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On November 07 2013 07:12 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:49 Facultyadjutant wrote:On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent. I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it isMy country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents. I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound. You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents. Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting) The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good). It's an ill informed, poor argument.
American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly.
I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for years
The vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect.
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On November 07 2013 07:10 JustPassingBy wrote:
Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time?
This. And seriously, Husky in the most popular casters ? More than Apollo ? Do you realize that he has the most high-pitched voice of ALL of them by far, which is why I dislike his voice, not him personnally or his casting skills.
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On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
Actually, you are completely wrong, anyone who works in the entertainment industry knows there is a reason why virtually all voice over artists, sports casters, tv presenters or anyone else who is paid to speak to a wide audience have similar voices, because the research says thats what will appeal to the widest audience.
They want neutral accents, deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary. The one dota caster I don't like to listen to, despite the fact hes quite knowledgeable etc is Luminous... why? because his accent and voice falls horribly on my ears. Especially when he, like some SC2 casters, says the following "In the meanwhile", it's just one of many horrible phrasings that I hear casters use that makes me want to scream..... Its "In the mean time" or "meanwhile".
Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less.
Its a tried and tested formula, when Sky Sports first showed the Mosconi Cup the main commentator barely knew what was going on, the secondary commentator was an English 8 ball player with some knowledge about 9 ball, but then they had a third guy, a pro 9 ball player (Usually one of the American players who was currently not particpating in the match) sat with them to explain the details, why not just hire someone who knew what they were talking about? because hardly anyone English played 9 ball at the time, thus no one with the required knowledge, familiar accent and skill/training at holding an audience was available to them.
If I were starting up a new tourney or casting organisation, I would certainly be looking for people with the right skill set and voice as an entertainer to be my play by play guys and even in my colour commentators I would avoid people with high voices and thick accents, even if they were the most knowledgeable person in the world, I'd take the third most knowledgeable every time if he/she sounded better. If you sound like Joe Pasquali but have the knowledge about dota/sc2 that goes even deeper than the top pros....... you aren't getting any work, from anyone, because no one will head what you are saying due to the fact your voice would annoy the crap out of them
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The only thing I can really agree on is that we have a lot of casters with poor enunciation, the accents are actually a positive thing to me, while I am not bothered by the pitch of the voices. Do we really have high pitched casters? Doesn't feel like it to me, they in general seem fairly normal? I mean, would you say Rotterdam, Tod, Day9, Kaelaris, TotalBiscuit, Khaldor, Wolf have high pitches? They are either average or deep.
Anyways, this entire argument is flimsy to begin with, but there's one thing you've forgotten about: The Tasteless factor. Does Dota2 have Tasteless? I thought not! Easy win for SC2, as we have the actual best caster in all of esports.
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Sounds reasonable, and while the accent question is contentious, there is a valid point to this. There are more pleasant accents, brits, aussies and yanks are very pleasant to listen to (in that order).
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I do actually agree with this post. I have issues with Apollo as a caster because I don't think he ever read any books as his vocabulary is lacking. I can't listen to Wolf and Khaldor because the latter has the accent and they both have this weird hype voice whenever something exciting happens. There is also a reason that the most commonly accepted casters are USA & UK based.
I listened to Alz..something and Draskyll commentating The International 3 and regardless of the content of their commentary I found it more pleasant to listen to (and more typical of how I expect commentary to be) than any SC2 casting.
And keep in mind that Artosis still says: "one colossi, two colossus".
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On November 07 2013 07:17 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:10 JustPassingBy wrote:
Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time? This. And seriously, Husky in the most popular casters ? More than Apollo ? Do you realize that he has the most high-pitched voice of ALL of them by far, which is why I dislike his voice, not him personnally or his casting skills.
This is handled in the reddit thread
Summary:
Husky fullfills greatly the other criterias: clarity and a very standard english
Totalbiscuit is the same: Heavy accent but clarity and a very low toned voice.
Which I find completely true.
And personally I have to say: of course there are exceptions, like bruno for example in dota2 taken up in the post.
Look how we reacted to proleague, one of the greatest competition in the worlds, yet we loathed it due to the caster pair.
Same with gsl and moletrap.
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the problem with dota2 casters is that they cast dota 2
you don't see me blogging about it though
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On November 07 2013 07:15 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:54 Master of DalK wrote:
The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent. It's unfair that I can't be a successful public speaker despite my speech impediment! I don't think it works that way. Though as a Dutch speaker I dislike Dutch and German accents, but I love French and Swedish accents.
I have extensive experience with debating, i.e., competitive public speaking. Unfortunately, accents matter a great deal. It's generally teams from top UK, Australian or US universities that win the most prestigious tournaments (in fact, it's quite consistent), and the only "foreigners" to win have eradicated their accents and sound very much like Oxbridge or Ivy league students.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm agreeing with Grumbels, I quoted to continue the thought.
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Ofc you can cherrypick your way through casters and criticize SC2 casters while brushing over the faults of DotA casters. I'm not under the impression that DotA casters are better than SC2 casters, from my very limited experience they're flat out worse.
Next to that, I don't think accents are the real issue. The real issue is vocabulary. Certain casters don't have a big enough vocabulary to speak for 30 minutes and not become utterly repetitive, which is a problem at least for me, and they aren't improving at all. Speaking with a british accent does not detract from the experience, especially if you're flat out good with words like kaelaris and apollo are.
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I far prefer accents over "vanilla american", and I don't like cookie cutter "broadcaster" voices. I do like articulate and audibly legible speech. But of greatest important is knowledgeable and interesting commentary on the game at hand, which is sadly lacking with many casters.
I don't think a comparison with dota2 is revealing in this case.
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On November 07 2013 07:18 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent. Actually, you are completely wrong, anyone who works in the entertainment industry knows there is a reason why virtually all voice over artists, sports casters, tv presenters or anyone else who is paid to speak to a wide audience have similar voices, because the research says thats what will appeal to the widest audience. They want neutral accents, deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary. The one dota caster I don't like to listen to, despite the fact hes quite knowledgeable etc is Luminous... why? because his accent and voice falls horribly on my ears. Especially when he, like some SC2 casters, says the following "In the meanwhile", it's just one of many horrible phrasings that I hear casters use that makes me want to scream..... Its "In the mean time" or "meanwhile". Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less. Its a tried and tested formula, when Sky Sports first showed the Mosconi Cup the main commentator barely knew what was going on, the secondary commentator was an English 8 ball player with some knowledge about 9 ball, but then they had a third guy, a pro 9 ball player (Usually one of the American players who was currently not particpating in the match) sat with them to explain the details, why not just hire someone who knew what they were talking about? because hardly anyone English played 9 ball at the time, thus no one with the required knowledge, familiar accent and skill/training at holding an audience was available to them. If I were starting up a new tourney or casting organisation, I would certainly be looking for people with the right skill set and voice as an entertainer to be my play by play guys and even in my colour commentators I would avoid people with high voices and thick accents, even if they were the most knowledgeable person in the world, I'd take the third most knowledgeable every time if he/she sounded better. If you sound like Joe Pasquali but have the knowledge about dota/sc2 that goes even deeper than the top pros....... you aren't getting any work, from anyone, because no one will head what you are saying due to the fact your voice would annoy the crap out of them
I'm not denying the research showing that a certain voice is most appealing, I'm just arguing that accent/voice type is not the reason behind an SC2 caster not being of the highest level, and my proof of that is Apollo - doesn't fit the mould, but is one of the most popular casters.
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I like many of the current casters in sc2, but there is a reason why seemingly irrelevant things matters greatly and in all industries there are minimum things that are always established. ''Why brands has a common artistic theme to everything?'' ''Why does all sport interviews have the same angle and juxtaposition?'' ''Why do commentators and news casters often wear the same type of clothes?'' And on and on and on The reason of why many things look like they do is not because ''boring conservative attitude'' but many times the opposite; it is years of hard research and experience of how to make it the most enjoyable for the viewers. There are hundreds of reasons put together that culminates in you liking for example a movie: http://imgur.com/a/H1yKwMathematic angles, ratios, depths all crucial: All will til the endtime be used, it does not influence if something is new or bad, but rather if the new or old is bad or good.
I am not sure what this part even means. That there is a tried and true formula to casting that everyone should follow and if you don't you're a bad caster? People keep throwing around things like "all research shows..." "This is what everyone does", etc. but it's important to remember that it is very rare that a research field shows something unanimously (particularly in social sciences) and just because something has worked in classical sports doesn't mean it's good or right or whatever.
I'm just honestly baffled by the post which seems generally unclear and uninformed.
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On November 07 2013 07:16 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:12 Larkin wrote:On November 07 2013 06:49 Facultyadjutant wrote:On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent. I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it isMy country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents. I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound. You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents. Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting) The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good). It's an ill informed, poor argument. American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly. I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for yearsThe vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect.
I don't quite get your point then? If there is no notable difference between American and British english, then how come you mention Apollo and Kaelaris as someone with a heavy accent (this being a bad thing) and people such as Tasteless and Day9 as someone with a neutral accent (this beign a good thing).
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On November 07 2013 07:35 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +I like many of the current casters in sc2, but there is a reason why seemingly irrelevant things matters greatly and in all industries there are minimum things that are always established. ''Why brands has a common artistic theme to everything?'' ''Why does all sport interviews have the same angle and juxtaposition?'' ''Why do commentators and news casters often wear the same type of clothes?'' And on and on and on The reason of why many things look like they do is not because ''boring conservative attitude'' but many times the opposite; it is years of hard research and experience of how to make it the most enjoyable for the viewers. There are hundreds of reasons put together that culminates in you liking for example a movie: http://imgur.com/a/H1yKwMathematic angles, ratios, depths all crucial: All will til the endtime be used, it does not influence if something is new or bad, but rather if the new or old is bad or good. I am not sure what this part even means. That there is a tried and true formula to casting that everyone should follow and if you don't you're a bad caster? People keep throwing around things like "all research shows..." "This is what everyone does", etc. but it's important to remember that it is very rare that a research field shows something unanimously (particularly in social sciences) and just because something has worked in classical sports doesn't mean it's good or right or whatever. I'm just honestly baffled by the post which seems generally unclear and uninformed.
It is more about emphasizing that all industries find standards to adhere to, movies and photography to certain ratios, the entertainment industry like written about above seek for certain criteria as well.
It is a comparison not finding one thing that prove unison.
On November 07 2013 07:35 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 07:16 Facultyadjutant wrote:On November 07 2013 07:12 Larkin wrote:On November 07 2013 06:49 Facultyadjutant wrote:On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent. I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it isMy country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents. I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound. You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents. Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting) The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good). It's an ill informed, poor argument. American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly. I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for yearsThe vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect. I don't quite get your point then? If there is no notable difference between American and British english, then how come you mention Apollo and Kaelaris as someone with a heavy accent (this being a bad thing) and people such as Tasteless and Day9 as someone with a neutral accent (this beign a good thing).
What goes closer to the standard english accent is of course much more lenient than lets say my countries swedishenglish than britishenglsih
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Don't forget dApollo on your list of the most popular casters. He's definitely one of the most loved.
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You seem to have put a lot of work into an extremely flawed and silly argument.
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It is more about emphasizing that all industries find standards to adhere to, movies and photography to certain ratios, the entertainment industry like written about above seek for certain criteria as well.
It is a comparison not finding one thing that prove unison.
I just don't get what you're trying to say here. There are casters who speak in different accents and who are considered to be fantastic, Apollo and Artosis. Both of them can be many of the things you said were terrible. So it seems your argument is skewed from the beginning. Or are you trying to say that in a better world everyone should speak with a deep american voice? Because that's one thing. But I think these things are probably dependent on things very, very different other than trying to find some sort of underlying truth based on physicalities of one sort or the other.
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On November 07 2013 07:38 Facultyadjutant wrote:
What goes closer to the standard english accent is of course much more lenient than lets say my countries swedishenglish than britishenglsih
There's your problem - there is no "standard English accent". There's American accents (and a fuckload of them, compare Boston to Texas etc), Canadian accents (again, compare French Canadian to British Columbia), English (Cornish, London, Geordie, Scouse), Scottish (Highlands, Lowlands), Welsh, Northern Irish, Irish...
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On November 07 2013 07:18 emythrel wrote:
deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary.
Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less.
Um, you mean 'bass' if you're actually talking about a deep-voiced man. Tenors are the guys who can crack a C4 or above and do it without resorting to falsetto. Baritone would be mid-low, but the only higher thing than a tenor is a countertenor, and they're extremely rare.
Also, agreed that content is not necessarily the primary factor in audience appreciation, but the ridiculous emphasis placed on accents in the OP is almost off-putting. Classifying all non-American accents as 'strange' or 'difficult' despite the fact that the American audience isn't the only or even necessarily largest component of SC2 viewing? I can pick out the difference between an American, a Canadian, and someone from the EU equally well, but their accent isn't what breaks it. The repetition of words and/or poor choice of words is what will do it.
For instance, I prefer listening to Grubby and Apollo cast Starcraft compared to ToD and Kaelaris. Why? Both sets have accents (1 EU, 1 UK-ish). I find that Grubby and Apollo together are much less likely to stumble over words and Grubby in particular communicates his pro-level knowledge specifically and with a highly articulate vocabulary. Whereas ToD explains himself less readily; Kaelaris and Apollo are more similar in that they both have verbal 'crutches' that they use occasionally, but I find Apollo again slightly more articulate in his description/analysis.
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EPT
