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On November 21 2013 14:51 L3monsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 18:42 Vicissitude wrote:
~50% is huge according to me, though. I can't argue for or against it, but intuitively it feels way too much. I already thought 30% was quite a hefty advantage.
g. I very much agree so.. I always felt like 30% or even 25% was a good place. I feel like it should be implemented in sc2 or at least tried out... however they choose to do so, such as in LotV beta or by slowly adding it in like 5% ->10% and seeing what happens..
Wouldn't work in Sc2 due to how maps are designed and once again maps are designed in such a way due du how the mechanics of Sc2 works.
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On November 22 2013 17:55 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 14:51 L3monsta wrote:On November 19 2013 18:42 Vicissitude wrote:
~50% is huge according to me, though. I can't argue for or against it, but intuitively it feels way too much. I already thought 30% was quite a hefty advantage.
g. I very much agree so.. I always felt like 30% or even 25% was a good place. I feel like it should be implemented in sc2 or at least tried out... however they choose to do so, such as in LotV beta or by slowly adding it in like 5% ->10% and seeing what happens.. Wouldn't work in Sc2 due to how maps are designed and once again maps are designed in such a way due du how the mechanics of Sc2 works.
And maps are always changing and new ones come in all the time... new maps could be created to better fit high ground advantage, so your argument is kinda weak... also, I can't think of any maps we currently use that would suffer greatly with it added in.
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On November 22 2013 17:50 Vicissitude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 17:45 ejozl wrote:
I think a high ground advantage would be good, but honestly any kind of RNG system doesn't fit well with Starcraft. I'd rather see like a +1 range for units on high ground and -1 range on units shooting from low ground, or anything like this. I may make a wild assumption by saying so, but I think the general consensus is that yes, any sort of chance-based mechanic would be detrimental seeing as how you could just make high ground give you +2 armour or whatnot. It's my opinion at least, but most posts I've seen about it tends toward not using RNG.
Hey I asked for 30% damage reduction... changing unit stats is not a very good alternative to RNG, which also isn't a very good solution...
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Hello, i know it has been a while since this topic was discussed.
But seeing how LOTV might be around the corner, maybe its time Blizz and the community might take another look at this topic considering micro-ability of units in SC2 and why they feel so *klunky*.
Would you guys prefer more quick microing while sacrificing *realism in unit movement* or do you prefer that units move in a more real way but have less attack directions ?(example Mutalisk BW - SC2 attack directions or Moving Shot like the Viking video)
PS : me personally, would love to have the Air units microable like in the video , plus finally microing Stalkers/Hydras similar to Marines with less of that stop attack command delay would be epic :D
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On October 30 2014 07:26 Quateras wrote:
Hello, i know it has been a while since this topic was discussed.
But seeing how LOTV might be around the corner, maybe its time Blizz and the community might take another look at this topic considering micro-ability of units in SC2 and why they feel so *klunky*.
Would you guys prefer more quick microing while sacrificing *realism in unit movement* or do you prefer that units move in a more real way but have less attack directions ?(example Mutalisk BW - SC2 attack directions or Moving Shot like the Viking video)
PS : me personally, would love to have the Air units microable like in the video , plus finally microing Stalkers/Hydras similar to Marines with less of that stop attack command delay would be epic :D
I believe in balancing the game around maximum responsiveness of units. I think that increases the micro-skill cap a lot, and makes it more fun to play and watch. Then ofc you can add specific micro interactions for some units by reducing turn rate or the unit needs to stand still before it can attack.
Moreover, I would also love to see more synergy with protoss units and warp pirsm and zerg units and overlord drops. I think dropplay is one of the most entertaining parts of the game.
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On October 30 2014 07:26 Quateras wrote:
Hello, i know it has been a while since this topic was discussed.
But seeing how LOTV might be around the corner, maybe its time Blizz and the community might take another look at this topic considering micro-ability of units in SC2 and why they feel so *klunky*.
Would you guys prefer more quick microing while sacrificing *realism in unit movement* or do you prefer that units move in a more real way but have less attack directions ?(example Mutalisk BW - SC2 attack directions or Moving Shot like the Viking video)
PS : me personally, would love to have the Air units microable like in the video , plus finally microing Stalkers/Hydras similar to Marines with less of that stop attack command delay would be epic :D
Honestly, realism in a game like Starcraft isn't that big of a deal for me, I just want it to play well.
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Even in beta in Starcraft 2 i always felt like SC2 was more similar to warcraft 3 than BW as far as alot of micro and engagements go
In warcraft 3, units had damage ranges and the random behavior of units in sc2 sometimes creates a similar situation to war3 simply because of the RNG aspect of it:
Unit behavior enomalies in sc2 (i.e. one player happens to be attacking downard, while one upward, creating a slightly disadvantageous engagement for one of them, given equal micro and positioning) being equal to the damage range in warcraft 3 (i.e. level 1 blademaster can do between 26-48 dmg in one swing, and if he does on the high end of his damage a few times in a row the outcome of a battle can be drastically different...way more examples in war3 but besides the point)
i really like the video and in a way it supports the hypothesis i had about all of this
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Just updating people that it seems that JaKaTaK will be re-addressing this issue and is working with LaLuSh and decemberscalm. Hopefully it will catch Blizzards attention this time around for LotV
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Hope they do this AND also add another layer to how air units function.
Air units in general arent as interesting as ground units.
Maybe not necessarily both in one but some units have what the video shows and some other units have the other layer:
- Can look one straight way while moving and shoot with an ability or autoattack.
- Dodge projectles/missiles, either automatic or manually. Possible to make this very reactionary and intense in air vs air.
- Maps can have more layers of things. Gravity which causes air units not able to move there.
And more.
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Glad to see this getting bumped again!
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I wish they would consider BW-unit movement overall. Marines, Zealots, Hydras just felt way more fun to micro in BW.
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Bring the BW dance micro back! 
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My only issue with this is that the way it works now, it de-emphasizes making like 50 Mutas, because the ai for them starts to worsen as you gather a bigger flock.
Which is mb not a good way, but a way to stop ppl in making only one type of unit.
I think the same can be said for Stalker balls.
Also many who are in favour of this change are the same that appreciate the weird and almost unpredictible way that the Dragoon and Reaver works in BroodWar.
How is weird ways of acting, or something to account for different in SC2 than in BW?
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this should definately happen in lotv
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Man I gatta say, whenever I run into gem posts like these it makes me demotivated about starcraft, thinking the game could be so much better with lessons taken from BW but end up being ignored by blizzard with no clear reasoning as to why not.
Case in point : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10490039442
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On November 02 2014 13:45 Energizer wrote:Man I gatta say, whenever I run into gem posts like these it makes me demotivated about starcraft, thinking the game could be so much better with lessons taken from BW but end up being ignored by blizzard with no clear reasoning as to why not. Case in point : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10490039442
Thats really sad. Im still hopefull we will see this attempted in the Legacy of the Void alpha/beta. But I somehow doubt they will let the people test it and give feedback. It seems likely to me that they would just do this sort of thing internally and be like "We didn't see a difference so that means that you won't either. Too bad."
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On November 02 2014 15:35 Ryman20 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 13:45 Energizer wrote:Man I gatta say, whenever I run into gem posts like these it makes me demotivated about starcraft, thinking the game could be so much better with lessons taken from BW but end up being ignored by blizzard with no clear reasoning as to why not. Case in point : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10490039442 Thats really sad. Im still hopefull we will see this attempted in the Legacy of the Void alpha/beta. But I somehow doubt they will let the people test it and give feedback. It seems likely to me that they would just do this sort of thing internally and be like "We didn't see a difference so that means that you won't either. Too bad."
I see where blizzard is coming from though. They want to fight with LoL and so on, so they want sc2 to be really newb friendly for viewers. They have limited resources, so they focus on that kind of things. Ok, fine. I'm not happy myself, but I see how they think that is the best move considering their direction.
So as we will not be able to change the fundamental direction of sc2, if we want to come up with suggestions that may actually go through, let us try to build on LaLush's ideas and discuss how they can become "something a casual viewer can easily understand".
For example, is there a way to make moving shot visible for someone that has no idea about the entire concept of moving shots? Some cool animation or visual effect maybe?
Let me brainstorm a bit:
How about a little notification like the "25 XP" ones when you kill a unit, but saying "sliding shot" or something? That could be pretty cool to watch Jaedong micro his mutas and rack up series of these. Maybe even a larger orange notification if you line of 5 after each other. Pros would ofc play with these switched off, but observers would have them on. It should be on by default as well, and could be something cool for "casual players" to play around with, bragging how they lines up 15 sliding shots (while collecting 1500 minerals and no injects  ). Maybe that could be a way to give us more micro opportunities, while simultaneously giving blizzard more stuff to show sc2 watchers in training.
Yes, it will look a bit like LoL, or D3, or whatever, but we can switch it off while playing (but would you?!?), and it'll give us moving shots!
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On November 02 2014 16:52 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 15:35 Ryman20 wrote:On November 02 2014 13:45 Energizer wrote:Man I gatta say, whenever I run into gem posts like these it makes me demotivated about starcraft, thinking the game could be so much better with lessons taken from BW but end up being ignored by blizzard with no clear reasoning as to why not. Case in point : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10490039442 Thats really sad. Im still hopefull we will see this attempted in the Legacy of the Void alpha/beta. But I somehow doubt they will let the people test it and give feedback. It seems likely to me that they would just do this sort of thing internally and be like "We didn't see a difference so that means that you won't either. Too bad." I see where blizzard is coming from though. They want to fight with LoL and so on, so they want sc2 to be really newb friendly for viewers. They have limited resources, so they focus on that kind of things. Ok, fine. I'm not happy myself, but I see how they think that is the best move considering their direction. So as we will not be able to change the fundamental direction of sc2, if we want to come up with suggestions that may actually go through, let us try to build on LaLush's ideas and discuss how they can become "something a casual viewer can easily understand". For example, is there a way to make moving shot visible for someone that has no idea about the entire concept of moving shots? Some cool animation or visual effect maybe?
They could at least fix the air units stopping bug. How is that hard to understand for a casual viewer?
And LoL is a mess for a newb to watch. It doesnt have anything to do with that.
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hey guys, if anyone would post this on the bnet forums (post it again if it already exists) that would perhaps attract blizzards attention.
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On November 02 2014 16:52 Cascade wrote:
For example, is there a way to make moving shot visible for someone that has no idea about the entire concept of moving shots? Some cool animation or visual effect maybe?
It's basically stutter stepping enabled for everyone (well not really but visually it's in the same ballpark).
As far as I know, casuals "get" stutter stepping. They see a group of units firing frequently while getting away/around units that should be able to hit them.
I fail to see the issue with enabling this for more/most units on the basis that casuals wouldn't understand.
Also, isn't it the job of the casters to highlight this kind of things for the viewers? They do it for stutter stepping, they do it for splits, what's so special with 'moving shot' that they can't do the same?
And actual issue would be the balance impact of this change, but that can be addressed further down the line. Fear for balance should not be a roadblock for improvements on the game design. And making units more microable, hence raising the skill ceiling and making the game more active and exciting is an improvement on the game design. Balance can always be tweaked afterwards. It's already constantly being tweaked anyway.
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EPT
