|
On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever.
I dont understand why you would say that. I mean these aspects that the video covers are better in bw, can we agree on that?
Is there any reason why you would change that? How can someone who loves sc2 for what it is say that it wouldnt be even better with those things?
I for one didnt know about those details, i only know that after watching the video i would love to see these things changed.
It isnt about bitching, its about critisism. And you know what? If anything this video shows that some people care for sc2, not the other way around.
Srsly i cant understand your bitching about it.
|
On October 31 2013 13:00 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:49 Xiphos wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written Please, don't be negative. We need to expose the truth to as much people as possible. As matter of fact, this should be featured to attain more momentum. if anything, Lalush post was nothing more than just "What we had for BW now we don't have in SC2" type of post/blog. decemberscalm's post is way better because he actually identify why we don't have these in SC2, some to do with the engine limitation.
Please take your time to cool off, read these two posts,
+ Show Spoiler +On October 31 2013 13:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. Because the goal isn't to gloat? The goal is to highlight some changes that Blizzard could do to SC2 to make it better. There are two conditions where this is useful. One, the game is not perfect. If the game is good, but not perfect, then there is always something more than can be done to make it better. And two, there is still someone with the means that is willing to make those changes. And Blizzard has committed to make one more expansion and continues to patch the game. Once that is done, there really isn't much point except talk ourselves blue in the face. But if 1) there is something to change and 2) there is someone to change it... then this isn't at all about how BW is "better." It is instead about what could make SC2 better.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 31 2013 13:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. I dont understand why you would say that. I mean these aspects that the video covers are better in bw, can we agree on that? Is there any reason why you would change that? How can someone who loves sc2 for what it is say that it wouldnt be even better with those things? I for one didnt know about those details, i only know that after watching the video i would love to see these things changed. It isnt about bitching, its about critisism. And you know what? If anything this video shows that some people care for sc2, not the other way around. Srsly i cant understand your bitching about it.
and then reflect upon your thoughts.
|
Nobel Esports Award nominee
|
On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever.
The narrative continues because the story of SC2 isn't finished yet... LotV is coming out and the OP makes clear, concise suggestions that look entirely reasonable with proper testing.
|
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please.
|
On October 31 2013 13:08 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:00 ETisME wrote:On October 31 2013 12:49 Xiphos wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written Please, don't be negative. We need to expose the truth to as much people as possible. As matter of fact, this should be featured to attain more momentum. if anything, Lalush post was nothing more than just "What we had for BW now we don't have in SC2" type of post/blog. decemberscalm's post is way better because he actually identify why we don't have these in SC2, some to do with the engine limitation. Please take your time to cool off, read these two posts, + Show Spoiler +On October 31 2013 13:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. Because the goal isn't to gloat? The goal is to highlight some changes that Blizzard could do to SC2 to make it better. There are two conditions where this is useful. One, the game is not perfect. If the game is good, but not perfect, then there is always something more than can be done to make it better. And two, there is still someone with the means that is willing to make those changes. And Blizzard has committed to make one more expansion and continues to patch the game. Once that is done, there really isn't much point except talk ourselves blue in the face. But if 1) there is something to change and 2) there is someone to change it... then this isn't at all about how BW is "better." It is instead about what could make SC2 better. On October 31 2013 13:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. I dont understand why you would say that. I mean these aspects that the video covers are better in bw, can we agree on that? Is there any reason why you would change that? How can someone who loves sc2 for what it is say that it wouldnt be even better with those things? I for one didnt know about those details, i only know that after watching the video i would love to see these things changed. It isnt about bitching, its about critisism. And you know what? If anything this video shows that some people care for sc2, not the other way around. Srsly i cant understand your bitching about it. and then reflect upon your thoughts.
please go read decemberscalm's post. There are things that are hardcoded and can't be bypassed.
if the game engine won't allow moving shot in ground unit BW style, it doesn't matter how hard you cry out etc.
There is a passionate side to things and then there is a technical side.
|
On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please.
It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work.
|
On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work.
We have been doing it for 3 years. There isn't much new to say except, unless you just want to pine for the old days. I for one am pretty much over the "learning about BW" part of my SC life and I'm moving on.
|
@ETisME
@Beakyboo
There is also engine problems he brings up. Most of the vod is talking about the bugs present for air units.
It was cut and dry, dispassionate "Look at these bugs, the units should not be doing this".
Go back to his talk about the oracle. Two oracles fly over an scv, if it is low enough health to be killed the other Oracle not dealing the killing blow just stops for some reason.
This is an unacceptable bug to be present in the engine.
The overlap of air units causing dead stops upon firing instead of decelerating if they were unstuck?
This is inconsistent behavior. Hardcoded problems with how the engine handles gliding/moving shots+overkill and also seperation radius.
Both the SC2BW AND Starbow mod use a seperation of radius of 0 because of how buggy and inconsistent micro'ing units with it on is.
Instead we use an alternate method to unstack units.
@Falling
It is possible to use custom UI like blizz uses for hero's, so there is that option. I'm not sure if its possible to put them under the units though.
|
On October 31 2013 13:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:08 Xiphos wrote:On October 31 2013 13:00 ETisME wrote:On October 31 2013 12:49 Xiphos wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written Please, don't be negative. We need to expose the truth to as much people as possible. As matter of fact, this should be featured to attain more momentum. if anything, Lalush post was nothing more than just "What we had for BW now we don't have in SC2" type of post/blog. decemberscalm's post is way better because he actually identify why we don't have these in SC2, some to do with the engine limitation. Please take your time to cool off, read these two posts, + Show Spoiler +On October 31 2013 13:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. Because the goal isn't to gloat? The goal is to highlight some changes that Blizzard could do to SC2 to make it better. There are two conditions where this is useful. One, the game is not perfect. If the game is good, but not perfect, then there is always something more than can be done to make it better. And two, there is still someone with the means that is willing to make those changes. And Blizzard has committed to make one more expansion and continues to patch the game. Once that is done, there really isn't much point except talk ourselves blue in the face. But if 1) there is something to change and 2) there is someone to change it... then this isn't at all about how BW is "better." It is instead about what could make SC2 better. On October 31 2013 13:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. I dont understand why you would say that. I mean these aspects that the video covers are better in bw, can we agree on that? Is there any reason why you would change that? How can someone who loves sc2 for what it is say that it wouldnt be even better with those things? I for one didnt know about those details, i only know that after watching the video i would love to see these things changed. It isnt about bitching, its about critisism. And you know what? If anything this video shows that some people care for sc2, not the other way around. Srsly i cant understand your bitching about it. and then reflect upon your thoughts. please go read decemberscalm's post. There are things that are hardcoded and can't be bypassed. if the game engine won't allow moving shot in ground unit BW style, it doesn't matter how hard you cry out etc. There is a passionate side to things and then there is a technical side.
Can't argue with that.
Its not like we don't have a game expansion to completely overhaul for the better.
Or else the above statement would be utterly erroneous.
|
On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work.
See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable?
And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable?
|
Been waiting for this, LaLuSh 
Great work (you too, december)!
|
On October 31 2013 13:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work. See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable? And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable?
There are few people who would say they want units to be less microable. But we can talk about that within SC2 and what needs to be changed about each unit to make it better to control. This thread doesn't do that. It just points out how great stuff was in BW and how the units could be controlled there. It barely address SC2 at all and is mostly to espouse how great BW air units were.
|
Only made it to the the non-tracking turrets section before becoming too angry to keep going at the moment. I don't know what kind of idiots at blizzard decided to make the turrets on units just there for looks instead of actually functional. It is so depressing I can't stand it.
|
I am in full support of bringing this at the attention of SC2 devs. I hope they make it work, solve the technical side of it, and make gameplay less like a typical Command and Conquer type mishmash battle. I think massing fragile but microable units adds so many dimensions to the current game. Brood War did not feel as stale when the game was figured out because there were players like Jaedong with impossible unit control that made impossible things happen. This is similar to what MarineKing did with marines early on when banelings were too strong. StarCraft II needs more of that. It makes the game more fun to watch, to learn, to play.
It makes me sad inside when there are people resistant to big changes like this because I think it will be a big step in making the game more popular. I think StarCraft deserves to die if it is less fun than its competition from other esports games. We are seeing some of that today and I dont think it will get much better in the future. Blizzard needs to directly address what would make this game more fun and keep hitting at it. This is just my opinion but I hope there is a grain of truth that sort of resonates with other people.
|
This is why SC2 looks best in the early to mid game when there are only a few units out. Once there are enough units on screen, the game just turns into an unmicroable clusterfuck. I watched the past season a little more closely and enjoyed the games featuring early aggression or all-ins a lot more. Macro games with maxed supply reduces the micro skill difference between the players.
|
On October 31 2013 13:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work. See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable? And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable? There are few people who would say they want units to be less microable. But we can talk about that within SC2 and what needs to be changed about each unit to make it better to control. This thread doesn't do that. It just points out how great stuff was in BW and how the units could be controlled there. It barely address SC2 at all and is mostly to espouse how great BW air units were.
Are you serious? He even shows that a lot of stuff can be changed in sc2 to make the units more microable.
Ofc he uses bw as an example, i mean WHY NOT??
The only thing unnecessary is the "best of bw micro" at the end, even though its great for itself
|
On October 31 2013 13:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work. See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable? And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable? There are few people who would say they want units to be less microable. But we can talk about that within SC2 and what needs to be changed about each unit to make it better to control. This thread doesn't do that. It just points out how great stuff was in BW and how the units could be controlled there. It barely address SC2 at all and is mostly to espouse how great BW air units were.
C'mon now. You're just fanboying way too much and being extremely thin-skinned about criticisms of SC2. I watched the video and saw decembercalm's posts. Almost every criticism they had of SC2, they managed to fix or work around using the editor. What else do you need? Did you even watch the video?
|
On October 31 2013 13:36 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:26 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 13:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work. See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable? And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable? There are few people who would say they want units to be less microable. But we can talk about that within SC2 and what needs to be changed about each unit to make it better to control. This thread doesn't do that. It just points out how great stuff was in BW and how the units could be controlled there. It barely address SC2 at all and is mostly to espouse how great BW air units were. C'mon now. You're just fanboying way too much and being extremely thin-skinned about criticisms of SC2. I watched the video and saw decembercalm's posts. Almost every criticism they had of SC2, they managed to fix or work around using the editor. What else do you need? Did you even watch the video?
He watched the video hes just being himself, you can find the exact post in almost every thread that might even contain the letters BW. He cringes when he hears the words BW and will automatically assume your just a BW fanboy who wants BW back.
|
well thx for doing the research and putting this video together lalush. always appreciate a fellow *helpsc2nottofadeintooblivion* guy, i guess.
i still look hopeless into the future as long as david kim as anything to say about the balance of this game unfortunatly.
and after reading some comments in this thread it seems like the ''real sc2 fans'' dont really want help anyways, they are too stupid see what is missing or could be achieved through changes like these.
it really hurts me to read those things, after pointing mechanical-, unit- and mapdesign issues out since the first day after release and ''fans'' still dont even want anything that would change it to the better is totally beyond me.
after all if starcraft 2 would not have been called starcraft it would have fade away after a few month because of his weak production value, just like every random C&C game in the last years.
the retirement of so many pros, even going back to playing bw basically the next day shows that quite clearly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
