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Great OP.
i bet the problem will come down to this...
every millisecond of latency becomes noticable without this 120 ms delay.
and when u r not running on a LAN but instead on BNet2....
we have to protect the top level decision-makers who want SC2 to be BNet2 only.
it will then get interpreted taht Blizzard is "ignoring quality feedback on TL.Net".
which is not true at all.. the Blizzard game design guys will have a hard time pretending they never contemplated this issue or read the criticism supplied in this thread.
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innnnteresting. what does it mean at 17:50 by a "functioning slowing flag?"
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I really hope that Blizzard does not just straight out ignore this. This is worthy of at least some kind of response from Blizzard, positive or negative - doesn't matter. This is a solid breakdown of arbitrary flaws upon the creation of the game, and how it could be fixed for the better.
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sexy, revealing and elevated. The banshee kiting marines part after having its 2 vars modified was one of the most sexy image I have seen from this game. I think blizzard should seriously consider some fundamental mechanic design tweak to make the game much more interesting(dota has been doing such for years) and if blizzard cant step up, some organization should support the custom map community to push the movement.
edit: just to mention, mechanic such as turn rate and acceleration has been a BIG part of dota balance process for years. There are heroes(batrider) which solely rely on these mechanic to be unique and strong. It is definitely one of the fundamental elements that make blizzard game engine so attractive compare to others.
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On October 31 2013 10:43 Popkiller wrote:
innnnteresting. what does it mean at 17:50 by a "functioning slowing flag?"
There's a movement option thingy you can check in the editor that allows you to determine what state of movement a unit must be in before it is allowed to fire. If you give ground units acceleration / deceleration, and check "slowing", they will instantly come to a stop and fire, instead of just gliding along as they fire like they should.
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I really hope this gets some serious attention from blizzard developers as Lalush in this video does the work and thinking for them by pointing out some REAL flaws in the game in terms of control and depth of utility for certain units by comparing them to their Broodwar counterparts. This is not even an argument of BW> Sc2 at this point, it's just about SC2 and how we can improve some of the staleness that we see within the game despite it's relative youthfulness compared to past comparators such as BW or WC3
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Very nice explanation, hope they change a few of those things. They're 'minor' changes that could make the game's skill ceiling a lot higher
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As per usual, I don't expect blizzard to pay attention to this critique, but I personally found it very informative and interesting.
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WOW.. just WOW! I saw how you could kite zealots ALOT easier with tanks in your suggestion! The current SC2 tank is close to useless vs zealots but after I watched this video :O BLIZZARD take notes!
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People who pays close attention to Blizzard - Community interaction, what ever happened to Nony's carrier video? Did blizzard alter anything in game afterward?
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Wait a minute. Are you guys really dissecting the micro elements of SC2 in some kind of attempt to form a solution?
Because you should be aware that SC2 was designed from the ground-up to prevent micro.
Micro is too hard for casuals. They don't like it. So the developers literally designed the game around the concept of stopping micro from happening. Think back to BW. How many spells or abilities were there that slowed an enemy unit down or forced it to stay in a certain location for some amount of time? Few, right? You could raise the chances of enemy fire missing, or put enemy units into stasis where they were pinned down but invulnerable, but there wasn't anything in the game that gave you free kills, with the exception of the Devourer which nobody ever made except Yellow and Jaedong.
In SC2 every race has at least one anti-micro spell or ability. Concussive shell, forcefield, timewarp, fungal growth, abduct, blah blah blah. Unit control only exists in SC2 up until the point that you get in range of your target. After that, the battle is over. That's why everything seems like "deathballs" mashing into each other. Once the ball is in range of the other ball, there's literally nothing you can do.
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I'd like to see a lot of LaLuSh's advice in this video implemented in LotV.
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On October 31 2013 11:09 NonY wrote:
I'd like to see a lot of LaLuSh's advice in this video implemented in LotV.
Great the man himself. Nony, did your advice on Carrier got implemented in SC2 or not?
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Canada16217 Posts
On October 31 2013 11:05 Xiphos wrote:
People who pays close attention to Blizzard - Community interaction, what ever happened to Nony's carrier video? Did blizzard alter anything in game afterward?
they implemented it not completely though
On October 31 2013 09:20 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:18 hansonslee wrote:
If we get this message out, then Blizzard might make the changes. I remember Nony made a video showcasing the difference between SC1 carriers and SC2 carriers. Now, SC2 Carriers have very similar interceptor AI to their Brood War counterpart. We should start an awareness campaign for a video like this!!! They didn't completely fix it. You have to retarget as SOON as you kill something in sc2. If interceptors start heading back it is already too late to click a new target. In BW as long as the interceptors were outside of the carrier you can retarget, and you don't have to stare at interceptors heading back to the carrier just to get launched again.
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On October 31 2013 11:09 NonY wrote:
I'd like to see a lot of LaLuSh's advice in this video implemented in LotV.
So would we all, along with a true representation of your Carrier fix.
The problem, as always, is convincing Blizzard that it's worth the time and resources invested .
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On October 31 2013 11:09 NonY wrote:
I'd like to see a lot of LaLuSh's advice in this video implemented in LotV.
A lot? But what not?
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I really like the ideas you bring up. I hope threads like this get looked at before LotV or before WC4/SC3.
Its way beyond a patchable thing imo (though I wouldn't say no to drastic ideas like this being put in, the fundamental way blizzard does balancing will make it all good in the end) but ideas like this really touch on game design questions that are very important for gameplay and could lead to a better RTS.
These ideas, a heavily nerfed warpgate revamp and buff to the gateway units, some looking at economy/workers per base/minerals per base, and perhaps a few others would be ineresting if put into LotV and could create a huge WOW THIS SC2 IS NEW AND BETTER THAN BW reaction in the community that brings hundreds of thousands back to playing and watching.
That being said, SC2 is still my favorite RTS because of its active high level scene, ladder opponent matching system (before the mmr decay for inactivity at least), and incredible balance. I just think I would have loved SC1 more if I had been as into it back during that decade of RTS. Blizzard makes the best RTS of each generation but it takes a game being fully active (the more that play it, the better it is; the more vibrant the high level scene, the better it is) for it to be the most worth playing.
Ah, I think that nails it. SC2 is by far the RTS that is most worth playing right now but I know it would be a lie to say it is the best RTS designed to date. Sadly, the best RTS designed to date is out of date. We need another golden age!
That part about how overkill prevention causes units to suddenly stop is a horrible thing. That is by far the combination of the worst parts of the unique micro aspects of sc1 and sc2: it screams a glitch and it makes the game worse. In SC1, glitches often made the game better but looked glitchy. In SC2 only rarely look glitchy but at the cost of a slight to large worsening of gameplay.
Blizzard should patch that one with no issue as it doesnt break any philosophy of 'no glitchy' actions.
I believe the turret issue is similar. In sc1, it was function in a non glitchy way and was good for micro and it looks glitchy in sc2 and is bad for micro.
Seriously, Blizzard should fix these items as a patch EASILY and without controversy and balance around the changes as the changes fit their philosophy with sc2 and add alot to gameplay:
1. Overkill prevention and/or target choice in air units such as the oracle should not cause units to bug out and fail to move.
2. Turrets on units such as the tank and immortal should track targets.
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interesting video. I'm curious how many units would have to be rebalanced after making them effectively much stronger with micro improvements (banshees are already quite dominant in tvt as it is!)
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The thread on pathing come very close to what i felt was the difference between bw and sc2, but this surprises me yet again.
Agreed with nearly all points.
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On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end?
When SC2 stops bearing the name 'Starcraft', which is never.
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EPT
