On November 09 2013 07:04 LittLeD wrote: David Kim answered the question about the 'Depth of Micro' video. His answer was that it draws back to the viability of moves, and that it should be easily viable when a 'cool' move is made that gets someone an advantage.
I'm not sure he actually addressed the bugs that were discussed in the video though
I hate this answer by David Kim. I watched BW for around 10 years after I stopped playing it. The awesome micro moves are noticeable to viewers, even ones who have no idea how they're done and stopped playing long before they were discovered. I enjoyed watching such things as Fantasy's vulture micro, Jaedong's mutalisk micro and Leta's wraith micro without knowing the mechanics behind them. It was just that obvious that their micro was much better than their opponent's. It just looked cool.
I would have to agree if this is the actual wording of his answer. Just because the average viewer doesn't (whether that's cant or doesn't want to) understand the mechanical skill required to pull off feat X, it's still easily understandable that the units are doing something 'cool', whether that be incredible micro, or not dying, or mass murdering like vultures vs probes. All of that is easily identifiable by a viewer, even if they don't consciously grasp the finer details.
On November 09 2013 07:00 KeksX wrote: General & Arcade
- Starter edition(F2P) changes: --> All races available --> Custom games available --> Arcade available
Sooo, what's left that's not free to play?
*Ladder *Single player *...
Anything else?
Nope, but thats a pretty big point if you really want to get into competetive starcraft. Ladder will always be where you improve the most as a normal guy, so opening everything else is actually pretty smart imho..
@wo1fwood: Obviously it's not 100% his words, but he literally said that they focus on easy to understand mechanics first. Now that I think of it, I believe(actually quite sure) he said he still wants a balance between hardcore mechanics and "casual" mechanics but are focusing on "casual" mechanics. I'm going to add that in.
Also, on that note: They were also talking about more "visible" skill mechanics. I didn't get anything specific out of it but they mentioned blink micro as well as Spawn Larvae. Does anyone remember what I mean? It was David Kim's balance talk.
A bit boring that the starcraft content for blizzcon is just wcs and a sort of meaningless "we're thinking about it" sc2 panel that lasts 1h. I mean, this is the only chance Blizzard fans have to talk to the developers, why not have David Kim do like 30 more minutes of Q&A?
edit: I could be more excited about WCS I suppose, just that I usually associate blizzcon with the fun panels
On November 09 2013 07:00 KeksX wrote: General & Arcade
- Starter edition(F2P) changes: --> All races available --> Custom games available --> Arcade available
Sooo, what's left that's not free to play?
*Ladder *Single player *...
Anything else?
Nope, but thats a pretty big point if you really want to get into competetive starcraft. Ladder will always be where you improve the most as a normal guy, so opening everything else is actually pretty smart imho..
Oh, yes, I do think it's quite smart, too. Make everything F2P other than a) single player campaign (which people will want to buy on release) and b) Competitive multiplayer, which people usually are quite willing to pay money for, if they are into competitive multiplayer in the first place.
Everyone who doesn't fall into these two categories would not have bought the game just for the custom/arcade games alone, anyways, so might as well make it F2P.
Though I do wonder what kind of plans they have to actually make money from the F2P portion of the game now. Here's to hoping they won't do something really stupid.
On November 09 2013 07:00 KeksX wrote: General & Arcade
- Starter edition(F2P) changes: --> All races available --> Custom games available --> Arcade available
Sooo, what's left that's not free to play?
*Ladder *Single player *...
Anything else?
Nope, but thats a pretty big point if you really want to get into competetive starcraft. Ladder will always be where you improve the most as a normal guy, so opening everything else is actually pretty smart imho..
@wo1fwood: Obviously it's not 100% his words, but he literally said that they focus on easy to understand mechanics first. Now that I think of it, I believe(actually quite sure) he said he still wants a balance between hardcore mechanics and "casual" mechanics but are focusing on "casual" mechanics. I'm going to add that in.
The person that invented the word "casual" should be shot. Apparently these days "casual" is just an euphemism for "not very bright and can't handle any complexity". Every time you bring something up to Blizzard they can handwave it away using that word, it's so meaningless. How is a person that plays the game occasionally and would enjoy mastering micro tricks not a casual player, for instance? Who exactly is Blizzard designing their game for if it's not the people that actually play the game?
On November 09 2013 08:09 paralleluniverse wrote: Was that really it? No new features announced? No in client viewing like Dota 2? Nothing new except new portraits and map editor options? No news about Legacy of the Void?
Very, very underwhelmed.
Making essentially the entire game game free minus campaign and 1v1 ladder is a pretty big deal.
Not really. Making custom and arcade games free isn't that big of a deal, nor does it take much time. What are they doing with their time?
On November 09 2013 07:00 KeksX wrote: General & Arcade
- Starter edition(F2P) changes: --> All races available --> Custom games available --> Arcade available
Sooo, what's left that's not free to play?
*Ladder *Single player *...
Anything else?
Nope, but thats a pretty big point if you really want to get into competetive starcraft. Ladder will always be where you improve the most as a normal guy, so opening everything else is actually pretty smart imho..
@wo1fwood: Obviously it's not 100% his words, but he literally said that they focus on easy to understand mechanics first. Now that I think of it, I believe(actually quite sure) he said he still wants a balance between hardcore mechanics and "casual" mechanics but are focusing on "casual" mechanics. I'm going to add that in.
The person that invented the word "casual" should be shot. Apparently these days "casual" is just an euphemism for "not very bright and can't handle any complexity". Every time you bring something up to Blizzard they can handwave it away using that word, it's so meaningless. How is a person that plays the game occasionally and would enjoy mastering micro tricks not a casual player, for instance? Who exactly is Blizzard designing their game for if it's not the people that actually play the game?
its for everybody. toddlers and grandmas... but discussion about complexity in games doesnt really belong here
On November 09 2013 08:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think I can properly express how much I hate this answer about the micro. It's completely ignorant of how casuals experienced BW. It was way, way easier to understand BW micro.
No it wasn't. Casuals average on the order of around 40 APM (give or take around 1 action every 1.5s) and more often than not do notice half of the things that people on this forum claim they do.
What were you guys expecting them to do? Commit to a complete redesign of a number of core parameters in their game, mid expansion because of a single video from a pro gamer?
Come on. Don't be silly. You were never going to get that kind of reaction. At best, you might see some of those mechanics (siege tank turret and probably a toning down of the autospreading) in LoTV but not any time soon.
No, of course we weren't expecting an entire redesign but we wanted to show them that there were so many micro tricks that can be done within the confines of the Starcraft 2 engine, and that it didn't need to be like BW exactly. But he decides to tell us that it's not really important right now. And you can see, pretty much no one in the community agrees.
On November 09 2013 08:09 paralleluniverse wrote: Was that really it? No new features announced? No in client viewing like Dota 2? Nothing new except new portraits and map editor options? No news about Legacy of the Void?
Very, very underwhelmed.
Making essentially the entire game game free minus campaign and 1v1 ladder is a pretty big deal.
Not really. Making custom and arcade games free isn't that big of a deal, nor does it take much time. What are they doing with their time?
Holding meetings to discuss making custom & arcade free.
I think in reality they're mostly working on Legacy of the Void though, as far as I know David Kim is also in charge of balancing the single player maps. (for multiple difficulties and that sort of thing)
On November 09 2013 08:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think I can properly express how much I hate this answer about the micro. It's completely ignorant of how casuals experienced BW. It was way, way easier to understand BW micro.
No it wasn't. Casuals average on the order of around 40 APM (give or take around 1 action every 1.5s) and more often than not do notice half of the things that people on this forum claim they do.
What were you guys expecting them to do? Commit to a complete redesign of a number of core parameters in their game, mid expansion because of a single video from a pro gamer?
Come on. Don't be silly. You were never going to get that kind of reaction. At best, you might see some of those mechanics (siege tank turret and probably a toning down of the autospreading) in LoTV but not any time soon.
First off...I hope you realize who you are talking to ^^.
And don't you worry, casuals watching BW games have an OBSERVER, or a REPLAY FEATURE which does all the seeing FOR THEM (casuals can't see cool micro? what bullshit) so they don't have to give themselves seisures jumping from screen to screen. This OBSERVER catches all the wonderful, crystal clear action FOR THEM, which they can easily understand because it is not derived from layered mechanics and clutter but THE BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL MECHANICS of the game.
I think what people are upset about is not that Blizzard won't do anything about it (LOTV at all - but of course people would be upset with that too), it's the poor, bullshit wording of the answer. Micro in BW IS clear to see - it occurs at a basic, fundamental level.
On November 09 2013 08:25 Maasked wrote: I'm really hoping for F2P Ladder. Would make the audience huge. campaign can stay paywalled, I would still buy it.
I hope the 1v1 ladder never goes F2P. I would prefer some kind of barrier of entry to prevent too many smurfs and hackers from flooding the 1v1 ladder.
On November 09 2013 07:00 KeksX wrote: General & Arcade
- Starter edition(F2P) changes: --> All races available --> Custom games available --> Arcade available
Sooo, what's left that's not free to play?
*Ladder *Single player *...
Anything else?
Nope, but thats a pretty big point if you really want to get into competetive starcraft. Ladder will always be where you improve the most as a normal guy, so opening everything else is actually pretty smart imho..
@wo1fwood: Obviously it's not 100% his words, but he literally said that they focus on easy to understand mechanics first. Now that I think of it, I believe(actually quite sure) he said he still wants a balance between hardcore mechanics and "casual" mechanics but are focusing on "casual" mechanics. I'm going to add that in.
The person that invented the word "casual" should be shot. Apparently these days "casual" is just an euphemism for "not very bright and can't handle any complexity". Every time you bring something up to Blizzard they can handwave it away using that word, it's so meaningless. How is a person that plays the game occasionally and would enjoy mastering micro tricks not a casual player, for instance? Who exactly is Blizzard designing their game for if it's not the people that actually play the game?
Just so it's clear, I put the word casual in quotes because it's my word here. They didn't say that, David called it "Easy to understand stuff"... Doesn't change the content, but he did not say "casual".
On November 09 2013 08:09 paralleluniverse wrote: Was that really it? No new features announced? No in client viewing like Dota 2? Nothing new except new portraits and map editor options? No news about Legacy of the Void?
Very, very underwhelmed.
Making essentially the entire game game free minus campaign and 1v1 ladder is a pretty big deal.
Not really. Making custom and arcade games free isn't that big of a deal, nor does it take much time. What are they doing with their time?
Holding meetings to discuss making custom & arcade free.
I think in reality they're mostly working on Legacy of the Void though, as far as I know David Kim is also in charge of balancing the single player maps. (for multiple difficulties and that sort of thing)
With many of the SC2 developers also working on LotV at the moment, I think LotV work is progressing at a slowed place right now.
Then again, Blizzard has historically been super slow about releasing even simple features for SC2. Consider how long it took to get all those UI updates for WoL. It's probably gonna take Blizzard an even longer time to release the more complex features like in-client streaming and automated tournaments.
On November 09 2013 08:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think I can properly express how much I hate this answer about the micro. It's completely ignorant of how casuals experienced BW. It was way, way easier to understand BW micro.
No it wasn't. Casuals average on the order of around 40 APM (give or take around 1 action every 1.5s) and more often than not do notice half of the things that people on this forum claim they do.
What were you guys expecting them to do? Commit to a complete redesign of a number of core parameters in their game, mid expansion because of a single video from a pro gamer?
Come on. Don't be silly. You were never going to get that kind of reaction. At best, you might see some of those mechanics (siege tank turret and probably a toning down of the autospreading) in LoTV but not any time soon.
No, of course we weren't expecting an entire redesign but we wanted to show them that there were so many micro tricks that can be done within the confines of the Starcraft 2 engine, and that it didn't need to be like BW exactly. But he decides to tell us that it's not really important right now. And you can see, pretty much no one in the community agrees.
No offence, man, but there are about a million or so players who play SC2 every day and thus far, at most 827 people have posted in the thread covering this. 40,000 have watched it.
Just to put into perspective how few people that is, that is only twice the number who watched "But What About Wayne Brady?" on LAGTv. In other words, in Starcraft terms, it's not particularly popular at all.
Now while I am not saying this is an unimportant point (it is, I was convinced by the video myself - it was very impressive) the echo chamber that is TeamLiquid vastly overestimate their importance to the Starcraft "community". The fact that they took notice of it at all is important. It means they saw the criticism and probably took it on board. They will likely be having discussions in their developer discussions regarding it. However, they design the game. We don't.
As it turns out there are over 120,000 people watching it at the moment. They're obviously doing something right.
The person that invented the word "casual" should be shot. Apparently these days "casual" is just an euphemism for "not very bright and can't handle any complexity".
Casual is a euphemism for the "the people who bring in the money".
EPT
