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There is No Best in the World - WCS Aftermath - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
219 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next All
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
November 14 2013 15:54 GMT
#141
I agree with the OP that I don't think you can sOs is the best, as much as I like him. I would go with either JD or Dear. I think that 5 second place finishes is actually much better than winning one or two tournaments but then failing to, e.g., place in the top 16 of any other tournaments. Dear is definitely the best player if you only take into account results over the past 2 months. You can also make a good case for Soulkey. He's been the most consistent over the course of the year, and at times was in fact the strongest player.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
Heat_023
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada160 Posts
November 14 2013 15:59 GMT
#142
These sort of opinions upset me. To me it feels like the SC2 community is so "platonist" about "the best in the world". It's like you're looking for some kind of absolute truth somewhere. It's like when people say "Innovation's the best player still", don't get me wrong he's my favorite player but what does that mean exactly ?

To me, the best in the world is the player who prevailed in the highest tier tournament (under some conditions of course), there is no truth beyond that as far as being a good player is not a quality that one possesses, but is something that has to be proved in a special competition that is tailored to determine that.
twitch.tv/heat023
caznitch
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada645 Posts
November 14 2013 16:18 GMT
#143
On November 15 2013 00:59 Heat_023 wrote:
These sort of opinions upset me. To me it feels like the SC2 community is so "platonist" about "the best in the world". It's like you're looking for some kind of absolute truth somewhere. It's like when people say "Innovation's the best player still", don't get me wrong he's my favorite player but what does that mean exactly ?

To me, the best in the world is the player who prevailed in the highest tier tournament (under some conditions of course), there is no truth beyond that as far as being a good player is not a quality that one possesses, but is something that has to be proved in a special competition that is tailored to determine that.


And they say Philosophy 101 will never come in handy...

Taeja's the best - that a subjective truth I make my own... Now lets play name the philospher!
why?
ANLProbe
Profile Joined October 2013
667 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 17:31:54
November 14 2013 17:30 GMT
#144
Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.
Go TAEJA
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 14 2013 17:33 GMT
#145
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote:
Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.

Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?
AdministratorBreak the chains
ANLProbe
Profile Joined October 2013
667 Posts
November 14 2013 17:37 GMT
#146
On November 15 2013 02:33 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote:
Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.

Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?


Jaedong flops in every final even though he looked the strongest in Blizzcon and he was playing terrible in the WCS NA S2 final. Between both WCS season finals, Polt only beat Grubby, he's overrated when talking about the best players in the world.
Go TAEJA
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 14 2013 18:02 GMT
#147
On November 15 2013 02:37 ANLProbe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 02:33 Zealously wrote:
On November 15 2013 02:30 ANLProbe wrote:
Polt is so overrated, he may have won 2 WCS NAs but even the recent DH Bucharest was way more stacked but because it isn't called WCS and it hasn't got an as high prize pool people will say that that was the weaker tournament. And anyways, Polt doesn't get good results against the Korean Koreans.

Koreans like Jaedong or does he not count either?


Jaedong flops in every final even though he looked the strongest in Blizzcon and he was playing terrible in the WCS NA S2 final. Between both WCS season finals, Polt only beat Grubby, he's overrated when talking about the best players in the world.

I can make a case for every player at Blizzcon being the best in the world if we cherrypick like that
AdministratorBreak the chains
cpower
Profile Joined October 2013
228 Posts
November 14 2013 18:36 GMT
#148
He was the best player in the world on November 9th? No, he was the best player among the ones who he beat on that day, that including JaeDong, Bomber, Polt and Hero. Would he have dominated Dear, Innovation, Maru? It's not a definite yes.
cpower
Profile Joined October 2013
228 Posts
November 14 2013 18:39 GMT
#149
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote:
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.

JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 14 2013 18:45 GMT
#150
On November 15 2013 03:39 cpower wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote:
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.

JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.


I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.
AdministratorBreak the chains
_SpiRaL_
Profile Joined December 2012
Afghanistan1636 Posts
November 14 2013 18:50 GMT
#151
JD is the best player results wise atm, despite his lack of wins. That many seconds still counts hugely due to sheer number, no one has got to finals close to as consistently.
Red and yellow are all I see
algue
Profile Joined July 2011
France1436 Posts
November 14 2013 18:55 GMT
#152
Flash will rise from the ashes !
rly ?
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
November 14 2013 18:56 GMT
#153
The dong being true to number two
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
cpower
Profile Joined October 2013
228 Posts
November 14 2013 19:17 GMT
#154
On November 15 2013 03:45 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 03:39 cpower wrote:
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote:
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.

JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.


I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.


JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.

Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.

Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
November 14 2013 19:28 GMT
#155
On November 15 2013 04:17 cpower wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 03:45 Zealously wrote:
On November 15 2013 03:39 cpower wrote:
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote:
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.

JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.


I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.


JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.

Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.

Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?


Oh, so we're actually doing this? Cool, I'll play along.

Jaedong's journey to the finals in WCS Season 2 Finals included convincing wins over Rain, MC, Naniwa and First
soO's journey ended aprubtply in the following Season Finals as he lost lost to Maru and Byul, only taking one map in a field similar to the one(s) where Jaedong was able to reach the finals.

In WCS Korea Season 2, soO beat Maru and sOs in Bo1s before falling in the Ro16, beating Parting but losing to Symbol and Soulkey, whereas Jaedong beat Macsed, puCK, Ryung, Oz, Jim and Scarlett before losing to Polt in the finals. That doesn't paint the most impressive picture of soO, does it?

You see, we can always cherry pick series and tournaments to make sure one player looks better or worse. The fact of the matter is that Jaedong has made it to the finals of five big tournaments this year and he's defeated unquestionably good players on the way there each time. Of course Jaedong wouldn't have had as many points had he played in WCS Korea, but I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon anyway. soO on the other hand had one good run in WCS Korea Season 3 but was otherwise fairly mediocre. I won't debate soO being really good, but he's not automatically better than anyone because he plays in the hardest region.
AdministratorBreak the chains
renaissanceMAN
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1840 Posts
November 14 2013 19:30 GMT
#156
Great answer to the question everybody was asking. And a great read as well!
On August 15 2013 03:43 Waxangel wrote: no amount of money can replace the enjoyment of being mean to people on the internet
cpower
Profile Joined October 2013
228 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 20:09:46
November 14 2013 19:46 GMT
#157
On November 15 2013 04:28 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2013 04:17 cpower wrote:
On November 15 2013 03:45 Zealously wrote:
On November 15 2013 03:39 cpower wrote:
On November 14 2013 10:53 Provok wrote:
I think Jaedong is the best player at the moment, the most consistant and he's being better day after day. The tournamenet he'll get rid of this curse will be the first of a long list imo.

JaeDong has a chance to be the best NA/EU player, he has no chance to be the best player in the world if he doesnt play in KR GSL.


I don't think this argument holds any merit any more. It's true that all four WCS "finals" were won by players from WCS Korea, but the top players from (America in particular but also Europe to some extent) showed that you don't have to play in one particular region to be among the best. Winning WCS America or Europe alone won't make you a top player, but the fact that most of the players who placed highly in either Europe or America did well against a full playing field indicates that it doesn't really matter what region you play in, in the end.


JaeDongs journey to the semi-final in AM -> beat TheStC, Vibe, Heart, Taeja, Hack, . before falling to Byul.

Now look at soo's journey to the final in KR-> beat YongHwa , Bomber, Super, INnoVation, Parting, Soulkey then fall the Dear.

Similar stories to the previous seasons. Do you really believe Jaedong will earn as many points as he had if he played in KR GSL?


Oh, so we're actually doing this? Cool, I'll play along.

Jaedong's journey to the finals in WCS Season 2 Finals included convincing wins over Rain, MC, Naniwa and First
soO's journey ended aprubtply in the following Season Finals as he lost lost to Maru and Byul, only taking one map in a field similar to the one(s) where Jaedong was able to reach the finals.

In WCS Korea Season 2, soO beat Maru and sOs in Bo1s before falling in the Ro16, beating Parting but losing to Symbol and Soulkey, whereas Jaedong beat Macsed, puCK, Ryung, Oz, Jim and Scarlett before losing to Polt in the finals. That doesn't paint the most impressive picture of soO, does it?

You see, we can always cherry pick series and tournaments to make sure one player looks better or worse. The fact of the matter is that Jaedong has made it to the finals of five big tournaments this year and he's defeated unquestionably good players on the way there each time. Of course Jaedong wouldn't have had as many points had he played in WCS Korea, but I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon anyway. soO on the other hand had one good run in WCS Korea Season 3 but was otherwise fairly mediocre. I won't debate soO being really good, but he's not automatically better than anyone because he plays in the hardest region.


He wouldn't have made it to Blizzcon, that's just my opinion. He had no clear case over any of these players such as Rain, Trap, SoO, First, Life, Parting, Flash, DRG...
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
November 14 2013 19:58 GMT
#158
Let's say that we give Blizzcon WCS points equal to 2x that of the seasonal finals.

In that case we'll end up with the following:

sOs: 9850
Jaedong: 9650
Soulkey: 8250
Maru: 7675
Polt: 7625
Bomber: 7425
Innovation: 7100
Dear: 6750
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
November 14 2013 22:52 GMT
#159
It's clear, as the comments section has shown, that there is no "consensus" best player in the world.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
bourne117
Profile Joined May 2010
United States837 Posts
November 14 2013 22:59 GMT
#160
The fact that you don't mention Taeja once here is a little annoying. For a solid 3 months last year he was clearly the best in the world single handily destroying every single eSF player he played. He came close to that again a couple months ago and is still looking in good form now. Also because of the WCS system WCS KR can no longer be the end all determiner for best in the world. Guys like Taeja and JD are easily better than 75% of WCS KR but because they are on foreign teams are in WCS AM. That shouldn't mean they have no right in saying they are the best.
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