best player of this year but it's been amazing to watch his evolution, how well hes adapting to sc2. I hope Flash will be able to do the same next year.
i think flash is also getting their but not as far as JD goes
flash is actually still good to be honest and was pretty good at one point(especially MLG winter .. was it ?.. (flash made parting and innovation look like he is beyond their level in the finals)
he may not win championships or get to the finals .. but he is a consistently getting r16 in gsl/osl .. that pretty hard and always get caught up in a group of death(his group in s2 r16 was horrible it was all terrans .. and you know how coinflippy tvt can get) .. he also scored most kills in Proleague which is still not an easy thing to do .. although lately im not sure if he is slumping or just unlucky .. but i get the feeling he is getting there .. maybe its his attitude towards the game that is preventing him ..
EPT
Woongjin_sOs, who snatched the grand final trophy after a long drought of notable tournament finishes? The words of Season 3 champion Dear are appropriate here:![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/blizzcon2013/sosjoy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oIsqA78.png)
