I find myself in a strange position where I love starcraft so much more than dota2, yet I continously enjoy the dota2 casters more, on the edge of jealously. Do I think there is a big problem?, no, I think sc2 casting is acceptable and enjoyable and keep that in mind as reading: I do not dislike any casting currently; I think however that one can review even the good things in an objective matter. Even if there are no complaints, there might be things we don't see because they are missing rather than being there and irritating.
Is it just the game maybe? Is it the gdstudio?
Why do I find such enjoyment in dota2 casting? I did an attempt to list my personal reasons and try to define them.
I like many of the current casters in sc2, but there is a reason why seemingly irrelevant things matters greatly and in all industries there are minimum things that are always established.
''Why brands has a common artistic theme to everything?'' ''Why does all sport interviews have the same angle and juxtaposition?'' ''Why do commentators and news casters often wear the same type of clothes?''
And on and on and on
The reason of why many things look like they do is not because ''boring conservative attitude'' but many times the opposite; it is years of hard research and experience of how to make it the most enjoyable for the viewers.
There are hundreds of reasons put together that culminates in you liking for example a movie: http://imgur.com/a/H1yKw Mathematic angles, ratios, depths all crucial: All will til the endtime be used, it does not influence if something is new or bad, but rather if the new or old is bad or good.
And in the same way there are fundemental things in casting that takes a good experience to a great one that is always good.
And of course there are exceptions, just like films sometimes brake rules we greatly enjoy taking in player casters.
However we would probably not enjoy even great player casters like polt (which garnered tons of attention) over a great span of time. There is a reason not all of the top casters in bw or sc2 were the best of the best players, but the players to transition were those who fit the casting job.
So what are some of the things a sc2 caster should have?
This is a minimal review, but we *have* to start analyzing this, and dare push out casters who are good for excellent ones that raises the experience drastically. It is to tackle the problems when we don't find anything to complain about regarding the caster, but yet we are receiving a sublime underwhelming experience.
First off of these factors is simple, yet funnily alluding sc2 casters:
1. Starcraft 2 casters in general does not have what great general casters have in the whole sport bussiness:
Low pitched voices, there is an interesting lack of bass voice in starcraft 2 casting with the exception of catzpjamas.
Of course I am not drawing such a great spectrum between kevin knockes heavy heavy bass voice and the very very high pitch of for example moletrap, but starcraft casters in general has quite a high pitched voice *even if ever slightly* which - while one might like the caster per say - is quite bad.
There is of course studies stating high pitch can be of preference, but they are often about attractiveness of the person; but arguably a casters job is not to be attractive, being attractive is the opposite of what a caster should be as it distracts from the players.
A casters job is to give information, and explain, thus it needs to be a voice we trust and we are more likely to be lead by. That might sound strange, especially that casters can of course be wrong at times, but that is irrelevant in where we want a voice we like, and in general we always trust the casters and it is not like we will deny a casters mistake - no matter how deep the voice is.
2. Starcraft 2 casters in general is filled with accents.
Casters of sc2 has a plethora of accents.
Again you and probably many others might love the film: The producers; however there are reasons why it is overall and in general a bad film - http://imgur.com/a/97gdq#0
And just like you might personally enjoy a caster, we need to detract and objectively [http://www.npr.org/2010/11/16/131359561/unfamiliar-accents-turn-off-humans-and-songbirds] look at the casters and question if we are given potentially an exceptional cast, rather then merely a good one.
This is a hidden blindspot, as the audience is international, and many of regions might enjoy a certain accent; but there is value then in looking into voices that then also has a global reach that all can enjoy.
From barely noticable to heavy and thick accents starcraft 2 has an extreme variation.
Who are the most popular casters during the games history?
Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting)
Apollo: yes he is one of the most popular but I want to add that of course there is exceptions where other criteria beyond the voice simply smashes. But we still see a pretty light british accent, that doesn't change the cyllables too much.
of course, not everyone will agree with me, but I do find these to have been the ones who have the broadest appeal in the community, and their following measured in quantity I think shows this.
One of the best examples is funnily enough from korean origin
Chobra, the single greatest thing with last OSL was undoubtably Chobra's incredibly crisp, clear and coherent voice and was incredibly well recieved.
To go back to dota2 and have a look We do see accents
Tobiwan, one of the most popular casters carry an accent + Show Spoiler +
And I leave that up in the air, just like appollos british accent, however I would argue tobiwans aussie accent might stretch or turn cyllables with similar sounds (doing damage from the ''baeck aend'') but does not allude, thicken or change certain cyllables like many accents do.
Also he speaks clear and coherent something sc2 casters always don't do, but more on that in point 3.
But besides bruno there is incredibly heavy use of standard english much to the actual success of thegdstudio
All share an accent free or an accent light experience; we are not distracted by the casters, it is what they say that is the most important; the slightest irritation can distract, and then detract from the experience.
3. Clarity
A combination of all factors above; sc2 casters above all has a big suffering of lack of clear and distinguished voices
and especially the very early axslav is a great example as he suffered greatly from this; where the voice or the mouth isn't clear, you can hear the blockage, like the articulation is muffled.
was very indicative and while I enjoyed his insight, was one of the main reason snm was not well recieved as he very heavily had a muffled speech.
This problem of clarity is one of the greatest things that separate regular casters from premium casters; look at hockey, fotball or whatever - impeccable clarity, you hear everything clearly.
End note
This - while might prove unpopular - was started due to me comparing dota2 casting and sc2 casting and I will also end that way.
Current dota2 casting is
- Clear, no one fumbles the words, no ones words are muffled, it is clear and audible and the casters presence is unobstructed
- No accents, there are barely any accents and those who are light, there is nothing distracting the viewer; the casting is clear and there is nothing distracting from what the caster is conveying.
- Lower pitched voice, the voices of dota2 can be intense and energizing but they remain the sound of control and more than anythingcontrol. There is no doubt of what is happening here, we are not doubting the casters and spend time thinking of their character; we might do when they say something factually wrong, but we don't do it because it *sounds* factually wrong.
And in the end I think Starcraft 2 needs to more than ever objectively look at their casters, both current and up and coming. Just like an audible audience can be the difference between an incredible or simply good event; so can casters voices be the factor in a tournament, and thus I argue that we should look for long term casters whose voices are stripped of distractions - we should not be thinking of the casters personality, we should not be spending an extra second diffusing what word he used - but to let us focus on what is most important of all:
The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it is
My country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents.
I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound.
The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent.
I agree. I've been saying for a long time that the casting is SC2 has a low standard that needs to be raised to bring in more viewers. Being a good caster means more than having game knowledge or being able to get excited and talk a lot. You need to be good on camera and have the right voice and be able to speak clearly. A lot of the casters we have running our events don't meet that basic criteria.
This is pretty stupid. I like different casters for different reasons, none of them being their accents.
Personally, I think casters should focus more on the less obvious aspects of the game (all the smart positioning moves that the players make, all the metagaming that goes on, reactions based on scouting,etc.).
But... I like accents Standard American English voice is boring as hell. Did you ever watch the movie Snatch ? That movie had very very hard accent and it gave it such a unique feeling to it. I love that.
I would agree that we lack bass voice casters. But that's probably because our casters are all pretty young.
On November 07 2013 07:00 DinoMight wrote: This is pretty stupid. I like different casters for different reasons, none of them being their accents.
Personally, I think casters should focus more on the less obvious aspects of the game (all the smart positioning moves that the players make, all the metagaming that goes on, reactions based on scouting,etc.).
Those reasons are not reviewed here it is all about the voice
factual knowledge, entertainment all requires separate articles/reviews !
On November 07 2013 06:54 Master of DalK wrote: The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent.
Not true, this is done VERY often by actors and voice actors alike. With training, you can mold your voice into pretty much anything.
Now, whether or not we want casters to be forced to do this, is a completely different question...
On November 07 2013 06:54 Master of DalK wrote: The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent.
We do all the time, that is why we don't have certain casters anymore like moletrap or snm, what was complained about was their voices over and over again. I think axslav has improved incredibly overtime, and one of the big things he has worked on is his slurring that was very heavy years ago, same with gretorp actually.
Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time?
I’m surprised that Totalbiscuit wasn’t mentioned. For one thing he has an accent (if I’m not horribly mistaken), and for another, he is the one of all the SC2 casters who has talking/speaking down to an art the most. (I mean he maintains a SC2 Team by talking about stuff…)
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it is
My country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents.
I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound.
You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents.
Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting)
The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good).
There is no reason to assume there are many who share the OP's opinion. Personally I couldn't care less about the caster's accent. As for Dota vs Starcraft, BeyondTheSummitTV often have some Asian-sounding guy with less than perfect English as a co-caster, but they seem to still have a lot of viewers anyway. So maybe, just maybe the difference in viewership is due to the games' relative popularity?
Bottom line: it's perfectly reasonable for the OP to call for better voices/accents from casters, but it hardly amounts to anything more than his own preference.
I love how this focuses on two aspects the casters have almost no fucking control over: the pitch of their voice and their accent. Seriously, are we going to do this again.
I do agree with a lot of what your are saying, but I don't think accents are a problem. It's more a point of being understandable and using correct English. Also I don't agree with your list of most popular casters. I believe that casting could be better if they used the format used in many sports. Let casters do the play-by-play and have (ex-)pro-gamers commentate on details and strategies.
On November 07 2013 06:54 Master of DalK wrote: The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent.
It's unfair that I can't be a successful public speaker despite my speech impediment!
I don't think it works that way.
Though as a Dutch speaker I dislike Dutch and German accents, but I love French and Swedish accents.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it is
My country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents.
I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound.
You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents.
Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting)
The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good).
It's an ill informed, poor argument.
American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly.
I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for years
The vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect.
On November 07 2013 07:10 JustPassingBy wrote: Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time?
This. And seriously, Husky in the most popular casters ? More than Apollo ? Do you realize that he has the most high-pitched voice of ALL of them by far, which is why I dislike his voice, not him personnally or his casting skills.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
Actually, you are completely wrong, anyone who works in the entertainment industry knows there is a reason why virtually all voice over artists, sports casters, tv presenters or anyone else who is paid to speak to a wide audience have similar voices, because the research says thats what will appeal to the widest audience.
They want neutral accents, deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary. The one dota caster I don't like to listen to, despite the fact hes quite knowledgeable etc is Luminous... why? because his accent and voice falls horribly on my ears. Especially when he, like some SC2 casters, says the following "In the meanwhile", it's just one of many horrible phrasings that I hear casters use that makes me want to scream..... Its "In the mean time" or "meanwhile".
Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less.
Its a tried and tested formula, when Sky Sports first showed the Mosconi Cup the main commentator barely knew what was going on, the secondary commentator was an English 8 ball player with some knowledge about 9 ball, but then they had a third guy, a pro 9 ball player (Usually one of the American players who was currently not particpating in the match) sat with them to explain the details, why not just hire someone who knew what they were talking about? because hardly anyone English played 9 ball at the time, thus no one with the required knowledge, familiar accent and skill/training at holding an audience was available to them.
If I were starting up a new tourney or casting organisation, I would certainly be looking for people with the right skill set and voice as an entertainer to be my play by play guys and even in my colour commentators I would avoid people with high voices and thick accents, even if they were the most knowledgeable person in the world, I'd take the third most knowledgeable every time if he/she sounded better. If you sound like Joe Pasquali but have the knowledge about dota/sc2 that goes even deeper than the top pros....... you aren't getting any work, from anyone, because no one will head what you are saying due to the fact your voice would annoy the crap out of them
The only thing I can really agree on is that we have a lot of casters with poor enunciation, the accents are actually a positive thing to me, while I am not bothered by the pitch of the voices. Do we really have high pitched casters? Doesn't feel like it to me, they in general seem fairly normal? I mean, would you say Rotterdam, Tod, Day9, Kaelaris, TotalBiscuit, Khaldor, Wolf have high pitches? They are either average or deep.
Anyways, this entire argument is flimsy to begin with, but there's one thing you've forgotten about: The Tasteless factor. Does Dota2 have Tasteless? I thought not! Easy win for SC2, as we have the actual best caster in all of esports.
Sounds reasonable, and while the accent question is contentious, there is a valid point to this. There are more pleasant accents, brits, aussies and yanks are very pleasant to listen to (in that order).
I do actually agree with this post. I have issues with Apollo as a caster because I don't think he ever read any books as his vocabulary is lacking. I can't listen to Wolf and Khaldor because the latter has the accent and they both have this weird hype voice whenever something exciting happens. There is also a reason that the most commonly accepted casters are USA & UK based.
I listened to Alz..something and Draskyll commentating The International 3 and regardless of the content of their commentary I found it more pleasant to listen to (and more typical of how I expect commentary to be) than any SC2 casting.
And keep in mind that Artosis still says: "one colossi, two colossus".
On November 07 2013 07:10 JustPassingBy wrote: Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time?
This. And seriously, Husky in the most popular casters ? More than Apollo ? Do you realize that he has the most high-pitched voice of ALL of them by far, which is why I dislike his voice, not him personnally or his casting skills.
This is handled in the reddit thread
Summary: Husky fullfills greatly the other criterias: clarity and a very standard english Totalbiscuit is the same: Heavy accent but clarity and a very low toned voice.
Which I find completely true.
And personally I have to say: of course there are exceptions, like bruno for example in dota2 taken up in the post.
Look how we reacted to proleague, one of the greatest competition in the worlds, yet we loathed it due to the caster pair.
On November 07 2013 06:54 Master of DalK wrote: The accents thing is very unfair. You can't just get rid of your accent, you can train the way you speak but not your accent. We shouldn't set a barrier for casters just because of their accent.
It's unfair that I can't be a successful public speaker despite my speech impediment!
I don't think it works that way.
Though as a Dutch speaker I dislike Dutch and German accents, but I love French and Swedish accents.
I have extensive experience with debating, i.e., competitive public speaking. Unfortunately, accents matter a great deal. It's generally teams from top UK, Australian or US universities that win the most prestigious tournaments (in fact, it's quite consistent), and the only "foreigners" to win have eradicated their accents and sound very much like Oxbridge or Ivy league students.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm agreeing with Grumbels, I quoted to continue the thought.
Ofc you can cherrypick your way through casters and criticize SC2 casters while brushing over the faults of DotA casters. I'm not under the impression that DotA casters are better than SC2 casters, from my very limited experience they're flat out worse.
Next to that, I don't think accents are the real issue. The real issue is vocabulary. Certain casters don't have a big enough vocabulary to speak for 30 minutes and not become utterly repetitive, which is a problem at least for me, and they aren't improving at all. Speaking with a british accent does not detract from the experience, especially if you're flat out good with words like kaelaris and apollo are.
I far prefer accents over "vanilla american", and I don't like cookie cutter "broadcaster" voices. I do like articulate and audibly legible speech. But of greatest important is knowledgeable and interesting commentary on the game at hand, which is sadly lacking with many casters.
I don't think a comparison with dota2 is revealing in this case.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
Actually, you are completely wrong, anyone who works in the entertainment industry knows there is a reason why virtually all voice over artists, sports casters, tv presenters or anyone else who is paid to speak to a wide audience have similar voices, because the research says thats what will appeal to the widest audience.
They want neutral accents, deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary. The one dota caster I don't like to listen to, despite the fact hes quite knowledgeable etc is Luminous... why? because his accent and voice falls horribly on my ears. Especially when he, like some SC2 casters, says the following "In the meanwhile", it's just one of many horrible phrasings that I hear casters use that makes me want to scream..... Its "In the mean time" or "meanwhile".
Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less.
Its a tried and tested formula, when Sky Sports first showed the Mosconi Cup the main commentator barely knew what was going on, the secondary commentator was an English 8 ball player with some knowledge about 9 ball, but then they had a third guy, a pro 9 ball player (Usually one of the American players who was currently not particpating in the match) sat with them to explain the details, why not just hire someone who knew what they were talking about? because hardly anyone English played 9 ball at the time, thus no one with the required knowledge, familiar accent and skill/training at holding an audience was available to them.
If I were starting up a new tourney or casting organisation, I would certainly be looking for people with the right skill set and voice as an entertainer to be my play by play guys and even in my colour commentators I would avoid people with high voices and thick accents, even if they were the most knowledgeable person in the world, I'd take the third most knowledgeable every time if he/she sounded better. If you sound like Joe Pasquali but have the knowledge about dota/sc2 that goes even deeper than the top pros....... you aren't getting any work, from anyone, because no one will head what you are saying due to the fact your voice would annoy the crap out of them
I'm not denying the research showing that a certain voice is most appealing, I'm just arguing that accent/voice type is not the reason behind an SC2 caster not being of the highest level, and my proof of that is Apollo - doesn't fit the mould, but is one of the most popular casters.
I like many of the current casters in sc2, but there is a reason why seemingly irrelevant things matters greatly and in all industries there are minimum things that are always established.
''Why brands has a common artistic theme to everything?'' ''Why does all sport interviews have the same angle and juxtaposition?'' ''Why do commentators and news casters often wear the same type of clothes?''
And on and on and on
The reason of why many things look like they do is not because ''boring conservative attitude'' but many times the opposite; it is years of hard research and experience of how to make it the most enjoyable for the viewers.
There are hundreds of reasons put together that culminates in you liking for example a movie: http://imgur.com/a/H1yKw Mathematic angles, ratios, depths all crucial: All will til the endtime be used, it does not influence if something is new or bad, but rather if the new or old is bad or good.
I am not sure what this part even means. That there is a tried and true formula to casting that everyone should follow and if you don't you're a bad caster? People keep throwing around things like "all research shows..." "This is what everyone does", etc. but it's important to remember that it is very rare that a research field shows something unanimously (particularly in social sciences) and just because something has worked in classical sports doesn't mean it's good or right or whatever.
I'm just honestly baffled by the post which seems generally unclear and uninformed.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it is
My country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents.
I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound.
You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents.
Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting)
The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good).
It's an ill informed, poor argument.
American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly.
I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for years
The vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect.
I don't quite get your point then? If there is no notable difference between American and British english, then how come you mention Apollo and Kaelaris as someone with a heavy accent (this being a bad thing) and people such as Tasteless and Day9 as someone with a neutral accent (this beign a good thing).
I like many of the current casters in sc2, but there is a reason why seemingly irrelevant things matters greatly and in all industries there are minimum things that are always established.
''Why brands has a common artistic theme to everything?'' ''Why does all sport interviews have the same angle and juxtaposition?'' ''Why do commentators and news casters often wear the same type of clothes?''
And on and on and on
The reason of why many things look like they do is not because ''boring conservative attitude'' but many times the opposite; it is years of hard research and experience of how to make it the most enjoyable for the viewers.
There are hundreds of reasons put together that culminates in you liking for example a movie: http://imgur.com/a/H1yKw Mathematic angles, ratios, depths all crucial: All will til the endtime be used, it does not influence if something is new or bad, but rather if the new or old is bad or good.
I am not sure what this part even means. That there is a tried and true formula to casting that everyone should follow and if you don't you're a bad caster? People keep throwing around things like "all research shows..." "This is what everyone does", etc. but it's important to remember that it is very rare that a research field shows something unanimously (particularly in social sciences) and just because something has worked in classical sports doesn't mean it's good or right or whatever.
I'm just honestly baffled by the post which seems generally unclear and uninformed.
It is more about emphasizing that all industries find standards to adhere to, movies and photography to certain ratios, the entertainment industry like written about above seek for certain criteria as well.
It is a comparison not finding one thing that prove unison.
On November 07 2013 06:44 Larkin wrote: The accent thing is complete bullshit, because it presumes American accents to be the default. Apollo is (rightly) considered to be one of if not the best caster in SC2, because of his expertise, knowledge and ability to be entertaining, not because of his accent.
Besides, if the writer is a Dota 2 fan, what does he think about 2GD?
Pointless, uninformed translation between two different things. There are issues within casts, no doubt about that - but it is, nine times out of ten, because the caster is just not that good. Not to do with the "bass" in their voice or their accent.
I took action of this aswell, but I do see the accents that do prevail are the english accents, 2gd when I listen I do not think carries heavy of an accent? Besides it doesn't assume american is the standard, it assumes english is the standard: which it is
My country like others has a certain sort of swedish being used in nationalbroadcasts as so everyone can understand crystal clear whit the lack of regional accents.
I agree with that there is a reason why all people working in casting jobs of all industries around the world are quite alike in tone, voice and sound.
You're confusing accent and language. Native English speakers are preferred, sure. But he says the best are the more generic American accents.
Tastosis Husky Day9 Geoff Robinson MlgRobin (was extremely applauded for his albeit short casting)
The majority of these are EXTREMELY POLARISING. A lot of people think Tasteless is a bad caster. A lot of people think Day9 is a bad caster. A lot of people don't like Incontrol or Husky. Generally, people like Artosis. And not that many people remember Robin's casting (though it was good).
It's an ill informed, poor argument.
American english / english english - I do not see a large difference, the main point is english, accentless english or more: the english that most people can understand flawlessly.
I do not find them polarizing at all, they have the most support, following and has been the most sought after casters for years
The vocal complaints in threads and forums I see are irrelevant and infactual of the reality, especially in a voice aspect.
I don't quite get your point then? If there is no notable difference between American and British english, then how come you mention Apollo and Kaelaris as someone with a heavy accent (this being a bad thing) and people such as Tasteless and Day9 as someone with a neutral accent (this beign a good thing).
What goes closer to the standard english accent is of course much more lenient than lets say my countries swedishenglish than britishenglsih
It is more about emphasizing that all industries find standards to adhere to, movies and photography to certain ratios, the entertainment industry like written about above seek for certain criteria as well.
It is a comparison not finding one thing that prove unison.
I just don't get what you're trying to say here. There are casters who speak in different accents and who are considered to be fantastic, Apollo and Artosis. Both of them can be many of the things you said were terrible. So it seems your argument is skewed from the beginning. Or are you trying to say that in a better world everyone should speak with a deep american voice? Because that's one thing. But I think these things are probably dependent on things very, very different other than trying to find some sort of underlying truth based on physicalities of one sort or the other.
What goes closer to the standard english accent is of course much more lenient than lets say my countries swedishenglish than britishenglsih
There's your problem - there is no "standard English accent". There's American accents (and a fuckload of them, compare Boston to Texas etc), Canadian accents (again, compare French Canadian to British Columbia), English (Cornish, London, Geordie, Scouse), Scottish (Highlands, Lowlands), Welsh, Northern Irish, Irish...
On November 07 2013 07:18 emythrel wrote: deep voice (alto for girls, tenor for men), good diction and vocabulary etc etc, knowledge of the product or subject matter is considered secondary.
Content is actually secondary to what falls well on the ears of the most people. Thats why most sports have a play by play guy, who does most of the talking and knows how to keep the interest of the widest possible audience, that doesn't need to know all the in depth stuff about the game and then a secondary commentator who has the knowledge, but speaks less.
Um, you mean 'bass' if you're actually talking about a deep-voiced man. Tenors are the guys who can crack a C4 or above and do it without resorting to falsetto. Baritone would be mid-low, but the only higher thing than a tenor is a countertenor, and they're extremely rare.
Also, agreed that content is not necessarily the primary factor in audience appreciation, but the ridiculous emphasis placed on accents in the OP is almost off-putting. Classifying all non-American accents as 'strange' or 'difficult' despite the fact that the American audience isn't the only or even necessarily largest component of SC2 viewing? I can pick out the difference between an American, a Canadian, and someone from the EU equally well, but their accent isn't what breaks it. The repetition of words and/or poor choice of words is what will do it.
For instance, I prefer listening to Grubby and Apollo cast Starcraft compared to ToD and Kaelaris. Why? Both sets have accents (1 EU, 1 UK-ish). I find that Grubby and Apollo together are much less likely to stumble over words and Grubby in particular communicates his pro-level knowledge specifically and with a highly articulate vocabulary. Whereas ToD explains himself less readily; Kaelaris and Apollo are more similar in that they both have verbal 'crutches' that they use occasionally, but I find Apollo again slightly more articulate in his description/analysis.
I also think casters are hugely important, but I have to say the OP is incredibly silly. By your standards, Tasteless is a better caster than Apollo, Rotterdam, Khaldor, etc, which is absolutely ridiculous. There CAN BE casters where their accent is SO heavy that it interferes with casting, like in the case of Kelly when she briefly casted for GOM. And sure, having a particularly pleasing voice can be a nice bonus (I always thought Doa had a very good voice for casting). But really, we should be focused on casters that add (1) excitement and (2) insight with their commentary, not on how low their voice is or what kind of accent they have. This is like the ridiculous posts in the Proleague commentary thread where people were saying that the biggest problem with the Proleague casters is their makeup and what outfits they wear. Because, you know, who needs knowledge and insight when you can stare longingly at casters' eyeliner and stylish shirt, amirite?
On November 07 2013 07:59 Yakikorosu wrote: I also think casters are hugely important, but I have to say the OP is incredibly silly. By your standards, Tasteless is a better caster than Apollo, Rotterdam, Khaldor, etc, which is absolutely ridiculous. There CAN BE casters where their accent is SO heavy that it interferes with casting, like in the case of Kelly when she briefly casted for GOM. And sure, having a particularly pleasing voice can be a nice bonus (I always thought Doa had a very good voice for casting). But really, we should be focused on casters that add (1) excitement and (2) insight with their commentary, not on how low their voice is or what kind of accent they have. This is like the ridiculous posts in the Proleague commentary thread where people were saying that the biggest problem with the Proleague casters is their makeup and what outfits they wear. Because, you know, who needs knowledge and insight when you can stare longingly at casters' eyeliner and stylish shirt, amirite?
We should be focusing on all things of course, but we can't handle them all at one time?
Just like every other industry, people in starcraft who picks casters - up and coming or established - should work out objective criterias for casters. This has already been done in other industries, from hockey to football; remember that the majority of our casters come to their point trough contacts and a general acceptance of the public.
But we have a huge blindspot in those casters we don't know; there is no reason that there aren't better casters out there, an objective view on what makes a caster good and one is to objectively view the voice .
for me the most important thing about a caster if he explains the game very well. The worst caster is my opinion therefore is tasteless. He does not have any idea it seems and does not even talk about the game most of the time.
All though I applaud you for your lengthy efforts, I cannot follow you into the depths of stupidity where you seem to draw your conclusions, cause they seem to stem from personal preference.
This is 100 % correct though, a lot of people are overly critical. It is annoying to have to concentrate on what casters say as opposed to just take it in. Also accents can be trained to go away.
If there are two casters of equal skill in knowledge but one has an heavy accent while the other speaks clear who is going to be most liked?
It's kind of obivous. It's ofcourse about personal preference but more so about the preference of the majority.
Point I am taking home is that a low voice is an aspect that attributes positive to overall speaking quality. Thanks for that! The rest, as other said..... I dunno Kev...
In addition what I said previously, I think Tod is actually incredibly popular as a caster amongst the people who know his casting. The problem is that he is also a professional gamer, so he cannot cast much. So maybe that's why fewer people know him compared to the other full time casters? I would definitely take Tod's commentary over any of the nooblings you mentioned are popular.
Apollo, Kaelaris and ReDeYe - woohoo! And don't you ever try to change! I love their accent and I don't care which it is. English teacher in the company where I work is from Wales. He has gorgeous accent.
So I hope nobody important will listen to OP. Sorry man, I am the most important person in the world(from my point of view :D)
I guess we'll never know until we actually get some people with standard english accents who also happen to be good casters. Maybe technical knowledge is not considered essential in other venues and sports, but in Esports you get ripped to shreds, and rightfully so, if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
Artosis is pretty much the only regular caster without accent who is also good. Seriously, give me ToD over Husky any day, what kills it for me is screaming, overhype, random loud noises during major engagements rather than calmly talking about what is actually happening, "funny" jokes, saying plain dumb shit.
Squat, Artosis has a very noticable accent. You're just thinking of it as not an accent because it's so common in various media outlets to speak east coast US english.
What I think is problematic about this post is that Facultyadjutant seems to believe that there is some sort of objective truth that we can calculate with some form of science. Science just doesn't work that way, particularly if we're doing social sciences. There can be clues, ideas, guesses and so on but to posit that there is a "right" way to cast in the face of the evidence that popular casters have different accents/voices is just deeply flawed.
I actually think the voices are not so much problomatic, rather than the actual passion they have for the game. For a lot of casters who were alright in Broodwar for example, many of them just don't care enough about SC2 and are clearly in it purely to make a living and that saddens me. Casters should be people who love every single iota of the game and do it for the love of the sport/game they're casting, not in it for the money. I don't even need to mention the sort of people I'm talking about, but they're lack of passion makes it really hard to watch them.
On November 07 2013 19:02 Squat wrote: I guess we'll never know until we actually get some people with standard english accents who also happen to be good casters. Maybe technical knowledge is not considered essential in other venues and sports, but in Esports you get ripped to shreds, and rightfully so, if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
Artosis is pretty much the only regular caster without accent who is also good. Seriously, give me ToD over Husky any day, what kills it for me is screaming, overhype, random loud noises during major engagements rather than calmly talking about what is actually happening, "funny" jokes, saying plain dumb shit.
There is no such thing as a "standard English accent". Artosis has a very distinct American accent, so does Tasteless, Husky, inControl and every other caster from the US. Kaelaris, Redeye and Apollo are very British.
On November 07 2013 19:07 Heartland wrote: What I think is problematic about this post is that Facultyadjutant seems to believe that there is some sort of objective truth that we can calculate with some form of science. Science just doesn't work that way, particularly if we're doing social sciences. There can be clues, ideas, guesses and so on but to posit that there is a "right" way to cast in the face of the evidence that popular casters have different accents/voices is just deeply flawed.
Math (science) can find patterns in anything/everything. The question is, does the pattern hold true. You might disagree with some of what is said, but there's a LOT of truth to it. There's a lot of argument about "accents" and it's mostly about semantics: easy to understand > hard to understand.
What the OP describes is almost "caster mechanics". Many casters are popular despite not having "the best mechanics". Popularity doesn't mean they'll continue to be the best for mainstream casting...
I'm also unsure if the OP's resources refer to studies based on ADULT fans/viewers. The eSports fanbase could actually have different preferences.
On November 07 2013 19:07 Heartland wrote: What I think is problematic about this post is that Facultyadjutant seems to believe that there is some sort of objective truth that we can calculate with some form of science. Science just doesn't work that way, particularly if we're doing social sciences. There can be clues, ideas, guesses and so on but to posit that there is a "right" way to cast in the face of the evidence that popular casters have different accents/voices is just deeply flawed.
Math (science) can find patterns in anything/everything. The question is, does the pattern hold true. You might disagree with some of what is said, but there's a LOT of truth to it. There's a lot of argument about "accents" and it's mostly about semantics: easy to understand > hard to understand.
What the OP describes is almost "caster mechanics". Many casters are popular despite not having "the best mechanics". Popularity doesn't mean they'll continue to be the best for mainstream casting...
I'm also unsure if the OP's resources refer to studies based on ADULT fans/viewers. The eSports fanbase could actually have different preferences.
Well, you sort of answered yourself there. Does the pattern hold true? We don't have any evidence to suggest that. If there is some actual research to support these points I'd like to see it and go through it. Otherwise it's just vague talk that should make anyone who's studied scientific methodology and method wary.
On November 07 2013 19:06 Heartland wrote: Squat, Artosis has a very noticable accent. You're just thinking of it as not an accent because it's so common in various media outlets to speak east coast US english.
It's clearly enunciated and doesn't have exaggerated inflections or odd syllables, that's all I care about. East coast american is the easiest accent to listen to generally, I find.
I wish we'd get a guy with a super hardcore indian accent, the shitstorm would be of epic proportions.
There is no such thing as a "standard English accent". Artosis has a very distinct American accent, so does Tasteless, Husky, inControl and every other caster from the US. Kaelaris, Redeye and Apollo are very British.
I may have been a bit opaque, I meant accents without heavy use of colloquialisms, clear pronunciation and no strange syllables or emphasis. I don't care personally, so I'm not too invested in the technical aspect. I just want people who can speak english and understand stracraft, a commodity that seems to be in short supply.
On November 07 2013 19:06 Heartland wrote: Squat, Artosis has a very noticable accent. You're just thinking of it as not an accent because it's so common in various media outlets to speak east coast US english.
It's clearly enunciated and doesn't have exaggerated inflections or odd syllables, that's all I care about. East coast american is the easiest accent to listen to generally, I find.
I wish we'd get a guy with a super hardcore indian accent, the shitstorm would be of epic proportions.
There is no such thing as a "standard English accent". Artosis has a very distinct American accent, so does Tasteless, Husky, inControl and every other caster from the US. Kaelaris, Redeye and Apollo are very British.
I may have been a bit opaque, I meant accents without heavy use of colloquialisms, clear pronunciation and no strange syllables or emphasis. I don't care personally, so I'm not too invested in the technical aspect. I just want people who can speak english and understand stracraft, a commodity that seems to be in short supply.
Back in the days, Klazart had an indian accent, or so I always thought. But nobody really minded though, because even if he had a perfect unaccented English, we wouldn't have been able to understand everything anyways because of how fast he talked.
I agree with some of the stuff you say, but not the accent part. Yes, there are certain casters who are kind of pulled down by their accents. ToD is a great example of that. Most people seem to like his casting, but there is no doubt that his casting would improve if he didn't have such a thick French accent. However, the casters you list aren't popular just because of their accents. I would argue that their accents hardly even matter in why they are so popular. Tastosis have always been popular because they were around during Brood War and were two of the forerunners for eSports and Starcraft II since the game was released. Husky and Day9 are the kind of "fun casters" that get people interested in the game in the first place. Incontrol is the captain of one of the biggest foregin SC2 teams out there, and his casting/persona is also more on the "fun" side. Of course these people are some of the most popular casters out there.
I, for one, am not a fan of American accents. I think it sounds dull and generic. But at the end of the day, it's not the accent that matters, it's how well you speak the language. If a caster can speak flawless English and make themselves understood without needing to stop every other second to translate stuff in their head, then it really doesn't matter if they have an accent or not.
On November 07 2013 19:06 Heartland wrote: Squat, Artosis has a very noticable accent. You're just thinking of it as not an accent because it's so common in various media outlets to speak east coast US english.
It's clearly enunciated and doesn't have exaggerated inflections or odd syllables, that's all I care about. East coast american is the easiest accent to listen to generally, I find.
I wish we'd get a guy with a super hardcore indian accent, the shitstorm would be of epic proportions.
There is no such thing as a "standard English accent". Artosis has a very distinct American accent, so does Tasteless, Husky, inControl and every other caster from the US. Kaelaris, Redeye and Apollo are very British.
I may have been a bit opaque, I meant accents without heavy use of colloquialisms, clear pronunciation and no strange syllables or emphasis. I don't care personally, so I'm not too invested in the technical aspect. I just want people who can speak english and understand stracraft, a commodity that seems to be in short supply.
Back in the days, Klazart had an indian accent, or so I always thought. But nobody really minded though, because even if he had a perfect unaccented English, we wouldn't have been able to understand everything anyways because of how fast he talked.
I always pictured him wearing one of those baseball caps with a fan/propeller thingy on it, and the faster he'd talk the faster it would spin. It never failed to make me chuckle.
On November 07 2013 19:47 Grovbolle wrote: The list of most loved casters is laughable.
By twitter followers, what casting gigs they have, their (supposed) income and general presence in the scene I think the list is valid if one would to do an objective take on it.
You are right about SC2 casters but I'm not exactly sure why do you expect anything to change? This is a small community and recognized casters are very well entrenched by the virtue of their fan-bases. Objective assessments and appealing to possible new fans is of secondary importance compared to pleasing existing audience.
On November 07 2013 19:47 Grovbolle wrote: The list of most loved casters is laughable.
By twitter followers, what casting gigs they have, their (supposed) income and general presence in the scene I think the list is valid if one would to do an objective take on it.
Almost every one of them is not a pure SC2 caster, Husky and TB are professional let's players who also happen to cast starcraft on the side. If anything, it was other games that drew followers to their channels and then they may have watched a few SC2 videos without thinking much about it. Equating subscribers or followers of these channels and casters to SC2 fans is simply incorrect. The comparison is flawed.
If we are to compare with any accuracy, we have to look at people who exclusively cast SC2.
Am I the only one thats surprised that knowledge isn't a part of this "lecture"? I couldn't care less if a caster have a accent if I can hear him clearly. (I had problem with Khaldor when he started but he have improved massively)
The biggest thing is that the caster should talk with passion and interest, not the fake hype we often now get. You should try to improve, listen to Artosis and Tasteless 2years ago, do the same with Apollo and listen again at a recent event. (or even at Blizzcon) The result is pretty damn impressive and mind boggling.
I too watch Dota2 a lot but theres some casters I simply can't listen to and it's most often because of too much yelling or they are utterly wrong 100% of the times and not even entertaining by being so.
Honestly I hope no aspiring caster takes it seriously to completely remove their accent instead of speaking clearly and making RIGHT and good points in a cast.
On November 07 2013 19:47 Grovbolle wrote: The list of most loved casters is laughable.
By twitter followers, what casting gigs they have, their (supposed) income and general presence in the scene I think the list is valid if one would to do an objective take on it.
Heres a survey that was made about a year ago, I hope we'll get one this year as well.
For whatever reason I've always thought that Apollo was Australian... What?
Anyway my take on the whole accents thing is that the caster's accent shouldn't interfere with his clarity and how easily he's able to make himself understood to the audience. As a result I think it greatly differs depending on the listener. For example the thread OP *may* be American and being used to listening to such accents, prefer American casters. On the other hand, a hypothetical Brit with horrible English may not be able to understand such a caster. It all depends on the audience, IMO. I myself am not used to Khaldor's accent and as such prefer listening to Wolf over Khaldor, just based on accents alone.
While I agree pitch is important, it's already been mentioned that it's one aspect casters have no way of changing. People above have made the argument that because it's not something they have control over, it's not fair to judge based on this criteria. However, I personally do not think this should be our way of thinking, we agree that only intelligent people should be world leaders, but since people have no control over their intelligence/oratorical skills for presidential debates, does that mean we don't cast our votes based on these criteria? No. A good pitch makes a good caster and since we want a good caster, we should push for people with good pitches.
Ultimately, other factors are equally important. TobiWan's energy and enthusiasm more than makes up for what shortcomings he may have, and he is thus able to provide great entertainment. OP has brought up a very important idea, we should pay attention to the casters more.
Great OP! I see lot of caster-fans get defensive which just means you're right. Whether or not having to change your voice/accent is difficult/impossible/unfair is irrelevant. Thats how the world is.
This is darvinism + exceptions.
Personally I can't stand Apollos accent, i have nothing against him as a person and i recognize he is a popular caster.
Thinking that accent/voice is irrelevant for people who live by speaking in a microphone is unintelligent and wrong.
On November 07 2013 21:01 Plansix wrote: Lol, because people disagree with you, you must be on the right track. That is some Internet forum logic right there. And people who dislike Apollos just have really bad taste. I personally find his voice and accent to be soothing and slightly intoxicating.
I always chuckle heartily whenever someone tells me I'm an idiot for thinking the world is flat, the sheer amount of derision I encounter tells me that I am most certainly in the right. Flawless reasoning.
I think Apollo and Artosis are the best non-pro player casters by far, and Grubby and Idra the best pro player casters. And none of them have the same accent and delivery. I must be wrong somehow.
I think the biggest difference in casting between sc2 and dota2 is the production value - especially that of the 2GD studio. They add to the game with statistics overlays (like "hero xyz has a winrate of 90% in competitive play if he did this and that by minute 12") and provide very good entertainment and more insight during the breaks whereas in sc2 tournaments, you just see the game played out with the occasional statistic mentioned only by the top-notch casters who actually prepare. In breaks, aside from the occasional really good joke, there's not much happening (if anything at all - see MLG casts where you get a shot of the crowd for 20 minutes +). Dota2 casters seem to have understood that simply showing the game just isn't enough if you want to be really good. The viewer wants to be entertained throughout the entire cast, not just the game itself.
Accents, tone of voice, camera angles? I don't think we're at a point where this really matters.
edit: I wanna clarify that I distinctly remember a Dreamhack tournament that had two extra analysts going over the games, interviewing the winner etc. which was a very good example of how I think major tournaments should be covered. This might even be Dreamhack standard, I don't know. But I also remember how awkward this seemed - I can't exactly pinpoint why.
statistics overlays (like "hero xyz has a winrate of 90% in competitive play if he did this and that by minute 12")
which is easily the most retarded thing since ever
also what ur saying isnt really relevant because dota2 tournament structure is just so different from sc2 tournament structure, you barely have lan tournaments in dota2 when theres one every second week so you dont have that "yeah we buy studio cast allday errday" thing
also what stats you wanna show "TERRAN 60% WIN WHEN BUILDS 15+ WIDOW MINES OMYGOSH!"
statistics overlays (like "hero xyz has a winrate of 90% in competitive play if he did this and that by minute 12")
which is easily the most retarded thing since ever
also what ur saying isnt really relevant because dota2 tournament structure is just so different from sc2 tournament structure, you barely have lan tournaments in dota2 when theres one every second week so you dont have that "yeah we buy studio cast allday errday" thing
also what stats you wanna show "TERRAN 60% WIN WHEN BUILDS 15+ WIDOW MINES OMYGOSH!"
I think it's interesting and it was just an example of what they do. They analyse hero synergies before and during the game, recent results of the teams playing etc etc. I don't quite get that tournament structure sentence of yours. The amount of lan tournaments vs offline tournaments seem to be about the same for dota2 and sc2.
How about "immortal sentry allin has a 58% win rate vs 3 hatch expand on Map younameit" (no idea about hots builds)? Or what about "On average, MC gets his 3rd nexus around 18 minutes in the game on this map. The only players quicker than that are Dear (16:39) and Naniwa (17:54)". There's tons of stuff you could do with this and it provides options for the casters to talk about, analyse the style of players instead of "Artosis, what's your favorite cake?" and other shit we get to hear when there's not much to talk about.
The amount of lan tournaments vs offline tournaments seem to be about the same for dota2 and sc2.
assuming you actually mean something that makes sense at all, no theres about 10 times as many offline tournaments compared to dota2 (and that is with the number of sc2 lans decreasing and the number of dota2 lans heavily increasing as of post ti3)
Still loving insight more than someones voice tone/aacent, everytime I get sweet insight from a pro casting like Tod or MC I'm awestruck by their game understanding, which afaic seems to be way bigger than a caster's game understanding.
On November 07 2013 22:31 Alpino wrote: Still loving insight more than someones voice tone/aacent, everytime I get sweet insight from a pro casting like Tod or MC I'm awestruck by their game understanding, which afaic seems to be way bigger than a caster's game understanding.
the same problem is for dota2 casters tho, sc2 and dota2 casters both have equally mostly no idea what theyre talking about
Are you counting WCS as 10 tournaments? Because otherwise you might wanna check your math. There's 10 times more offline AND online tournaments in sc2 right now. The ratio seems to be about the same to me, tho.
Also not quite sure what it is in my posts that warrants your condescending tone. Might wanna tone that down a notch, I'm not insulting you either.
statistics overlays (like "hero xyz has a winrate of 90% in competitive play if he did this and that by minute 12")
which is easily the most retarded thing since ever
also what ur saying isnt really relevant because dota2 tournament structure is just so different from sc2 tournament structure, you barely have lan tournaments in dota2 when theres one every second week so you dont have that "yeah we buy studio cast allday errday" thing
also what stats you wanna show "TERRAN 60% WIN WHEN BUILDS 15+ WIDOW MINES OMYGOSH!"
I think it's interesting and it was just an example of what they do. They analyse hero synergies before and during the game, recent results of the teams playing etc etc. I don't quite get that tournament structure sentence of yours. The amount of lan tournaments vs offline tournaments seem to be about the same for dota2 and sc2.
How about "immortal sentry allin has a 58% win rate vs 3 hatch expand on Map younameit" (no idea about hots builds)? Or what about "On average, MC gets his 3rd nexus around 18 minutes in the game on this map. The only players quicker than that are Dear (16:39) and Naniwa (17:54)". There's tons of stuff you could do with this and it provides options for the casters to talk about, analyse the style of players instead of "Artosis, what's your favorite cake?" and other shit we get to hear when there's not much to talk about.
I think you have a point. I think was also more common in BW where talk about being undefeated for X amount of games or maps, vs this or that race was more common. But this is really beyond the scope of this thread which seems to have little to debate.
Luminous is my favourite caster in Dota 2 and has great chemistry with Godz and LD while bringing an amazing amount of wit and humour to the cast. I also don't think public opnion of him has been that bad as a lot of people have begun to like him as he has grown on people. Do accents matter?Probably, however they are not the defining factor of what makes a caster popular, only a small fraction. I am also pretty sure Winter is on everyone's list of best casters for Dota 2 yet he has an Asian accent as well, he however, has amazing knowledge.
I can like or hate a caster for a plethora of reasons. Accents can very much turn me off. SNM's casting was a garbled mess you couldn't understand 80% of the time. Winter I don't care for for the same reason. Knowledge is all well and good but being a caster assumes you have some sort of oration skills. If your accent is too thick or you speak in broken English I just can't be bothered with listening, it detracts from the cast for me personally. I shouldn't have to try and decipher what the hell you're trying to say.
People with a terrible sense of humor drive me crazy too. Tobi has never said a single thing which made me even smile so when he tries to make some awful joke and do that fake panic bombing laugh I want to rip my ears off. The same can be said for other caster's "humor" or lack there of.
I don't have a problem with accents in general, as long as you speak English well and don't trip over your words constantly I don't mind it at all. Bruno, 2GD, Apollo, even Lumi I've warmed up some to. They all have accents and I think they're perfectly good casters. Pitch doesn't matter to me as long as its not some shrill voice like nails on a chalk board.
My biggest problem with most casters, in either game, by far is the lack of vocabulary. It's alarming how often most of them use the same word or phrase. Every time I hear "under the cover of XXX", "XXX is doing YYY, BUT XXX doesn't know about YYY's ____, BUT XXX has ____ so maybe he can counter, BUT...", "Caught out", "Rattling their sabre", etc, etc. I want to smash my head into my desk. I believe most casters are living their dream. Being paid to travel, be in the spotlight, and talk about a game they love. To my way of thinking broadening your vocabulary, reviewing your casts to see spots where you keep repeating things and correcting it, and just diction and oratory skills in general is something a professional caster should be working on every day. Its part of honing your craft and keeping your skills up to date. ESPECIALLY if you're the play by play caster who has the help of an analytical caster that's there to know all the ins and outs of the game. The analytical guy's job is to know the meta, know the mechanics, know the inner workings of the game and the minds of the players playing it, the play by play caster's job is to talk purdy. That should involve having a clear speaking voice, not tripping over your words, and not repeating certain words or phrases 20 times per game. Look at real sports casters, you'll never catch the greats doing that.
Ayesee has the absolutely sexiest voice in all of eSports, imo. I thought he was a former ESPN announcer or something when I first jumped into the world of pro Dota.
This is absolute crap and doesn't survive even the most transitory assessment of real sports casters. While this may dominate in the US market, that is not the dominant market for sports in the world.
The dominant sport on this planet is football (the real kind) and if you watch football, there are only two things that are required to be a commentator: excitement for major events and clear speaking. They don't even need to know anything about the game! Watch any coverage of the English Premier League or La Liga and you will see the difference between analysts and the commentators. The difference with SC2 is you are often required to be both at the same time unless you intentionally put yourself out there as a pure commentator ie TotalBiscuit.
Analysts run the gamut but almost always have extensive knowledge of the game either through having played it at the highest level as in Gary Neville or having managed at a high level ie Sven Goren Erikkson. They never dumb down their accents. The Sky Sports analysis couch is currently staffed by Gary Neville who has the thickest Manchester accent you can imagine and Carragher, who is a scouser.
Further, you make the basic mistake of assuming that deepness of voice is authority. Authority comes through the diction of a voice - that is why VasaCast is one of the best casts to listen to even if you can't understand his language because his voice is powerful and forceful. You can have the highest pitched voice in the world and if you speak clearly and capably you will hold plenty of attention.
The only major mistake most casters make is to hesitate over what they are saying but that is also because we have an insanely hostile community who nitpick over everything. Never hesitate. Say the first thing on your mind and run with it. Even if you have the entire of twitch chat calling you a moron, what do they know? They aren't getting paid to do it. They're just couch bound nerds.
On November 07 2013 23:06 OuchyDathurts wrote: I can like or hate a caster for a plethora of reasons. Accents can very much turn me off. SNM's casting was a garbled mess you couldn't understand 80% of the time. Winter I don't care for for the same reason. Knowledge is all well and good but being a caster assumes you have some sort of oration skills. If your accent is too thick or you speak in broken English I just can't be bothered with listening, it detracts from the cast for me personally. I shouldn't have to try and decipher what the hell you're trying to say.
People with a terrible sense of humor drive me crazy too. Tobi has never said a single thing which made me even smile so when he tries to make some awful joke and do that fake panic bombing laugh I want to rip my ears off. The same can be said for other caster's "humor" or lack there of.
I don't have a problem with accents in general, as long as you speak English well and don't trip over your words constantly I don't mind it at all. Bruno, 2GD, Apollo, even Lumi I've warmed up some to. They all have accents and I think they're perfectly good casters. Pitch doesn't matter to me as long as its not some shrill voice like nails on a chalk board.
My biggest problem with most casters, in either game, by far is the lack of vocabulary. It's alarming how often most of them use the same word or phrase. Every time I hear "under the cover of XXX", "XXX is doing YYY, BUT XXX doesn't know about YYY's ____, BUT XXX has ____ so maybe he can counter, BUT...", "Caught out", "Rattling their sabre", etc, etc. I want to smash my head into my desk. I believe most casters are living their dream. Being paid to travel, be in the spotlight, and talk about a game they love. To my way of thinking broadening your vocabulary, reviewing your casts to see spots where you keep repeating things and correcting it, and just diction and oratory skills in general is something a professional caster should be working on every day. Its part of honing your craft and keeping your skills up to date. ESPECIALLY if you're the play by play caster who has the help of an analytical caster that's there to know all the ins and outs of the game. The analytical guy's job is to know the meta, know the mechanics, know the inner workings of the game and the minds of the players playing it, the play by play caster's job is to talk purdy. That should involve having a clear speaking voice, not tripping over your words, and not repeating certain words or phrases 20 times per game. Look at real sports casters, you'll never catch the greats doing that.
Well, the talent pool for casters consists of introverted kids that play video games 24/7, never read books, and have difficulty thinking of synonyms for the words gay and rape. Can't expect too much.
On November 07 2013 07:10 JustPassingBy wrote: Regardless whether the accent thing is true or not, the casters you claim are popular all had a head start in casting sc2 compared to the casters you claim are not that popular. How can you guarantee that they are less popular due to accent rather than that they were at the right place, at the right time?
This. And seriously, Husky in the most popular casters ? More than Apollo ? Do you realize that he has the most high-pitched voice of ALL of them by far, which is why I dislike his voice, not him personnally or his casting skills.
This is handled in the reddit thread
Summary: Husky fullfills greatly the other criterias: clarity and a very standard english Totalbiscuit is the same: Heavy accent but clarity and a very low toned voice.
Which I find completely true.
And personally I have to say: of course there are exceptions, like bruno for example in dota2 taken up in the post.
Look how we reacted to proleague, one of the greatest competition in the worlds, yet we loathed it due to the caster pair.
Same with gsl and moletrap.
Just speaking as someone who actually has to speak in competitive debating, Husky is without a doubt one of the weakest voices in the SC2 scene. Husky has a scratchy voice and speaks far too fast all the time.
In order of tone the top three are TotalBiscuit, Vasa and Tasteless.
TB and Vasa have the best diction in the community by quite some distance where Vasa has a marvellous Italian habit of rolling his words for emphasis and TB has incredible bass emphasis on words he wants you to actually listen to. Tasteless is just all round superb at public speaking.
The best analytical caster in the scene by far is of course Apollo, followed by Artosis. Apollo is only let down by his vocabulary and he sometimes has a tendency to raise the pitch of his voice at the end of sentences which is a bad speaking habit. Artosis is the ideal analyst for a duo but isn't as quick on his feet as Apollo is.
Grubby still has too much pro-gamer blood in him to simplify what is going on for the lay audience (this is HUGELY important as a caster) or bother to explain his reasoning but he is learning.
Idra will never get there - far too arrogant and a terrible speaker. No future for him there - much better as an analyst.
Day9 is pretty good all round but has an annoying habit of speaking without moving his tongue when he's not solo casting which is self defeating. He is definitely the best solo caster in the scene however.
Incontrol is also similar but fits a different niche - I would feel robbed if Incontrol was solo casting because a lot of the interest in his casting comes from his dead pan sense of humour.
Klhaldor and Wolf are seriously underrated. Though Khaldor has that Day9 thing of raising his voice when he's excited, he's also really quick to note what is going on and Wolf provides a kind of aural backdrop which works very well.
Got nothing to do with accents and everything to do with the manner in which they speak.
For me , the things that turn me off from certain casters are :
1- Lack of advanced knowledge 2- Stuttering , or average command of the english language. (whatever accent ) 3- Too much off-topic bullshit
I'm not annoyed by any kind of voice , as long as the shit I mentioned doesn't accrue ( or almost doesnt) , I can tolerate anything , a great example would be my favorite youtube caster StoneBreakKid , he is a Wc3 caster....and his voice is annoying as FUCK ! but his insight into the game is top class , the flow of his casts are very entertaining , and he rarely goes off what is on the screen , he focuses on the game of Wc3 , not his life story ( LAG TV is an exception to this , they aren't meant to be taken as serious casters , and that is why we love them ! ).
When I look at E-sports casting , my favorite caster of all time has to be BreakyCPK ( HonCast ) , he has it all , amazing voice , excellent command of the english language , excellent game knowledge , the ability to interact with any co-host or other caster in a very professional manner , can create a very entertaining flow to the cast and he has a charismatic character , I haven't seen anyone near his casting skill in SC2 yet.
One thing I would like to add , and this is my personal opinion , is that game knowledge is what produces the best casts , I wish we had more analytical casters who are either top level players (on the global scale) or ex-pros , I know we have a few in SC2 but I'll make an example from other games , take Grubby's WC3 casts on youtube , even after playing the game for 10 years , that kind of game knowledge and analytics made me shit my pants , hands down the best WC3 casts out there , in those videos he didn't scream out of excitement or anything , it was just pure mind blogging game knowledge.
Another example that actually includes the modern requirements of casting , I'd say the combination of BreakyCPK and Tralfamadore ( HonCast) , I like to call that the golden age of HonCast , those 2 didn't just bring in exciting games and EXCELLENT casts , but they impacted the game itself , along with everything I said about Breaky , Tralf brought a whole new level of game knowledge to the table , it was expected since he was a HoN pro , his analysis was a huge mind fuck to everyone who watched , very easy to follow through , while breaky controlled the flow of the cast , tralf would drop the knowledge , tralf was so good at what he did , I could swear he single handedly made HoN a better game , and the reason was that low level players like me finally found a mentor like personality they can listen to , not only to enjoy the cast itself , but to improve their game.....SC2 needs more people like this.
On November 07 2013 23:06 OuchyDathurts wrote: I can like or hate a caster for a plethora of reasons. Accents can very much turn me off. SNM's casting was a garbled mess you couldn't understand 80% of the time. Winter I don't care for for the same reason. Knowledge is all well and good but being a caster assumes you have some sort of oration skills. If your accent is too thick or you speak in broken English I just can't be bothered with listening, it detracts from the cast for me personally. I shouldn't have to try and decipher what the hell you're trying to say.
People with a terrible sense of humor drive me crazy too. Tobi has never said a single thing which made me even smile so when he tries to make some awful joke and do that fake panic bombing laugh I want to rip my ears off. The same can be said for other caster's "humor" or lack there of.
I don't have a problem with accents in general, as long as you speak English well and don't trip over your words constantly I don't mind it at all. Bruno, 2GD, Apollo, even Lumi I've warmed up some to. They all have accents and I think they're perfectly good casters. Pitch doesn't matter to me as long as its not some shrill voice like nails on a chalk board.
My biggest problem with most casters, in either game, by far is the lack of vocabulary. It's alarming how often most of them use the same word or phrase. Every time I hear "under the cover of XXX", "XXX is doing YYY, BUT XXX doesn't know about YYY's ____, BUT XXX has ____ so maybe he can counter, BUT...", "Caught out", "Rattling their sabre", etc, etc. I want to smash my head into my desk. I believe most casters are living their dream. Being paid to travel, be in the spotlight, and talk about a game they love. To my way of thinking broadening your vocabulary, reviewing your casts to see spots where you keep repeating things and correcting it, and just diction and oratory skills in general is something a professional caster should be working on every day. Its part of honing your craft and keeping your skills up to date. ESPECIALLY if you're the play by play caster who has the help of an analytical caster that's there to know all the ins and outs of the game. The analytical guy's job is to know the meta, know the mechanics, know the inner workings of the game and the minds of the players playing it, the play by play caster's job is to talk purdy. That should involve having a clear speaking voice, not tripping over your words, and not repeating certain words or phrases 20 times per game. Look at real sports casters, you'll never catch the greats doing that.
Well, the talent pool for casters consists of introverted kids that play video games 24/7, never read books, and have difficulty thinking of synonyms for the words gay and rape. Can't expect too much.
If your cashing a check to do it one would assume you're going to put in the work to do a competent job. Many jobs come with some sort of upkeep of skills that is implied with the line of work. You could just as easily say the talent pool for construction workers consists of washed up high school football players and drunks but you still have to keep up with code changes and new methods. The talent pool of IT workers consists of dorks and shutins but you still have to get new certifications to keep up with the times and changes in technology. Certain things are just part and parcel with the job, being a public speaker broadcasting to the entire world sort of comes with a the implied ability to be a master of the language. I don't see a single esports caster that's on the level of an Al Michaels who is a legend in American sportscasting. Maybe it's just me but if I was casting that's sure as hell what I'd be striving for. It's sort of like seeing a UFC fighter who's just a tub of shit. Bro, your job is to work out, have some respect for the game! A caster's job is to speak, and most of those problems can be fixed if the effort is put in. ESPECIALLY if its your dream job, you should be looking to absolutely murder it.
Incidentally if you are a caster and reading this nonsense thread, what you need to do to improve is the following:
1. Read up on authoritative voices, then listen back to your own casts.
One of the more basic ways to emphasize words is to change the pitch of your voice for that word alone and to speak more slowly. The end of a sentence should be lower in pitch unless it is an explicit question.
Again, I refer to TotalBiscuit for the perfect example of how to do this. If you listen to his latest video you hear this:
"LADIES AND GENTLEMAN this name is TOTALBISCUIT and i'm here to ask wtf is call of duty EXTINCTION MOde"
Where the caps denote an increase in pitch or volume. I suspect it is so ingrained into his speaking pattern he doesn't even realise he's doing it but it's become a passive thing and he is very good at it.
2. Kill off annoying vocal habits. A few that are prevalent within the Starcraft community are as follows: A: Unnecessary sentence fluffing
"We do see" "I do feel" "And I'm not sure but I think" "not quite as"
Artosis, Apollo, hi. This is you. This comes about because silence is deadly and it is a radio casters prerogative. While you are effectively a radio caster in that you aren't visible at the time, you are not radio casters. There is nothing wrong with a brief period of silence in an audio-visual medium. There is plenty going on thanks to the observer without you padding out every sentence with five unnecessary words. We do see is a method of providing mental chatter to cover a silence while you are thinking. Instead, use "it looks like" or "we see - pardon, now we see" in the case of a mistake. It increases the authority within your speaking.
If the people who are telling you how to cast are telling you the opposite, tell them to stfu and that they have no idea what they are talking about. Korean casters in particular never shut up, but that's their culture. English native speakers do not scrabble and shout over their words. Brief periods of silence are golden in the English language for providing emphasis and space to think. English is a very nuanced, information dense language. Keep that in mind.
B: Sudden losses of excitement mid sentence
Khaldor, if you're reading this, you're the worst for this but not the only one. When you are excited and commentating something that is happening that is definitely going to decide the game and then it STOPS, you sometimes a begging tone where you sound like a disappointed child.
Instead, try to kill your excitement dead within a word or two and then admit your misread in a more authoritative tone. You never want to be sounding like you are begging while doing public speaking.
C: Um, ah, and
First thing. Um and ah should be squashed like cockroaches. Kill them off. They are symptoms of the same fear of silence that causes "we do see". Get rid of them.
Secondly, never be afraid to finish a sentence dead. AAAAAAND just makes the whole thing into one gigantic run on sentence. About half of English casters do this. Again, listen to TotalBiscuit and Tasteless on how to nail a sentence as well as when to make one a run on sentence. They are both extremely good at it.
The accent is not important, i really like Khaldor even with his accent and I didn't like moletrap with no strong accent.
So yeah a caster success is a mix of all of the things you talk about and the most successfull are usually the best in it.
What i think lacks in most WCS casts and SC2 in general, is more statistics.
For instance if MVP is playing MC, i want to know: -how many times they faced -who won more and % -finals lost? semis? quarters? etc.. -Are they good friends? or are they rivals? -did they trashtalk before? etc..
these will bring more to the game then just "PROTOSS SPAWNING ON THE UPPER LEFT and TERRAN NOW SPAWNING ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT!"
The real problem is that none of the casters have a passion for the game anymore. Not even hearthtosis seems to care anymore....Listening to apollo fake excitment and try to hype stupid shit is probly the most annoying thing of all especially when he makes the big wide eye stupid grin face. I think too many casters got burned by sc2 as far as job stability and money is concerned and they are simply continueing to cast begrudgingly.
I dont watch dota 2 because moba games are terrible IMO so I wouldnt know anything about the casters nor am I in the least bit interested to find out.
I think people who are posting here do not realize that TL users only reflect a small portion of the potential eSport spectator pool. Sure we (including me) are looking for insight when tuning in to a cast, but does that also apply for the majority of the target audience?
Let me give you my experience of watching Starcraft.
A couple years ago I started watching Starcraft. I believe one of the first games I watched was MC's PvT carrier rush that won him a tournament, can't remember which one now. Back then I knew basically nothing about starcraft. I was confused when casters said '1-1 is halfway done' because I had no idea what the 2 ones referred to. I only realized they were talking about the attack and armor upgrades when a caster explained 2-2 one day: 2 attack and 2 armor. I also did not know that 'rax' referred to the bar-'RACKS' and that bugged me for a long time until it suddenly clicked. You wouldn't have such a problem if you were watching sport on the television, it becomes very clear what the commentators are talking about 5 minutes into tuning in for the first time.
Casters should make the game as fun for new viewers as possible. After all, that is where growth comes from. This encompasses many things. The clarity and manner of speech, as discussed in the OP, are important. If you can't even make out what the commentator is talking about, that won't work. But I feel that the content of the commentary is equally as important and I think Starcraft commentators are going at it the wrong way. When you look at major sports that gets played on TV, there is not much analysis going on. Most of it is play by play and hyping. The analysis only happens when a goal is scored or equivalent and there is a break in the action. That's when they show the replays from multiple angles and analyse what made that play work. I think Starcraft commentators are flooding the viewers with too much information during the cast and that just makes casual watchers confused. The analysis during game should be predominantly play by play and generating excitement; analysis can wait till the end of the game where you can use the replay feature (and have the power of foresight).
On November 07 2013 07:20 Grumbels wrote: There is also a reason that the most commonly accepted casters are USA & UK based.
Yes, and it's because those are the 2 countries with the highest amount of native English speakers in the world, so they have the highest chance to produce good English speaking casters.
I would guess that the majority of the viewers are not native English speakers, so having a non native caster, who speaks more of an "international" or "universal" English is actually easier to understand for most of us than a native speaker!
Still the problem with most non native casters today is that they don't have (in my oppinion) a strong enough command of the English language to be good play by play casters and they definitely lack the game knowledge to be good analitical ones.
Tod and Grubby are good examples of heavy accents, yet I really enjoy them in an analytical role because they know a ton about the game and can articulate it on the fly to the audience.
The main, main problem is the general philosophy that casters create the entertainmnet value. NO! The game creates the core entertainment value! But that's a different discussion.
Thanks RESOqub for showing me the issues I have had with casting, but prior to your posts could not explain why. Insightful post (overly used words on TL, but still true).
On November 08 2013 00:44 JustPassingBy wrote: You wouldn't have such a problem if you were watching sport on the television, it becomes very clear what the commentators are talking about 5 minutes into tuning in for the first time.
While I do agree, make no mistake, I don't think it is as easy with SC2. If you compare the amount of knowledge you need to appreciate most sports on TV, e.g. football, to the amount of knowledge needed even understand SC2, it comes as no surprise that general casting of the game is littered with information that can be strange or incomprehensible for the fresh viewer.
That being said, I still agree that they definitely could tone down the lingo quite a bit (your example of "Rax" versus "Barracks" is a striking one). As someone who understands the game, I certainly don't need this and I see no point in keeping it if it annoys new viewers. If we make SC2 less esoteric it will likely gather more viewers (and I believe the general consensus on this is that it is a good thing).
On topic; I have no issue with accents, at all. I do believe that the OP could be right in the context of general sports, but frankly in SC2 we simply don't have a comparable number of viewers or casters. I don't really think this theorizing is applicable at the moment.
As many have already said, I too put most weight on clarity of speech, a broad vocabulary, and a capability of sufficiently (note, without unnecessary complexity) revealing the games nuances during situations that are hard to follow. What I dislike is unnecessary shouting, too much talking about irrelevant subjects or, my personal gripe, faked enthusiasm. I have found myself not caring as much about irrelevant subjects as much as I first thought, mainly because this mostly serves to display some of the casters' personalities and, if we're lucky, some humor.
On November 07 2013 19:47 Grovbolle wrote: The list of most loved casters is laughable.
By twitter followers, what casting gigs they have, their (supposed) income and general presence in the scene I think the list is valid if one would to do an objective take on it.
Your attempt at objectivity is so flawed and the confirmation bias is so apparent, but I will bite. If we were to follow that logic, Total biscuit would be the greatest sc2 caster of all time, which is funny because he is not even on your list of casters, maybe because he has an accent? Yet he has the greatest amount of twitter followers, did a shitton of gigs especially last year and is probably one of the wealthiest guys in esports. But even so all these points can be explained away, with arrival and length of time spent in the scene, availability and salary, which makes em dumb points when it comes to arguing caster popularity.
Subjective opinions. I don't think dota 2 casters are any better. I tried watching the international, but because I don't play dota the games put me to sleep and I didn't find the casters to be anything special. At least in regards to being able to draw in a casual non dota player to watch.
Also apparently I don't exist as a caster according to OP. Ok then
Just out of interest, how would you describe your current position? Team manager? Youtube mogul? Internet Oligarch(I like this one)?
Anyway, my point was that neither you or Husky built your careers and internet popularity strictly through casting SC, and that we cannot use these numbers as an accurate measuring stick because so many people come to your channel for things other than starcraft.
And you need to cast stuff with Idra again, it was the easiest listening I've had with starcraft for years, and I usually mute streams these days because I'm too annoyed with the casters.
Also apparently I don't exist as a caster according to OP. Ok then
Just out of interest, how would you describe your current position? Team manager? Youtube mogul? Internet Oligarch(I like this one)?
Anyway, my point was that neither you or Husky built your careers and internet popularity strictly through casting SC, and that we cannot use these numbers as an accurate measuring stick because so many people come to your channel for things other than starcraft.
And you need to cast stuff with Idra again, it was the easiest listening I've had with starcraft for years, and I usually mute streams these days because I'm too annoyed with the casters.
Actually Husky very much did build his career that way. He was casting Brood War for years prior to SC2 and was (and still actually is btw) the biggest SC2 caster on Youtube by a country-mile. He's also the only one to endure from initial SC2 beta days without experiencing a gigantic drop in viewership (HD, Psy, Ahnaris and others who were more popular in beta have completely fallen off the map in terms of viewership). There's really no way you can describe Husky as anything other than a Starcraft caster. That is what he is and any "Lets Play" stuff he does is usually reserved for his second channel.
My position? I'm a games critic, that's what I do, that's where the vast majority of my revenue comes from. I cast on the side and I'm a team owner because well, I own a team. I definitely did not build my career through SC2 casting no, I brought an audience over to SC2, rather than gaining my audience from SC2. This apparently makes me a bad person in the eyes of people who I am to assume don't like to think too much.
Also apparently I don't exist as a caster according to OP. Ok then
Just out of interest, how would you describe your current position? Team manager? Youtube mogul? Internet Oligarch(I like this one)?
Anyway, my point was that neither you or Husky built your careers and internet popularity strictly through casting SC, and that we cannot use these numbers as an accurate measuring stick because so many people come to your channel for things other than starcraft.
And you need to cast stuff with Idra again, it was the easiest listening I've had with starcraft for years, and I usually mute streams these days because I'm too annoyed with the casters.
I think Husky was a Brood War enthusiast that rose to fame in the SC2 beta period. I don't think you're right at all. He did diversify afterwards, but not initially.
It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
On November 08 2013 02:37 Vicissitude wrote: Thanks RESOqub for showing me the issues I have had with casting, but prior to your posts could not explain why. Insightful post (overly used words on TL, but still true).
On November 08 2013 00:44 JustPassingBy wrote: You wouldn't have such a problem if you were watching sport on the television, it becomes very clear what the commentators are talking about 5 minutes into tuning in for the first time.
While I do agree, make no mistake, I don't think it is as easy with SC2. If you compare the amount of knowledge you need to appreciate most sports on TV, e.g. football, to the amount of knowledge needed even understand SC2, it comes as no surprise that general casting of the game is littered with information that can be strange or incomprehensible for the fresh viewer.
That being said, I still agree that they definitely could tone down the lingo quite a bit (your example of "Rax" versus "Barracks" is a striking one). As someone who understands the game, I certainly don't need this and I see no point in keeping it if it annoys new viewers. If we make SC2 less esoteric it will likely gather more viewers (and I believe the general consensus on this is that it is a good thing).
On topic; I have no issue with accents, at all. I do believe that the OP could be right in the context of general sports, but frankly in SC2 we simply don't have a comparable number of viewers or casters. I don't really think this theorizing is applicable at the moment.
As many have already said, I too put most weight on clarity of speech, a broad vocabulary, and a capability of sufficiently (note, without unnecessary complexity) revealing the games nuances during situations that are hard to follow. What I dislike is unnecessary shouting, too much talking about irrelevant subjects or, my personal gripe, faked enthusiasm. I have found myself not caring as much about irrelevant subjects as much as I first thought, mainly because this mostly serves to display some of the casters' personalities and, if we're lucky, some humor.
When did I ever say that...? O.o (edit: referring to the quote)
I don't really like this thread. I can see the merit behind it, but I don't think we're at that level where we need to start focusing on it. Aside from those "greatest of casters" I can't imagine anyone is making enough money to take the classes or go to the specialists that would be required to address these issues (though I'm personally not too concerned that they're issues). Right now the greatest casters are those with knowledge of the game, and passion for it (no, I don't think tasteless lost his passion). It's extremely hard to break into the casting scene, and look at those who have done a lot to break in there (Axeltoss comes to mind, he gets shit on constantly despite what I think is a huge desire and drive to improve).
Additionally, I hate needing to check both reddit and teamliquid to get the entire thread. So frustrating.
Husky needs more work. Dude is probably the most improved caster going back to the beginning and is actually fucking great and consistent compared to now washed up 'bigger' names (day 9, apollo, tasteless etc...)
Remember when there was this big controversy in the scene that the casters were making more money than the players? And like day9 demanded he have his own tent at dreamhack and be able to stream exclusively on his channel? God what a fucking loser....i swear that the arrogance and demands of some of the bigger name casters have hurt the scene immensely and possibly beyond repair.
Also, axslav is fucking great, get him on wcs america, PLEASE. Sorry but gretorp and that other weird dude just dont cut it i feel like im in middle school when i watch.
TB had a lot of practice and training doing things like radio and podcasting for many years, long before he started casting SC2. I think it was his real talk with JP (if i remember correctly) where he discussed his background and explains how he got so good at what he does. A lot of current casters don't have that sort of background.
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
it's not just luck, I do believe that in certain aspect, like keeping up the flow, energy, etc, Husky is by far one of the most talented casters out there... also, he is very good at adapting to the needs of his viewers (like introducing new types of content at key moments, e.g. imba league heroes when everyone felt that HotS meta got stale and the freshness and fun just got sucked out of the game). paired with a good analytical guy (like day9 used to be), he is rocking.
Also apparently I don't exist as a caster according to OP. Ok then
Just out of interest, how would you describe your current position? Team manager? Youtube mogul? Internet Oligarch(I like this one)?
Anyway, my point was that neither you or Husky built your careers and internet popularity strictly through casting SC, and that we cannot use these numbers as an accurate measuring stick because so many people come to your channel for things other than starcraft.
And you need to cast stuff with Idra again, it was the easiest listening I've had with starcraft for years, and I usually mute streams these days because I'm too annoyed with the casters.
Actually Husky very much did build his career that way. He was casting Brood War for years prior to SC2 and was (and still actually is btw) the biggest SC2 caster on Youtube by a country-mile. He's also the only one to endure from initial SC2 beta days without experiencing a gigantic drop in viewership (HD, Psy, Ahnaris and others who were more popular in beta have completely fallen off the map in terms of viewership). There's really no way you can describe Husky as anything other than a Starcraft caster. That is what he is and any "Lets Play" stuff he does is usually reserved for his second channel.
My position? I'm a games critic, that's what I do, that's where the vast majority of my revenue comes from. I cast on the side and I'm a team owner because well, I own a team. I definitely did not build my career through SC2 casting no, I brought an audience over to SC2, rather than gaining my audience from SC2. This apparently makes me a bad person in the eyes of people who I am to assume don't like to think too much.
I know this is very off-topic right here, but "famous" e-personalities are very hard to adress and I have the feeling you might read this, so bare with me here: I think the main reason some people "think of you as a bad person" is that you get back to them. A lot of your posts here, on reddit, twitter, you name it, directly adress your "haters" and that's why they feel encouraged to continue like that. I'm sure this is hard to do, but I think you would fare much better if you just ignored these people. And this is coming from someone who absolutely loves your work in all the fields you're engaged in.
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
Which would lead one to believe that there were quite a few other factors involved than vocal qualities. We can only speculate what it would have looked like if everyone had access to the same stuff.
Honestly though, the theory that somehow people will flock to a caster because of accents seems absurd, whenever ToD or Grubby are casting they got showered in praise.
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
I don't know if HDStarcraft is forgotten. I think there must be a large group of Starcraft 2 fans that never post on forums and just checks out youtube, because while Husky gets ~100k viewers per video HDStarcraft still gets ~20k viewers. A higher view count than Day[9]'s videos actually.
The numbers seem slightly suspect, so maybe I'm missing some information.
On November 08 2013 02:37 Vicissitude wrote: Thanks RESOqub for showing me the issues I have had with casting, but prior to your posts could not explain why. Insightful post (overly used words on TL, but still true).
On November 08 2013 00:44 JustPassingBy wrote: You wouldn't have such a problem if you were watching sport on the television, it becomes very clear what the commentators are talking about 5 minutes into tuning in for the first time.
While I do agree, make no mistake, I don't think it is as easy with SC2. If you compare the amount of knowledge you need to appreciate most sports on TV, e.g. football, to the amount of knowledge needed even understand SC2, it comes as no surprise that general casting of the game is littered with information that can be strange or incomprehensible for the fresh viewer.
That being said, I still agree that they definitely could tone down the lingo quite a bit (your example of "Rax" versus "Barracks" is a striking one). As someone who understands the game, I certainly don't need this and I see no point in keeping it if it annoys new viewers. If we make SC2 less esoteric it will likely gather more viewers (and I believe the general consensus on this is that it is a good thing).
On topic; I have no issue with accents, at all. I do believe that the OP could be right in the context of general sports, but frankly in SC2 we simply don't have a comparable number of viewers or casters. I don't really think this theorizing is applicable at the moment.
As many have already said, I too put most weight on clarity of speech, a broad vocabulary, and a capability of sufficiently (note, without unnecessary complexity) revealing the games nuances during situations that are hard to follow. What I dislike is unnecessary shouting, too much talking about irrelevant subjects or, my personal gripe, faked enthusiasm. I have found myself not caring as much about irrelevant subjects as much as I first thought, mainly because this mostly serves to display some of the casters' personalities and, if we're lucky, some humor.
When did I ever say that...? O.o (edit: referring to the quote)
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
I don't know if HDStarcraft is forgotten. I think there must be a large group of Starcraft 2 fans that never post on forums and just checks out youtube, because while Husky gets ~100k viewers per video HDStarcraft still gets ~20k viewers. A higher view count than Day[9]'s videos actually.
The numbers seem slightly suspect, so maybe I'm missing some information.
Day9s vods do not factor in the live viewers, his vod numbers have always been a bit on the low sid. HDs "fall" was from 200k to 20k, that's such a huge drop off. He also doesn't cast tournaments anymore and has had no real presence since IPL.
Husky ultimately endured through personality, as a lot of casters do.
However, the issue with most casters is that they .. don't sound sincere while getting excited and it ends up just being screaming and sounding fake / annoying. Only Tobi does this well in my opinion, out of all LoL / SC2 / DotA2 casters I've listened to.
One of the most surprisingly successful casters is Force Strategy or whatever it was. 270k subscribers is pretty impressive considering I've never heard him casting a tournament. Shows that you can also do well by being calm and analytical. Then again, he seems to have mostly moved on from SC2.
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
I don't know if HDStarcraft is forgotten. I think there must be a large group of Starcraft 2 fans that never post on forums and just checks out youtube, because while Husky gets ~100k viewers per video HDStarcraft still gets ~20k viewers. A higher view count than Day[9]'s videos actually.
The numbers seem slightly suspect, so maybe I'm missing some information.
Day9s vods do not factor in the live viewers, his vod numbers have always been a bit on the low sid. HDs "fall" was from 200k to 20k, that's such a huge drop off. He also doesn't cast tournaments anymore and has had no real presence since IPL.
Husky ultimately endured through personality, as a lot of casters do.
Myeah, I was just wondering since I literally never hear about HDStarcraft outside of people reminiscing about the SC2 beta, yet I felt that he was still getting acceptable numbers. But I suppose that 20k is nothing compared to 200k before. The numbers seem high to me because I'm used to seeing streamers become happy when they get over 2k viewers.
I noticed that your videos get anywhere from 100k to 400k viewers (just in the last week), whereas for Husky, Day9 & HD it was a more consistent number. I guess that's because of difference in mainstream interest in a specific topic?
On November 08 2013 05:21 Squat wrote: It's entirely possible I was wrong about Husky, I never really watched his stuff, not my cup of tea.
So the question then, is his popularity a result of some vaguely defined vocal attributes, or because he was already an established name before SC2 even came out?
His popularity is because he was one of the big 3 in SC2 beta, alongside Day9 and HD. Day9 focussed on streaming more, HD and Husky on Youtube. HD fell off sharply because he wasn't getting gigs after he lost his position at IPL and also due to a perception at the time that he was making too many incorrect calls and not keeping up with the meta. Husky was also getting all the best replays, so if you wanted to watch the coolest content at a time when there were very few tournaments, you had to watch it on Huskys channel.
I don't know if HDStarcraft is forgotten. I think there must be a large group of Starcraft 2 fans that never post on forums and just checks out youtube, because while Husky gets ~100k viewers per video HDStarcraft still gets ~20k viewers. A higher view count than Day[9]'s videos actually.
The numbers seem slightly suspect, so maybe I'm missing some information.
Day9s vods do not factor in the live viewers, his vod numbers have always been a bit on the low sid. HDs "fall" was from 200k to 20k, that's such a huge drop off. He also doesn't cast tournaments anymore and has had no real presence since IPL.
Husky ultimately endured through personality, as a lot of casters do.
Myeah, I was just wondering since I literally never hear about HDStarcraft outside of people reminiscing about the SC2 beta, yet I felt that he was still getting acceptable numbers. But I suppose that 20k is nothing compared to 200k before. The numbers seem high to me because I'm used to seeing streamers become happy when they get over 2k viewers.
I noticed that your videos get anywhere from 100k to 400k viewers (just in the last week), whereas for Husky, Day9 & HD it was a more consistent number. I guess that's because of difference in mainstream interest in a specific topic?
Husky also have a great following trough his other projects and has been extremely good at building the husky brand.
To answer other points in this thread I did not intend to put voice on a pedestal and the defining factor but rather one of the big ones, character, personality and presence is of course more important, but they are all delivered with a voice; one which can sound differentely in great amount of ways and that I do hold the current casters to a high standard, but I actually do think the standard is still too low and that in years when these will be replaced by retirement or whatever, we will try to objectively find the new casters that will be good for years to come.
In principle I think there are always people out there who can be as exciting or good as the casters now without shortcomings in voice or other areas as well. But writing about the other areas would require an article serie about the caster as a whole.
EPT![[image loading]](http://acoupletravelers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/American-casters.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01566/pavarotti_1566996c.jpg)
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I love their accent and I don't care which it is. English teacher in the company where I work is from Wales. He has gorgeous accent.
